Please give us back our Freedom(tm) at lower levels
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-12-03 09:15 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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You know, that's a very good point. A free player who is convinced by that arc to buy the game will be mightily disappointed if he expects the rest of the game to be like that.|
Originally Posted by Evangel_NA
The story of the arc was fine but imo it's a gross misrepresentation of the remainder of the game.
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Originally Posted by Evangel_NA
Calling something "Freedom" and at the same time taking away choices seems like a juicy contradiction...
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First, let's restore the memory:
- While there were 5 origin contacts, you could only talk to and get missions from one of them. So, you are not "missing 5 contacts", you are now only missing one of them, since you could only ever talk to one of them.
- Your origin contact did not have an arc. They had mostly FedEx missions, a street sweep, and at most 3 instances where you killed a few Hellions, Vahz, or Clockwork. After 3-7 disparate missions, they were done and you still might not have reached level 5 for your next set of contacts.
- That's right, when they were done with you, there were no other contacts in the 1-5 range. This means in the new current system, you are only missing that one origin contact who only had less than a handful of one-off missions for you. Everything else that was there before in the 5+ range is still there now.
- Yes, the link to your origin contacts in the 5-10 range is now broken. You have to do the 3 radios and Safeguard in Kings Row to pick up that contact and then everything will be as it was before starting at level 5.
- BTW, Level 5-10 contacts have no arcs! They have always been one-offs. So, if you're chasing down your "Origin Story," then keep in mind there are no cohesive arcs for your Origin until level 10 in Steel Canyon, and even then, only Tech, Natural, and Science get an arc.
- So the hyperbole here of THEY TOOK AWAY MAH FREEDUM!!! is this: one contact was removed and you have to do a safeguard to get the introduction that one contact used to give. In its place, they added a trial, and three beginners' arcs (you get to do two), as well as three Tutorial arcs. Freedom absconded indeed!
See here.
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And when you're done with the new arcs, you've driven out all the Longbow from Fort Darwin, it's now permanently occupied by Arachnos (thanks to phasing tech), you're considered an up and coming Badass by Arachnos rather than some lackey, and you didn't have to do a dozen repetitive snake missions.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Original poster, you oughtta be a villain. Its horrible.
Fort Darwin belongs to Longbow now. Fortunata Kalinda and Arbiter Diaz are both gone from their plinths. Perhaps they are still somewheres in the zone.... I don't have the heart to search. Fort Darwin belonging to Longbow is like Al Quaeda taking over the White House: its just wrong on so many levels. I almost wanted to stage an Occupy Fort Darwin.  |
So... how is that worse?
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I always respect your posts on this forum, Zomb, so I want to reply to the contrary without intending any snarkiness. It's just that the choice I am talking about losing is the one made during character creation, when you select an origin and therefore a unique origin-based set of missions. Even if not an official arc, it was a few missions that were not the same as the ones I had run with the last character (unless I chose the same origin accidentally).|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
While there were 5 origin contacts, you could only talk to and get missions from one of them. So, you are not "missing 5 contacts", you are now only missing one of them, since you could only ever talk to one of them.
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I didn't intend hyperbole, just to point out the fact that I no longer have a choice of what to do from 1-5 if I want to do actual missions instead of fast-track or random stuff. As someone else mentioned above, what possible reason could there be to remove the origin missions instead of just giving the new stuff as an option?
Oh yeah... That, and to complain about the abomination that comprises Twinshot's arcs, of course. :-)
You didn't really have a choice before, unless you just don't care if your origin matches your character concept or not. And choosing your origin based on a single introductory contact you'll be done with in 30 minutes seems a little silly.
It was an illusion of choice, nothing more.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Apparently not yet mentioned in this thread: there is a technical reason why the starting content was revamped. Instances add load to the server. Replacing the instanced missions from the old 1-5 contacts with the new arcs that have fewer instances reduces the server load from the expected influx of Free and Premium players rolling new characters.
As for my personal opinion: the old 1-5 arcs were bad, and the new 1-5 arc is bad. But the new Sewer trial is fun and easy.
@SPTrashcan
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Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
eh, I dont see the reason for all the hate on the new stuff.
The trial makes it so you can be lvl 10 in like 15 minutes. if you dont ike to run the new contact, wait for a dfb for a few minutes in atlas and then proceed to Steel Canyon.
Twinshot and crew- it is true there are some annoying traits, but really, they fianally wrote personality into the characters there. It's all personal preference if you laugh or cry or get mad at the dialogue. IMO I cringe and hated when Rogue of the X-men said "shugah" or other cliche southern dialogue, enough that I had a negative response to seeing her as part of a comic. but lot's of people like Rogue, so whatevs- its all opinion.
i will say, manticore is a total asswipe. I wouldnt take that **** from anyone in real life, even if odds were aginst me or I was ganged up on or whatever, and it does bother me there is no option to tell him such in the game. All you get is "Oh ok! me so dumb, thanks for money super manticore!!" So yeah, that lack of choice does bother me some.
Bottom line, when I played through the twinshot arcs I did think to myself "there is a solid amount of basic info here for new players" and also " Wow, they really did a good job writing some personality into this group for a change". I also found the writing on Matt's arc to be good enough I really did want to help the guy find his wife. So, all in all, I think the new stuff is a success and i look forward to seeing more detailed stuff like this expanded into higher lvls, and alternative low level stuff, maybe with a different group to work with, brought in.
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IIRC, its because of door missions. Most characters dont make it past something like level 10, and having them constantly spawning door missions used up alot of server space or something.
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Originally Posted by Evangel_NA
Add new content, that's fine. But take content away?? Why??
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Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
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There really was no choice. As Zombie posted, there was no actual story arc. Each of the five contacts passed out pretty much the same set of missions. "Hey, superhero, go here and fight these guys. All done? Do it again over here, now."|
Originally Posted by CinnderScot
I always respect your posts on this forum, Zomb, so I want to reply to the contrary without intending any snarkiness. It's just that the choice I am talking about losing is the one made during character creation, when you select an origin and therefore a unique origin-based set of missions. Even if not an official arc, it was a few missions that were not the same as the ones I had run with the last character (unless I chose the same origin accidentally).
I didn't intend hyperbole, just to point out the fact that I no longer have a choice of what to do from 1-5 if I want to do actual missions instead of fast-track or random stuff. As someone else mentioned above, what possible reason could there be to remove the origin missions instead of just giving the new stuff as an option? |
And there is a good reason they dropped the stuff entirely instead of keeping it in for the two players that actually would run it. The old stuff was crap in terms of storyline (there was none) and gameplay (fed ex missions and clear alls filled with the same enemy group over and over). You don't want to wave around crap to a bunch of new players and say "Hey, this is our game! Please stick around!" There's a reason why everyone starting out back in the day chose to do sewer runs and you never saw "Running Tech Origin arc. PST" over broadcast.
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I'm truly curious: Was there any one of these missions from one of these Original contacts that you particularly miss? Can you even remember one of them? I can't.
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Originally Posted by CinnderScot
I always respect your posts on this forum, Zomb, so I want to reply to the contrary without intending any snarkiness. It's just that the choice I am talking about losing is the one made during character creation, when you select an origin and therefore a unique origin-based set of missions. Even if not an official arc, it was a few missions that were not the same as the ones I had run with the last character (unless I chose the same origin accidentally).
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I liked the Dyne map and the Cult map, but we have them in AE so huzzah.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
I'm truly curious: Was there any one of these missions from one of these Original contacts that you particularly miss? Can you even remember one of them? I can't.
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In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
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I remember the superadine lab and also the challenge of all the Vahz mishs at those early levels (sometimes frustrating, but fun in that they weren't a pushover and forced me to think). I also liked the way you were introduced to a particular group of enemies with bits of their background unveiled as you went along, instead of the quick holo versions with a comment from Twinshot that you get now if you run her 2nd arc.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
I'm truly curious: Was there any one of these missions from one of these Original contacts that you particularly miss? Can you even remember one of them? I can't.
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But, as I said in my original post, though they weren't the best, and we have had some examples of much better writing in other areas since then (like all the early Praetorian content), at least I had a choice and wasn't forced to run the same stuff every time. It's the choice I miss the most, which (as someone else stated above) is ironic in a game called Freedom.
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This is actually a good point. |
Originally Posted by G_Savior
Twinshot talking down to you? Gee, it's not like she's a veteran from a secret military organization while your some fresh faced hero.
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The game doesn't care if you have a backstory that states your character is 4,000 years old and the ruler of his own dimension. As far as the game is concerned, you are a beginning hero. Period. (or Full Stop for our British/Aussie/Kiwi friends)
She's talking down to you the same way a drill sergeant in any military on Earth talks down to a brand new recruit.
Flambeaux is written like she is on purpose. By seeing how annoying and self-absorbed she is now her appearances in tip missions later in the game make a lot more sense. She's not a hero so she can help people, she's a hero because she wants fame and glory. Which is the wrong reason to be a hero.
I also got the irony in some of the characters. Dillo I interpreted as a hardcore roleplayer that NEVER breaks character. Grym is a refugee from a fantasy MMO. (one guess as to which one).
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| They are definitely a step up from most characters blueside, I think most of the hate comes from the 'NCsoft didn't write the dialogue to fit my character! this arc is terrible!' folk |
I'm getting a sense of "But....my character wouldn't DO that!" .........as though the game can tell what your character would or wouldn't do. Again, the beginning arcs are told from the assumption that your character is a brand new just-registered hero. Your first taste of action was the disaster in Galaxy City, and you're entering Atlas Park as an inexperienced newbie.
It's an MMO, and it kind of has to be pretty much the same for everyone. If they spent the time to ensure that the beginning story arcs fit each and every possible character created in the game, well, it would be years before we saw even a single new story arc released. (And people would STILL complain that there wasn't an option appropriate to their character)
I really don't see what the big deal is about the beginning arcs being gone. They were badly written, and introduced you to the "run over here and click on this guy, then run back and go somewhere else" mechanic that the game was designed on originally.
How many variations of "go beat up some Hellions" do you really NEED to get you from 1-5?
Also, don't forget that the new beginning of the game is designed for people who will only have 2 characters to run through it, unless they pony up some cash for more character slots. They aren't going to be running 30 different brand new characters through it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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That's to avoid breaking any characters that may still have missions from those contacts from before Freedom went live.
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Originally Posted by Dante
I also don't get why all the contacts were moved from Galaxy, retained their contact rings and yet do nothing. I think only Azuria takes part in later missions.
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Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
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Well, I think there are degrees to it. The original arcs treated you as new to the City, not new to life. And that's sort of the problem is that it's treating you as a different degree of 'new', where before it was vague enough that sure, you could be a 4,000 year old deity exiled to this plane that has to regrow his power or a 16 year old that just realized their mutant powers. It didn't really matter what your backstory was, you were now arriving in Paragon City and they were introducing you to the place. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I am inclined to agree. I'm getting a sense of "But....my character wouldn't DO that!" .........as though the game can tell what your character would or wouldn't do. Again, the beginning arcs are told from the assumption that your character is a brand new just-registered hero. Your first taste of action was the disaster in Galaxy City, and you're entering Atlas Park as an inexperienced newbie. It's an MMO, and it kind of has to be pretty much the same for everyone. If they spent the time to ensure that the beginning story arcs fit each and every possible character created in the game, well, it would be years before we saw even a single new story arc released. (And people would STILL complain that there wasn't an option appropriate to their character) I really don't see what the big deal is about the beginning arcs being gone. They were badly written, and introduced you to the "run over here and click on this guy, then run back and go somewhere else" mechanic that the game was designed on originally. How many variations of "go beat up some Hellions" do you really NEED to get you from 1-5? Also, don't forget that the new beginning of the game is designed for people who will only have 2 characters to run through it, unless they pony up some cash for more character slots. They aren't going to be running 30 different brand new characters through it. |
The new intro really pidgeon holes you. You are, for whatever reason, some random nobody that was hanging out in Galaxy City when the meteors struck and you have to get out, in the process receiving super powers from a fallen hero, either by contact helping him or stealing them yourself. And then the rest of the introduction arcs treat you as the fresh faced youngster looking to prove themselves.
For all the ills of the original contacts and intro missions/tutorials, they were intentionally vague enough to allow for any kind of hero or villain to enter the scene. The new stuff really doesn't do that, it pegs you as a human (try playing a bot or something from the animal pack) and new to the world. Something like a 4,000 year old ex-deity can still be 'new to heroing', not 'new to life'.
Then again we can always still just start a Praetorian, which honestly has the better tutorial right now, even if Praetoria is a ghost town.
I find it odd that you don't get a temp power for taking Blue Spectrum's power (if you chose to be a Villain) >.> Though I'm still not sure how you steal his powers in the first place...
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IMO, if you're a "4,000 year old deity" that is coming into Paragon City, as a level 2 character (assuming you've done the tutorial) you are 'new to life' again. A new world, a lack of followers and power, and a lot of different super powered beings that are a much stronger than you are means you are going to have a lot of new things to learn and adapt to.|
Originally Posted by Agent White
And that's sort of the problem is that it's treating you as a different degree of 'new', where before it was vague enough that sure, you could be a 4,000 year old deity exiled to this plane that has to regrow his power or a 16 year old that just realized their mutant powers.
The new intro really pidgeon holes you. You are, for whatever reason, some random nobody that was hanging out in Galaxy City when the meteors struck and you have to get out, in the process receiving super powers from a fallen hero, either by contact helping him or stealing them yourself. And then the rest of the introduction arcs treat you as the fresh faced youngster looking to prove themselves. |
As far as the the pigeon holing, that's just in the optional intro comic; you don't even have to read it if you don't want to. Besides, even if you do, that comic isn't referenced in the rest of the tutorial, or the rest of the game for that matter. All the game treats it as is that you were in Galaxy City at the time of the attack, and either helped out and stayed to help more, or helped out and threw in with Arachnos. Also, you don't receive your superpowers from the fallen hero, he absorbs some strength from you (or you take it from him, if you go Redside). You either give him a wakie, or gank him.
All that leaves is the 'proving yourself' thing which, as a new character, yes, you'll have to do. It was the same in the old tutorial and beginning missions, it's the same now, with the added bonus of setting up a storyline that actually goes all the way to 15-20 (so, you know, it seems like a continuous lead-up rather than a bunch of one-shots).
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That's the point. I DON'T remember them. There were enough of them that I never ended up running the same missions twice in a row, and I didn't and don't make that many new characters, so every time I started playing the old missions, I'd forgotten what they were about. Because I didn't remember, I was inspired to read the mission text and experience the missions anew.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
I'm truly curious: Was there any one of these missions from one of these Original contacts that you particularly miss? Can you even remember one of them? I can't.
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I remember Matthew Habshy's dialogue almost by heart, because when Freedom hit, I made a couple of new characters and they all ran the same content. When I was a child, my literature teacher had us memorise poetry. The way I did it was to simply read the poem in question again and again and again until I could repeat it off memory. I don't quite know the starting content word-for-word yet, but I know its plot with pinpoint precision.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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And that's a mistake, as far as I'm concerned. I get being treated like my character is weak. That's a prerequisite of the powers system, and I can come up with reasons for why he's lost his powers temporarily.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The game doesn't care if you have a backstory that states your character is 4,000 years old and the ruler of his own dimension. As far as the game is concerned, you are a beginning hero. Period. (or Full Stop for our British/Aussie/Kiwi friends)
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I don't get being treated like I'm stupid, or "inexperience" as is the excuse. Being a newly-registered hero does not mean you haven't seen action and you can't think for yourself. It just means you're weak, and that's only because of how our powers system works.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
How many variations of "go beat up some Hellions" do you really NEED to get you from 1-5?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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You know, I gotta say - and I mean this as no slight against you personally - but I'm tired of the "reduce lag/server space/random technical comment" excuse that is being used by the devs for everything lately. So worried about their precious freebies that they limit our pet spawning ability (something earned as a vet for the years they have spent paying the devs) and if this is honestly a reason for removing contacts because of the few missions they spawn the excuse is getting lame.|
Originally Posted by CommunistPenguin
IIRC, its because of door missions. Most characters dont make it past something like level 10, and having them constantly spawning door missions used up alot of server space or something.
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The launch of Freedumb has hardly boosted CoH's server load to an extent that content needs to be removed to prevent lag or save space. I've played on two of the three heaviest traffic load servers and have never seen numbers of players that even approached the load the game had at launch - and we never had particularly frustrating instances of lag at launch beyond those kind of early bugs that all MMOs have.
So the "reduce lag" excuse imo has become the corporate answer to everything and I'm sorry but I'm not buying it. Not when one of the most lag-inducing content is the iTrial farms that we are so heavily encouraged to play non-stop. Let's take lag away from the early content to trick those freebies into becoming ViP and then encourage them to lag out with iTrial content... sounds legit.
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Not just the particular maps that others have mentioned but it was the idea of who you were fighting that stuck out to me. The point of the origin-specific content was that it gave you a small sense of character. I know not everyone takes all of the origin stuff into account when making their character and not everyone takes time to write a four paragraph bio for their character when they create them - and that's fine, as said multiple times already, there are other options for people who are more fast-tracked - but for those that do it's nice to step out of the gate with your hero and do something that is in line with the origin of your character.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
I'm truly curious: Was there any one of these missions from one of these Original contacts that you particularly miss? Can you even remember one of them? I can't.
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So it's not a particular map or mission, it's that if I make a science hero I get a science story, if make a magic hero I get a magic story, etc.
The biggest argument I see against this complaint in this thread is that "the missions suck, who cares, you get better missions/xp/blah blah blah now" but that totally misses the point of the OPs comment. It's just about having some flavor and some choice.
For 7 years the player base has complained that there is a lack of variety in the content, and the devs have spent 7 years addressing that by adding more and more content. But if you're trying to convince people to play this game, forcing the same content on every new character just comes off as a grind - and it's going to turn more people away than it recruits. Unless the object of the new game experience is to recruit farmers.
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Well, that's just like your opinion man.|
Originally Posted by Evangel_NA
You know, I gotta say - and I mean this as no slight against you personally - but I'm tired of the "reduce lag/server space/random technical comment" excuse that is being used by the devs for everything lately. So worried about their precious freebies that they limit our pet spawning ability (something earned as a vet for the years they have spent paying the devs) and if this is honestly a reason for removing contacts because of the few missions they spawn the excuse is getting lame.
The launch of Freedumb has hardly boosted CoH's server load to an extent that content needs to be removed to prevent lag or save space. I've played on two of the three heaviest traffic load servers and have never seen numbers of players that even approached the load the game had at launch - and we never had particularly frustrating instances of lag at launch beyond those kind of early bugs that all MMOs have. So the "reduce lag" excuse imo has become the corporate answer to everything and I'm sorry but I'm not buying it. Not when one of the most lag-inducing content is the iTrial farms that we are so heavily encouraged to play non-stop. Let's take lag away from the early content to trick those freebies into becoming ViP and then encourage them to lag out with iTrial content... sounds legit. |
Also,
Hamidon Raid Lag > iTrial lag
Ever done a LRSF w/ stacked Vengeance with most of the team having Shivans, while bombarding the Freedom Phalanx w/ Chemical Burn Nukes? Yeah, that lag > iTrial lag.
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Except that, again, unless you chose your origin specifically to get a particular starting contact, you don't actually have a choice. Flavor, I'll grant you, but again we're talking about levels 1-5 here. Not a whole lot of time spent or flavor available.|
Originally Posted by Evangel_NA
The biggest argument I see against this complaint in this thread is that "the missions suck, who cares, you get better missions/xp/blah blah blah now" but that totally misses the point of the OPs comment. It's just about having some flavor and some choice.
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The real choice comes when you start picking contacts. "See this guy in Kings Row, he's been dealing with the Clockwork and Skulls," or "See David Wincott in the Hollows" or "See this woman in Atlas, she's been handling the Hellions." There's your freedom to choose, and none of that has been taken away.
Yeah, in some respects the game has been made more linear. I miss Galaxy, I used to start most of my characters there. But in some respects, linearity is a good thing, particularly when we're talking about a new player experience. You've got to get newbies a solid grounding in the game first before turning them loose, or they're going to get confused or bored and walk away. Veterans should be spending so little time in Atlas that it's really not a big issue -- not because they're powerleveling, but because they know how to play the game. On the whole, this is just small potatoes.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
I like the new Arc better then the old Arc's, now today's things are better, New character are Enjoyable. There are no more boring low lvling Contacts any more, What we do need are more low lvl Contact now.
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I would like to put out a plug for arcs by @Khonshu |
Originally Posted by CinnderScot
I wish that were the case. That's exactly what I tried, but the Find Contact button gave me only Habashy (even though I had completed all his content) and Wincott.
Thanks for the AE offer, Vox. If you know of some good ones for anywhere in the 1-10 range, please feel free to post them here. Still, I wish the people who actually got paid for this would give us some decent choice of low level content. |
Khonshu redid the early into arcs. Well plotted and a great deal of fun.
Enjoy your day please.
I don't understand how you can hate the SSAs when they have more personality than the entire phalanx combined.
Twinshot talking down to you? Gee, it's not like she's a veteran from a secret military organization while your some fresh faced hero.
They are definitely a step up from most characters blueside, I think most of the hate comes from the 'NCsoft didn't write the dialogue to fit my character! this arc is terrible!' folk