What are you expecting for a solo Incarnate path?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-11-17 20:47 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Well I'm expecting a very 'First Ward' style set up with several long mission arcs, and, if First Ward is any indication, completing the Zone story will take a lot of time. Even 3-4 hour chunks at a time First Ward still took me a few days to get through all the way.
So I'm kind of expecting the same for Dark astoria, and I imagine the incarnate Merits and Salvage will be awarded at the conclusion of the finales, like merit rewards are given for lower level content now. Maybe something awarded for an Elite Boss/Archvillain somewhere in there too.
Otherwise you'll be left with street sweeping and the repeatable missions and those only award threads, which are *definitely* the slow path when it comes to crafting components (compare E-merit costs to purely thread constructed components).
Though I am kind of hoping for a zone event or two too, something like the Seed of Hamidon only, you know, not so gimmicky and pointlessly needed a league. A Giant Monster type critter that takes about 5-8 people to take down (on average, maybe fewer, there's obviously always the folks that can solo a GM).
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Like Adamastor? |
Originally Posted by Agent White
A Giant Monster type critter that takes about 5-8 people to take down
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Ya, it's a tricky balance. It's even trickier to balance after the fact that one of the avenues exists.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
That's where you're getting into "glass half empty", and also where perhaps I disagree with Kitsune about whether the "solo" route has to "suck" compared to the iTrials.
The solo can't be as rewarding/time as the trials, or the devs have avoided robbing Peter by pulling the rug out from under Paul completely. Does that mean the solo route has to be crap? No. It should be permissible that it's good enough to draw some people away from iTrials, but not all of them, or probably even most of them. Most of the people who hate iTrials will go to the solo route unless its reward rates absolutely atrocious, and I think that's OK. |
It needs to have a progression rate that feels meaningful to the audience.
I think there is good potential for the iTrials to still generally be a better option with the newer trials giving E-Merits on every run, as well as the 'longer' trials giving guaranteed Rare+. It's something that'll have to be tested and probably watched after it goes live in case re-evaluation is necessary.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
For an extreme counter example, consider what happened when the AE first came out and was a wilderness of exploits so amazing, nearly anyone could PL at some of the best rates ever seen to date, not even including the handful of things that could get people to 50 in hours.
People poured in the doors. Do we think that was because they really liked the AE missions better? I don't think that. I think they did it because what they all really liked was the rate at which they dinged, because seeing the XP bubbles fill in and the level counter go up that fast makes a lot of people giddy. |
I know personally, leveling a character through to the ~40 is a drain on my willpower, and often why my alts don't get that far. I just don't like repeating the low level content that much. I can easily get to 10 now with the new missions [yay for me :x], then grind through sewer trials.
Let's Dance!
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There might need to be a guarnteed rare or very rare for completing the full zone storyline, otherwise it could be a bit rough to spend a few hours playing through it, only to have the RNG give out a common or uncommon at the end.
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Originally Posted by reiella
Ya, it's a tricky balance. It's even trickier to balance after the fact that one of the avenues exists.
It needs to have a progression rate that feels meaningful to the audience. I think there is good potential for the iTrials to still generally be a better option with the newer trials giving E-Merits on every run, as well as the 'longer' trials giving guaranteed Rare+. It's something that'll have to be tested and probably watched after it goes live in case re-evaluation is necessary. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I believe content should stand on its own merits. You all seem to accept that the I-Trials are lacking but think that the solution is to drag other aspects of the game down to keep these above water. Which is because you all know in your heart of hearts that the I-Trails are being kept alive by people playing them for the rewards, not for FUN.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Feel free to enlighten me.
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I seem to be the only person that thinks thats mad.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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There are plenty of people who play the trials for fun. There are also people who play just for the rewards. Welcome to the game.
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Originally Posted by Jagged
I believe content should stand on its own merits. You all seem to accept that the I-Trials are lacking but think that the solution is to drag other aspects of the game down to keep these above water. Which is because you all know in your heart of hearts that the I-Trails are being kept alive by people playing them for the rewards, not for FUN.
I seem to be the only person that thinks thats mad. |
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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I also beleive content should stand on its own merits.|
Originally Posted by Jagged
I believe content should stand on its own merits. You all seem to accept that the I-Trials are lacking but think that the solution is to drag other aspects of the game down to keep these above water.
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I do not beleive that other aspects of the game should be dragged down.
I do beleive that each aspect of the game should be optimized for appeal to its' target audience.
I also beleive that if the solo path has too many elements that appeal to iTrial organizers, that will be bad for the game overall.
I beleive that should be kept in mind as the content is produced.
The idea is to have two healthy, appealling, parallel methods of advancement, instead of one that is healthy at the expense of the other ...the exact opposite of what you take me to mean.
iTrials: Speed of Incarnate Advancement, strategic difficulty that requires teams, foes that require a variety of powers and large numbers to face, a minimum of text reading/exploring, closely timed tasks that require team coordination, etc
solo: Large, beautiful areas with lots of hidden easter eggs, npc interaction with long and complex dialogue trees that affect their future actions and attitudes, lots of things to click for backstory, multiple missions that fit together to solve mysteries, moral choices, zone-affecting player triggered events, one-on-one duels with powerful foes, etc
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
One potential side effect of the DA content is that it might increase the amount of IXP and salvage required for the next few slots - right now, it seems that Incarnate progress is balanced around the rate we can earn IXP and salvage during the Trials, inclduing the time it takes a league together - but the DA content will massively reduce the "dead" reward time between Trials, so players who play all the Incarnate content will be earning IXP and salvage quite a bit faster than they currently do just by playing the Trials - which could lead to the next few slots having their unlock and enhancement requirements increased.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
An alternative to that could be time-gating zone and trial rewards differently.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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I usually only blame the Ebil Marketing Soots when bug-ridden software with missing content is released too soon.
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Originally Posted by Olantern
it's all the Ebil Marketing Soots fault, etc.
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Yes and no, it's a balancing act. The problem is that if solo content is to rewarding on a rewards per time basis it will potentially kill trials. Not because the trials themselves are bad but because the extra setup time means that their total rewards per time ends up to low to make it worth going to the trouble. The big appeal of solo content is that you can jump in and start going immediately whereas for teamed content you need to wait to find a team first which for most people is not a particularly interesting experience.|
Originally Posted by Jagged
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Now personally I suspect I'll end up doing both types of content. I have several strong soloers that I will probably use for the solo content when I don't want to commit to a team and then spend the other time teaming.
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Mmm, no, something worth more than 2 merits and meant to be taken on by incarnates. As it stands, Adamastor is a dogpile fight like most of the other GMs. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Like Adamastor?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
One potential side effect of the DA content is that it might increase the amount of IXP and salvage required for the next few slots - right now, it seems that Incarnate progress is balanced around the rate we can earn IXP and salvage during the Trials, inclduing the time it takes a league together - but the DA content will massively reduce the "dead" reward time between Trials, so players who play all the Incarnate content will be earning IXP and salvage quite a bit faster than they currently do just by playing the Trials - which could lead to the next few slots having their unlock and enhancement requirements increased.
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As for 'more' salvage that depends entirely on what the devs end up deciding to do. They don't *want* a new currency but they also want to avoid Day 1 unlocks with all the hoarded salvage floating around now.
Then again for all we know they might just decide to gate the next slot behind a Remiel style arc for those that've unlocked everything up to that point.
As for 'more' salvage, that depends entirely on
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A revamped Adamastor might be different |
Originally Posted by Agent White
Mmm, no, something worth more than 2 merits and meant to be taken on by incarnates. As it stands, Adamastor is a dogpile fight like most of the other GMs.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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From what they've said, the big zombie isn't getting a makeover so much as his place in the pecking order is from 'one of the top dogs' to 'a lieutenant'. That is, the implication I got was that the Banished Pantheon will be seeing bigger scarier things added to its ranks to represent its upper echelons.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
A revamped Adamastor might be different
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This sounds great for a first run through, but if we're to repeat it multiple times for i-progress, then they need to bear in mind that even soloists like to avoid repetition of long dialogue sections/zone runarounds/cutscenes. I'm hoping that the progression through the content is more like Faultline's arcs than First Ward's. Having to repeat FW all the way through multiple times for i-progress, with its appalling style of narrative delivery, would be a disaster imo. |
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
solo: Large, beautiful areas with lots of hidden easter eggs, npc interaction with long and complex dialogue trees that affect their future actions and attitudes, lots of things to click for backstory, multiple missions that fit together to solve mysteries, moral choices, zone-affecting player triggered events, one-on-one duels with powerful foes, etc |
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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fun is not a quantifiable sum. reward for time invested is not something to be taken lightly. why do you think the katie hannon tf was so popular when it was able to be rushed for good rewards, or why people do that now with the lgtf? because rewards, for long term play are what motivate people.
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Originally Posted by Jagged
I believe content should stand on its own merits. You all seem to accept that the I-Trials are lacking but think that the solution is to drag other aspects of the game down to keep these above water. Which is because you all know in your heart of hearts that the I-Trails are being kept alive by people playing them for the rewards, not for FUN.
I seem to be the only person that thinks thats mad. |
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
I'm hoping that the progression through the content is more like Faultline's arcs than First Ward's. Having to repeat FW all the way through multiple times for i-progress, with its appalling style of narrative delivery, would be a disaster imo.
Eco |
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Idon't mean the actual story itsrlf. I'm referring to the way that the FW arcs make you run around back and forth talking to NPCs over and over for no XP and presrnt interminable dialogue boxes etc. Imo FW needed an editor badly. Playing it through once for the story was ok (but personally i found a bit meh at best), but if I had to repeat it as is over and iver for i-progress, I don't think I'd bother. I play through the Faultline content again happily, though, as it seems to be able to deliver an enjoyable story witjout too much 'wasted time' spent reading walls o text or doing zone runarounds.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
fun is not a quantifiable sum. reward for time invested is not something to be taken lightly. why do you think the katie hannon tf was so popular when it was able to be rushed for good rewards, or why people do that now with the lgtf? because rewards, for long term play are what motivate people.Ok, i have no idea what this means. are your referring to the darker story? i cna see nothing at all appaling with fw's story, and in fact prefer the darker , grittier nature to ..well a lot of current content, but please explain what exactly you mean. Presuemable da will be a story about people fighting a ancient god of death, a powerful group of eastern sorcerers and followers of a group of exiled deities, im guessing it will have dark elements but otherwise be about heroes stomping the big bad and villians stealing some of its power for their own.
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Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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To be fair you did say the solo route should "suck" for people that like the iTrial. That aside I can completely agree with this post.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
The idea is to have two healthy, appealling, parallel methods of advancement, instead of one that is healthy at the expense of the other ...the exact opposite of what you take me to mean.
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This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
Im glad to hear this
i like the trials ok an every thing but.. on nights when im the only one online. or when i get tired of begging to join a trial i would like to work toward my "God Hood " on some solo content
also i have freinds who's computers cant handle all of the goings on of a full league with all the purple force bubbles , fire rains ,hurricanes and slobbering demons so it would be nice to small team incarnite stuff with them since everyone cant afford 8 gigs of memory and a uber high end vid card
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Most of my Incarnates have not spent an Astral or Empyrean merit in months. They are all T3 or better in every slot. Yet, I still do the trials. Please speak for yourself.
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Originally Posted by Jagged
I believe content should stand on its own merits. You all seem to accept that the I-Trials are lacking but think that the solution is to drag other aspects of the game down to keep these above water. Which is because you all know in your heart of hearts that the I-Trails are being kept alive by people playing them for the rewards, not for FUN.
I seem to be the only person that thinks thats mad. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
What bothers me about these arguments for much lesser rewards for solo/small-team play to induce more people to join large team play so the others will have enough people to play with is that is treats the solo/small-teamers as tools to satisfy the needs of others. I consider this dehumanizing and unethical, and always will. And I say this as a person who happily joins large teams commonly.
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It's not that serious. The devs are just trying to enhance a sense of community.|
Originally Posted by Ardrea
What bothers me about these arguments for much lesser rewards for solo/small-team play to induce more people to join large team play so the others will have enough people to play with is that is treats the solo/small-teamers as tools to satisfy the needs of others. I consider this dehumanizing and unethical, and always will. And I say this as a person who happily joins large teams commonly.
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Sure some people hate large grouping and always will. Others will embrace it and find new playstyles and friends. MMORPGs are and are intended to be social constructs. The devs will always be looking for ways to create incentives to be social. That doesn't mean soloing is being punished. It means grouping is being rewarded.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I am, but the current "tide" or "feeling" in this thread seemed to be saying that solo incarnate content had to offer less reward than the i-trials otherwise no one would do them. If you disagree that's great.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Most of my Incarnates have not spent an Astral or Empyrean merit in months. They are all T3 or better in every slot. Yet, I still do the trials. Please speak for yourself.
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This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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I don't see 'less' I see 'slower'. Which I agree with. If soloing is as fast as the trials, then that's all anyone will do. Some folks play solely for rewards. They would do whatever is the most efficient. Soloing is inherently more efficient than grouping which is why every MMORPG gives grouping advantages over soloing.|
Originally Posted by Jagged
I am, but the current "tide" or "feeling" in this thread seemed to be saying that solo incarnate content had to offer less reward than the i-trials otherwise no one would do them. If you disagree that's great.
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We can argue until we're blue in the face, but you know and I know that the trials will always be faster and more efficient than soloing. That's not my opinion, it's the devs.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
If those aren't virtually identical groups, then there exists a problem.
People poured in the doors. Do we think that was because they really liked the AE missions better? I don't think that. I think they did it because what they all really liked was the rate at which they dinged, because seeing the XP bubbles fill in and the level counter go up that fast makes a lot of people giddy.
Replace that with seeing Threads drop and reward tables appear, and of course tone down the insanity about 10 notches, and we still have the same kinds of behavior. People will go wherever they think they'll progress fastest, and how much they enjoy the window dressing becomes a largely secondary concern.
The devs have to think about these things. In an ideal world, yes, they should make the iTrials and the DA content both as fun as possible. I want them to do that, too. But if they don't also pay attention to the relative reward rates (and perhaps more importantly, the perceived reward rates), people will flock to the perceived winner in terms of fastest rewards.
Irrespective of whether iTrials are a good idea or not, they rely on a certain chunk of players participating, or they won't form often enough. If they don't form often enough, people will stop trying to form or join them, and we get a death spiral. For the people who hate iTrials for their very intrinsic nature, I'm sure they'd love that to happen, but the devs don't share that hate, and neither do all the players.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA