Discussion: Updating Status of Live Issues - 11/11/11
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2011-11-11 24:20 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
I'm still curious what led to such a crucial communications breakdown internally at Paragon.
The OCR team should not be blindsided by stuff like this. QA should have apprised them of the state of things.
Unless, of course, QA wasn't aware, which would be more baffling.
Then there's the question of who is in charge of deciding "No, it's good enough, release as-is, we'll fix it in post."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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I'm sure the devs are under orders not to mention it, but I agree with the theory that it was probably the decision of some clueless Marketing type who insisted that the update had to be released on that specific date. I can even guess as to why they wanted it released on that specific date (but don't think I'm allowed to be specific).
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Originally Posted by BurningChick
Hey, Z,
There's a reason the devs stopped pushing updates late in the week. *cough*issue2fustercluck*cough* Gah. What on Earth made you guys push a patch WITH KNOWN ISSUES right before a weekend? |
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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The problem is that they have to look at all the feedback, both positive and negative. To put it another way:|
Originally Posted by Olantern
It wouldn't surprise me to learn that player feedback of any kind is given absolutely no weight whatsoever because so much of it is so whiny, unreasonbably demanding, and negative.
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Originally Posted by Samuel Goldwyn
I don't want any yes-men around me. I want everybody to tell me the truth even if it costs them their jobs.
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Originally Posted by Olantern
That is, when players point out something as a real problem, the devs ignore that feedback because everything else they do is greeted by players with the same amount of vitriol.
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Originally Posted by Olantern
I have no problem with players reporting major issues, but I (and, I suspect, the devs and community team) am annoyed by the refrain we've heard constantly from the players lately that "the devs are stupid" and "the devs don't care" and "it's all the ebil marketing soots fault lolz."
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Originally Posted by Olantern
However, I think it would go a fair ways toward placating the increasingly angry player base if they were told in no uncertain terms that players do not take part in development or set priorities.
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Originally Posted by Olantern
Mechanisms like betas are designed for mechanical stress testing, not so players can have input on the game's published form. This is a fundamental truth that very, very few people seem to grasp.
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Here is an interesting article that might help you get some insight into how to properly deal with negative impact.
http://mackcollier.com/study-responding-to-negative/
The main points:
- Respond as quickly as possible.
- Be thankful, polite, and respectful of your customers EVEN IF you think they are DEAD WRONG.
- If your customers have inaccurate information, feel free to correct them.
- Tell the customers how you are going to address their complaints, and what the next steps are.
- Give customers a way to stay in touch with you, and invite further feedback.
The original survey results are here:
http://www.mediapost.com/publications/article/146630/
It has a tidbit that the OCR team and Customer Support need to understand:
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| However, one of the top frustrations consumers had when shopping online was a lack of consistent information from retailers. Specifically, 22% of consumers were frustrated by information that was inconsistent between the retailer's website and customer service agents. |
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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I understand where you're coming from...|
Originally Posted by Olantern
I wonder if the increasing tendencies of the player base to overreact to and criticize absolutely every decision made in development and every feature and patch released has anything to do with this. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that player feedback of any kind is given absolutely no weight whatsoever because so much of it is so whiny, unreasonbably demanding, and negative. That is, when players point out something as a real problem, the devs ignore that feedback because everything else they do is greeted by players with the same amount of vitriol.
I have no problem with players reporting major issues, but I (and, I suspect, the devs and community team) am annoyed by the refrain we've heard constantly from the players lately that "the devs are stupid" and "the devs don't care" and "it's all the ebil marketing soots fault lolz." The more you trash the development team and insult them, the less likely they are to value your opinion. Indeed, I suspect that player opinions are now considered the worthless griping of a group of tantrum-prone infants around Paragon Studios. No wonder design decisions aren't based on them. All of this just exacerbates the existing perceptual chasm between developers and consumers. (For instance, the team believes large-group raids are the foundation of a strong, committed player community, while players seem to focus on other kinds of community-building, such as global chat channels. Similarly, story-focused players are looking for a postmodernist, manga-like story, as well as having an idiosyncratic checklist of pet peeves, while the story team is more interested in telling a political morality tale. These are just examples.) Unlike many players, I recognize that I am not the one creating the game, so I expect to be subjected to the creator's own fixations, interests, and priorities. However, I think it would go a fair ways toward placating the increasingly angry player base if they were told in no uncertain terms that players do not take part in development or set priorities. Mechanisms like betas are designed for mechanical stress testing, not so players can have input on the game's published form. This is a fundamental truth that very, very few people seem to grasp. |
However, there is zero way you can paint this scenario and not have it be the fault of the development team/company.
I'm not excusing obnoxious behavior, but professionals in this industry know how customer feedback works... and they have to know how to handle actual bug concerns and the like.
I don't think it is remotely correct to pin blame on forum-posters.
If any development team were so out of sync to ignore actual bug problems reported in betas, simply because they're sick of forum whining... They're not capable of doing their jobs.
Anyway, don't anyone read that previous sentence as me saying this company is not capable of doing their jobs, hehe... I have no idea what is going on over there.
I am displeased with the quality of service after this last publish. Not sure what else I can say about it at this point.
Best of luck, Paragon Studios! We'll be here when you sort this stuff out!
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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No no, you are...don't you see the lightning?|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Oh good. I am not the only one.
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And yes, for the whole 30 minutes I had to play the other day I had the UI issue, but a couple buttons later had it fixed. I stayed in base so I don't know if it's resetting on me or not.
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I know at least one QA person on the beta server following up the UI bug (and a market interface bug) within minutes of me saying something on the Beta Testers channel on the Beta Server.|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
If any development team were so out of sync to ignore actual bug problems reported in betas
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Trust me they aren't ignoring bug problems. They might not be saying much and the people responsible for the timetables might be overzealous, but they aren't ignoring the problems.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
I know that I had encountered first hand two of those bugs on beta, Posed in the bug forum about them and sent an in game bug report also, and yet it was pushed to live? why not wait until those were fixed?
On Justice
Global @Desi Nova Twitter: @desi_nova Steam: Desi_nova. I don't do Xbox or PS3
Updated the OP with some information that may help to alleviate the UI issue. It's not a complete work around, but it should help.
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
another bug ive noticed with the collection system is there are a LOT of sg badges missing from display
the following badges are missing(both badge and progress bars):
in achievements:
- Analyzer base defense
- Gas trap base defense
- improved energy turret
- repulsor base defense
- benedict dr turret plans
- benedict dr-2 turret plans
- benedict dr-3 turret plans
- supercomputer
- autonomous expert system plans
- mega monitor plans
- emergency capacitor plans
in pvp:
- fusion generator plans
in defeats:
- improved igniter
- rikti plasma turret
the only section that is not missing anything is the exploration, they are only missing graphically, my sg has most of the ones which are not listed anymore but still has the ability to place items such as improved igniter
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Tweaked. I don't think ANNOYINGBUG is going to fit on a macro icon. |
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Update: For those experiencing the UI (User Interface) Issues, one possible work around is as follows:
You may have to do this repeatedly, so you may wish to create a macro, as follows: /macro <NAME> wdwloadOr, create a bind such as: /bind CTRL+U wdwloadSo that hitting CTRL+U will execute the command. |
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
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Ok that just made me laugh out loud. well that's a nice way to wake up, a well timed joke.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
Sounds like Batman forgot to take his meds.
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I too would love a BvP type option for base, A 'Danger Room' type idea so to speak.
Going to miss the fun and nice people here at CoH. Feel free to add me on PS3/XBox360
PS3X360: OmniNogard
Currently playing: Mass Effect 3(PS3) Minecraft(X360) Skyrim(X360).
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Because this is apparently what happens when you let the stupid people in neckties (marketing) hang out with the smart guys in t-shirts and jeans (developers and programmers.) |
Originally Posted by Desi_Nova
I know that I had encountered first hand two of those bugs on beta, Posed in the bug forum about them and sent an in game bug report also, and yet it was pushed to live? why not wait until those were fixed?
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I've seen it too much in real life, I've had my very own ignorant "pointy haired boss" from the world of the Dilbert comic strips, and it's why I don't think "The Office" is remotely funny -- because it's entirely too close to reality.
Oh, and it's because apparently nobody from QA was assigned to read bug reports from beta, according to one Zwillinger post -- that was undoubtedly another managerial money-saving move.
"But it wasn't anything some purples and oranges and lots of screaming in fear couldn't handle." -- Werner
30 level 50's: 12 scrappers, 7 other random melee types, 11 blaster/blapper/support squishies, two accounts, and a TON of altitis since 4/28/04
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To clarify, |
Originally Posted by Eldorado
Oh, and it's because apparently nobody from QA was assigned to read bug reports from beta, according to one Zwillinger post...
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I stated noone from QA currently posts in the forums acknowledging bug reports as received.
Someone from QA reads the forums each and every working night and sends out a report of bugs.
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
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Thanks, Zwill! |
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Update: For those experiencing the UI Issue: One possible work around is as follows: Configure your UI. Type /wdwsave When it resets type /wdwload You may have to do this repeatedly, so you may wish to create a macro, as follows: /macro <NAME> wdwload for example /macro ANNOYINGBUG wdwload Hope that helps! |
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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You're wrong. The (version you present as the) truth is a lie.|
Originally Posted by Olantern
Mechanisms like betas are designed for mechanical stress testing, not so players can have input on the game's published form. This is a fundamental truth that very, very few people seem to grasp.
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Perhaps you should drop by the beta forums sometime. Especially the numerous threads where the Developers solicit player feedback and suggestions, and then state that they're making changes based on that feedback. And then they make the changes and ask for more feedback and suggestions.
Seriously, it's happened in every CoH beta i've ever participated in.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Actually, the fundamental truth that very few people seem to grasp is that there are a lot of us, and even when the devs incorporate a hundred player ideas and suggestions into a build, that means 99.9% of all players think they are being ignored. The fundamental truth is that the playerbase has a significant impact on the game, but no particular player is likely to have their individual feedback directly influence the game design at any particular moment.
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Originally Posted by Olantern
Unlike many players, I recognize that I am not the one creating the game, so I expect to be subjected to the creator's own fixations, interests, and priorities. However, I think it would go a fair ways toward placating the increasingly angry player base if they were told in no uncertain terms that players do not take part in development or set priorities. Mechanisms like betas are designed for mechanical stress testing, not so players can have input on the game's published form. This is a fundamental truth that very, very few people seem to grasp.
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[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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Okay, sorry -- that was apparently a lack of reading comprehension on my part: |
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
To clarify,
I stated noone from QA currently posts in the forums acknowledging bug reports as received. Someone from QA reads the forums each and every working night and sends out a report of bugs. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
The OCR team doesn't scrub for bugs in Beta. That's QA. They don't currently have anyone who posts acknowledgment of bugs during beta. I'll discuss this with the QA managers and see if we can change that.
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...which I suspect goes right back to "corporate idiots in neckties" vs. "smart guys actually doing the work."
"But it wasn't anything some purples and oranges and lots of screaming in fear couldn't handle." -- Werner
30 level 50's: 12 scrappers, 7 other random melee types, 11 blaster/blapper/support squishies, two accounts, and a TON of altitis since 4/28/04
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Can we get a badge for defeating 100 Vanessas now?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Missions using Carnival of Shadows critters may have Venessa DeVore spawns (Elite Boss) making them more difficult than intended.
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
Yeah, I want to come down on the side of the folks we usually interact with in the form of rednames, as whole, pretty obviously listening to things. As mentioned by others, they do get told plenty of conflicting things. I don't always agree with the path they choose, but it's clear to me that they do, at times at least, change direction based on our feedback.
That wasn't what I was complaining to Zwil about. There's a subtly different thing that happens with bugs. It may not be the same now as it's always been, but I remember both Castle and BABs at different times being surprised to learn about bugs on the forums that numerous players had /bugged, and certainly had been discussed for a long time on the forums. I can forgive them not seeing the forum discussions, but it wierds me out that they had never heard of the bugs. Stuff like this UI bug going live strikes me as possibly being like that. That's the sort of thing that I was talking about, not the notion that the studio never listens.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Is it possible that, like with other pet-spawn powers that the AI uses, it'll vanish if the target dies? It's not the ideal solution, but perhaps until it can be fixed, self-destruction might work?|
Originally Posted by Necrotron_RO
Also, high priority bug worth noting.
In the first mission of the Signature Story Arc #3, Manticore's Poison Gas Arrow (pet) will not dissipate after he dies, making it impossible to release the hostage Alexis Cole-Duncan, and impossible to complete the mission. |
Emphasis on "might", granted, as I haven't tried it myself, but it seems like there's a chance.
And you dodge the question:
Knockback Bug, high priority or not? Should be on this list.
None of the mutant pack items have the glowing parts any longer. I paid for the glow, and I would like for the glow to be returned.
Types of Swords
My Portfolio
I'm having this same issue everytime...
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
"For some players the User Interface is resetting after the game client is closed."
...and when changing zones. ...and when entering instanced missions. ...and when switching characters. ...and when logging in. |
Real reason patch was pushed early and not going to be updated til Tuesday.
Devs are playing Skyrim this weekend.
Please communicate that at least one person likes that you guys tried to combine the maintenance and release windows. I appreciate that someone was listening to the complaints about lots of downtime, and tried to do something about it.
Please go back and flog about the head the person who decided to choose the Thursday weekday of the two, for reasons given by others in the thread. That gives you guys one day to recover from unexpected foo bars. Also already mentioned, these particular foo bars were reported in beta.
I don't know what it is specifically, but something seems badly broken about the bug prioritization process. Someone who filters and prioritizes what bugs need to be fixed first is acting as a black hole in relation to what players think are important bugs. I know sometimes players are going to claim the dumbest things ever are world-ending bugs, but interface stuff on this scale seems like a really dumb thing for you guys to have to scramble to fix. I imagine someone was busting their hump yesterday trying to figure out if this could be fixed by this morning, and that totally could have been avoided if this had been prioritized as something the players would surely freak out about.
@Texarkana
@Thexder