Null the Gull and Knockback
By
AmazingMOO,
Posted on: 2011-11-11 01:00 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
The goal is to win the fight. For a great many, but not all of us, the goal is to win the fight as efficiently and/or quickly as possible.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
After almost 6 years of playing this game, I still don't understand why melee players hate when targets get knocked back by other teammates.
You are on the same team. Does it really matter who does the defeating? Let the ranged characters take care of the foes out of your range. That's what they're there for. Just move on to the next one. |
If I am on a melee character, in the least annoying case, a single knocked-back foe is one I would need to chase down in order to do additional damage to. Imagine it's the last target. Instead of being able to damage the foe at the same time as the ranged character, I now must instead chase it around, leaving only the ranged character's damage contribution. This is inefficient.
In far more annoying cases, such as radial KB of an entire spawn, the effect denies many melee characters of their most efficient ways of dealing damage: melee-range PBAoEs. Now they must resort to chasing down individual targets, which is less time efficient than attacking the foes en masse. It can also deny sets of some of their self buffs; some of these are mitigation tools which may not be needed (Invincibility, Rise to the Challenge), but some are offensive tools that could speed the battle (Soul Drain, Against All Odds).
It's not about competition against teammates to see who can defeat more mobs fastest, it's about defeating mobs as effectively as possible. Obviously, it's not reasonable to get worked up every time the optimal scenario doesn't arise, so please don't erect a straw man about that position. Occasional knockback, even massive radial knockback, isn't going to ruin anyone's day. However having to experience it throughout a story arc or TF, especially when it's used unwisely, gets old, and trains people who care about the efficiency of their melee characters to be wary of letting it happen again.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Skyrim stole our knockback! Make them give it back!
As an AR/Sonic Corruptor, I like this change.
I do admit having minions flying absurd distances made it more heroic, but I do more damage now that everything is clumped up nicely. It is a huge buff to a power like Grenade Launcher.
Only drawback I can see is the power sets that rely on knockback as mitigation against a melee boss about to smash your face in. More specifically, blasters may probably be hurt the most by this change.
Edit: Now, that I think about it more, it makes Dual Pistols Fire ammo the clear cut winner now (Anytime options are diminished I see that as a downside). Energy Blasters are hurt the most, because that is their identity. FF doesn't rely on knockback mitigation, but is a nice feature for sure. I am sure there are FF fans that are disappointed with this change.
But Broadsword is arguably better now because of this change, which generates mixed observations from my view.
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Oddly I can't see any difference with my BS character. He still knocks stuff up in the air. Overall, this bug confuses me greatly.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
But Broadsword is arguably better now because of this change, which generates mixed observations from my view.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Knockup I do not think is effected.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Oddly I can't see any difference with my BS character. He still knocks stuff up in the air. Overall, this bug confuses me greatly.
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Knockback/knockdown are what people have observed changes in.
"OH NOES A MOB GOT KNOCKED OUT OF AOE RANGE, NOW I WILL HAVE TO PRESS THE R BUTTON TO GET TO HIM AND KILL HIM IN 2 SECONDS INSTEAD OF 1!!"
Hell no, im gonna run around with my photon seekers and solar flares and radiant strikes slapping **** all across the map D:<
Quote:
Well, people have reported Knockout Blow just making things fall down in place. I haven't tested that one myself.|
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Knockup I do not think is effected.
Knockback/knockdown are what people have observed changes in. |
Given that, though, I am confused by the comment that this would make BS better. There's no KB in it unless you hit underlevel foes with Headsplitter. I don't even think it knocks -1s back.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Not with me, you won't. I'm not going to kick someone who comes on my team equipped with KB. I'll kick them for being a tool with it, though.
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Originally Posted by G_Savior
Hell no, im gonna run around with my photon seekers and solar flares and radiant strikes slapping **** all across the map D:<
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Most of the time, I really don't care. I don't bother to chase individual targets. You knock 'em they're yours, have fun. But let me just share a few anecdotes.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
After almost 6 years of playing this game, I still don't understand why melee players hate when targets get knocked back by other teammates.
You are on the same team. Does it really matter who does the defeating? Let the ranged characters take care of the foes out of your range. That's what they're there for. Just move on to the next one. My main is an energy blaster, and I also have a PB. Knockback is great. I team with them all the time, and ne'er a complaint about it. I echo the comments that allowing individuals to turn off KB would do nothing for teams, unless you managed to find an entire team where everyone had it turned off. That's a step in the wrong direction, back to the days of "R U Healorz?" If you solo exclusively and can't handle your own KB, perhaps that powerset isn't for you. |
My DM/EA Brute moves into the middle of a spawn and hits Soul Drain. No buff icons come up because they just got knocked out of range. That's just plain annoying.
My Invul/Stone Tank is plugging along with 30%+ defense feeling all warm and fuzzy when suddenly I start taking a lot more damage because mobs have been knocked out of the range of Invincibility.
My Fire/Shield Scrapper teleports into a spawn greatly harming ten of them with Shield Charge, with Fire Sword Circle and Fireball to clean up anything that has the gall to still be alive. I get that tingly feeling that Scrapperlock causes. I have run well ahead of the Energy Blaster and Storm Defender. That denies them an additional off-tank, but hey they got Knockback!
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Adding to the above list...|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Most of the time, I really don't care. I don't bother to chase individual targets. You knock 'em they're yours, have fun. But let me just share a few anecdotes.
My DM/EA Brute moves into the middle of a spawn and hits Soul Drain. No buff icons come up because they just got knocked out of range. That's just plain annoying. My Invul/Stone Tank is plugging along with 30%+ defense feeling all warm and fuzzy when suddenly I start taking a lot more damage because mobs have been knocked out of the range of Invincibility. My Fire/Shield Scrapper teleports into a spawn greatly harming ten of them with Shield Charge, with Fire Sword Circle and Fireball to clean up anything that has the gall to still be alive. I get that tingly feeling that Scrapperlock causes. I have run well ahead of the Energy Blaster and Storm Defender. That denies them an additional off-tank, but hey they got Knockback! |
Fire/Kin Controller hits Transfusion to get a heal off for the melee teammates battling out with a foe, foe gets knocked back, no one benefits from the transfusion.
- Garielle
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Originally Posted by Frosty_Femme
I said "ur" which is not a word. It's a sound dumb people make when you ask them to spell out "you are".
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I'll add to those a...|
Originally Posted by Garielle
Adding to the above list...
Fire/Kin Controller hits Transfusion to get a heal off for the melee teammates battling out with a foe, foe gets knocked back, no one benefits from the transfusion. |
Elec/Rad using a sleep patch, sapping aura, and anchored debuffs to stay alive and suddenly being machine gunned in the face from all sides.
While I would prefer that all KB be changed to KD and I like the current "feature". Having the ability to toggle the setting with Null the Gull would be nice for both side of this "KB" debate.
Until its fixed, I will be playing my PB some for the first time in years....
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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Originally Posted by Garielle
Adding to the above list...
Fire/Kin Controller hits Transfusion to get a heal off for the melee teammates battling out with a foe, foe gets knocked back, no one benefits from the transfusion. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by rsclark
I'll add to those a...
Elec/Rad using a sleep patch, sapping aura, and anchored debuffs to stay alive and suddenly being machine gunned in the face from all sides. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
My favorite is when some guy with an AoE knockback opens every spawn by using it so none of my AoEs work.
I for one welcome our new knockdown overlords.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Yay, i as well, but I fear their usurption shall be put down come the ides of novemeber (nov 15)
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Originally Posted by Dispari
My favorite is when some guy with an AoE knockback opens every spawn by using it so none of my AoEs work.
I for one welcome our new knockdown overlords. |
Quote:
*shrug* Whichever power[s] Storm people have that cause KB, are invalidated with the effect under discussion; and that is just all right with me. My Meleers have absolutely left teams in which we have a Storm person griefing the team with incessant KB.|
Originally Posted by Stormbird
Hurricane does repel as well. Different effect.
So, Ha-ha right back to you. |
This change being made permanent, or electable re the gull, would probably also result in fewer people thinking "oh, nooooo" to themselves every time a Warshade or PB gets invited to the team.
It is still a massive nerf to some power sets, so overall I can't support the change unless they plan on doing a lot of re-balancing of power sets.
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Which powersets rely on knockback so much that changing it to knockdown would qualify as a "massive nerf?"
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
It is still a massive nerf to some power sets, so overall I can't support the change unless they plan on doing a lot of re-balancing of power sets.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Martial Arts. I don't want to live in a world where you can't crane kick people off of buildings. |
Originally Posted by Dispari
Which powersets rely on knockback so much that changing it to knockdown would qualify as a "massive nerf?"
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Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
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Any of them that have it. It nerfs fun.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Which powersets rely on knockback so much that changing it to knockdown would qualify as a "massive nerf?"
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KB is, without a doubt, the most fun mechanic in the game for myself, the people I play with the most, as well as many other players.
Only here on the forums have I ever even seen KB hate.
Not everyone wants to pile each and every group into a tight little bundle for maximum efficiency. While some consider that to be fun, others consider bouncing bad guys of of buildings to be very fun and very comic book.
Paragon, please do not ruin KB because a vocal minority of players (forum posters) dislike it.
I hold hope that this is a bug, possibly one to eventually give optional KB, but IMO more likely due to this new PhyX engine changing something.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
If Knockback is gone, Forcefield needs some major tweaking to get competitive (read: desirable to ever pick) again.
The buffs are fine, but Forcefield benefitted in solo/specific team play from knocking back the target causing both a knockdown affect, and a delay where the melee attack target also had to run back to the group. This might have slowed the fight down slightly, but in solo play it gave a breather space, time for powers to recharge and it meant melee targets with self-buffs wasted those buffs' time limits.
Not all Forcefielders use Fly/Hover, nor should they be expected to to fix the set itself. With an AoE buff as well in Forcefield, it benefits from being lower to the ground anyway.
Perhaps if they want to get rid of FF's knockback, they can add a hold element to the knock<whatever> powers, so the target is thrown down and pinned in place for a moment before being released.
Forse: lvl 22 FF/NRG Defender
Tam Krannock: lvl 37 Shield/Mace Tanker
Toppa Grace: lvl 25 Fire/Ice Blaster
----
Red Commissar: I'm in the Queen Mother. Only more awesome. And alive
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That at least I could see. It was one of the only things tying me to the MA set (that and EC's animation). Though I've since moved on to StJ.|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
Martial Arts. I don't want to live in a world where you can't crane kick people off of buildings.
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Though I've never had an issue with ST knockback. Just AoE knockback. Especially random AoE knockback. Most especially PBAoE knockback.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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There are pros and cons to this.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Which powersets rely on knockback so much that changing it to knockdown would qualify as a "massive nerf?"
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For AR it is a pro because:
*Easier to line up AoE's
*Huge buff to Grenade Launcher
Con: Reduced down time of NPC's, because of ragdog physics, causes an increase of incoming damage. Hard hitting melee NPC's are in your grill more frequently now and less distance is created.
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I concur.|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
Martial Arts. I don't want to live in a world where you can't crane kick people off of buildings.
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There are other more practical examples. In the Keyes iTrial, I know people who Shockwave WarWorks off of the reactor platforms to release terminals for temp power use. That isn't working any more.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
So, Ha-ha right back to you.
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.