Should Travel Powers be Inherent?


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

Until they give more options to pick from, having an inherent travel power won't really do much for most people. You'll still have to take powers that you either don't ever use just to get the ones you want, or something you'll rarely if ever use because there are no good choices left and you have to take something.

They would also have to give more enhancement slots throughout the leveling process, or tight builds would get even tighter.

If giving us inherent travel was part of a larger power pool overhaul, it would be worth doing, but until then, not really.


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Posted

This is hardly something I want the devs wasting their precious time on. It's not broken. It doesn't need to be fixed. If you think travel powers are irrelevant, don't take them. If you're annoyed that you HAVE to take one to get at some other power you want... tough. This is how power pools work. I'd love to have Weave without taking a crappy pool attack power but that's the price. I don't really think it is an unreasonable one. Anyone who wants it has to pay the same price, so it's fair.

Inherent Fitness was a different story. So many people took Fitness that while it wasn't technically required, it was nevertheless viewed by nearly everybody as a "must have" to the point where it felt more like they only had three choices for power pools rather than four.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
For it to be brilliant, it needs to be solving a problem. Since I don't see a problem, I don't see a reason to introduce change.

I don't understand why everyone wants everything to have so fewer hard choices. Well, I understand why they want it, but I don't understand why they always think its such a great idea to actually do.
I agree with you that hard choices are a good thing for the game. It promotes diversity, which I believe causes people to have more attachment to their characters.

While I think it's too late to do anything about it, the problem this suggestion is solving (as Jagged mentioned in his response as well) is the "we want to add a new travel power, but can't add a full new power pool for it" problem, that I believe led to inherent travel powers (which you argued against above, and I agree with) like Ninja Run and Beast Run. The inclusion of Ninja Run and Beast Run as they are already did reduce the number of hard choices when it comes to travel powers. I think I saw more people using Ninja Run as a travel power than any other travel power before the addition of Beast Run or the Rocket Board, and on characters that didn't remotely look like it fit their concept (if they had one).

Also, since Fitness became inherent, I've never run into a situation where I would have liked to have 5 Power Pools. I think I only ran into one when Fitness wasn't inherent. 4 Pools appears to me to be sufficiently large that it really doesn't create hard choices in the vast majority of cases.

So, had Jagged's suggestion been implemented prior to the Martial Arts pack, and Ninja and Beast run been added to that pool and require a power pick instead of being inherent, I believe we would have more hard choices than we do now. There is also the balance consideration that people who use Ninja Run or Beast Run get one more power pick than those who use the other travel powers.

But it's too late to do anything about it now. Players would be very upset over having to spend a power slot on Ninja or Beast run, especially after having paid money for them.

Edit: The above was all written without considering the fact that Jagged suggested that all non-travel powers in the pool be Tier 2 powers. Yeah, that removes some hard choices.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy View Post
Just to check:

Fly speed with Afterburner active: 116,40 Km/h
Fly speed with Afterburner and Dampfsprungjet active: 140,50 Km/h (This is denoted in blue as capped flight speed)

It should be noted that my Fly is not enhanced for fly speed.
I do this on my new main. I like having turbos (For those who remember Airwolf). And for Lambda missions and other running fights, I alternate between hover+rocket pack and hover+steam jump for mobility.

Afterburner+Fly is a blessing in Lambda, being able to speed through the maze of halls looking for acids and grenades with increased defense and maneuverability has been a great asset.


 

Posted

There are a couple of things to consider in all this.
First, the tempermanent travel powers require points to obtain. Sure, for those VIP memebers that save up the points it's "free", but if they use up too many points on such things, they're either gated by time to save up points again, or end up having to purchage points.

Premium members have to purchase the tempermanent travel powers.

Power Pools take up power slot choices and can end up being used to slot with enhancements as well, but everyone can access this without cost.

Now, I wouldn't mind being able to pick a movement power from the start either, but there should be some limiting factor or cost to it.

I'd like to echo the call for even more power pools though. I'd love at Gadgetry Pool.
T1: Net Trap (like web grenade).
T2: Lazer Sighting click power - affect self, adds slight to-hit buff, and minor range boost.
T3: Grappling Gun: movement power - target location triggers swing to that spot.
T4: Gas Pellets: targeted location, foe knock down, sleep. You throw out a hand full of gass pellets which may cause foes to slip and fall. Some may crack and release a gas cloud causing foes to fall asleep.

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T2: Adrenal Leech: click power, single target foe - endurance, self + endurance, minor resist to endurance drain for a short duration.
T3: Walk Walking: travel power, the verticle movement on walls.
T4: Biomorphic Boost: click power, pboae affect: for a short duration you slightly alter how your body, and that of other's near you operate by increasing recharge, movement speed, regeneration rate, and damage.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid View Post
Edit: The above was all written without considering the fact that Jagged suggested that all non-travel powers in the pool be Tier 2 powers. Yeah, that removes some hard choices.
It only removes one, that you have a character with no movement power but Hasten, Combat Jump etc etc.

But it wasn't THAT serious a suggestion because, as you say, its too late.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post

I don't understand why everyone wants everything to have so fewer hard choices. Well, I understand why they want it, but I don't understand why they always think its such a great idea to actually do.
Agreed.

All this talk about inherent power mess...it's just that, messy. And it just homogenizes builds even more. For most of my characters, I always try to take different pool powers in conjunction with different primary/secondary combinations. Well that ended long ago. So I had to move on to different *combos* of pools...leadership + medicine here, teleport + fighting there...I'm probably close to running out of combos...(and when I say combos of power pools, taking just 1 of a pool doesn't count. Usually 3+ counts as 'getting the pool').

We don't need more inherent powers. We need more power pool choices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelclaw View Post
Another thing... If the Devs decide to make ANYTHING Inherent from among the power pools, they NEED to add more powers from which we can select to fill those gaps in our builds. It irks me to have to take a power that is either useless to me or totally against my character concept simply because a power I would normally have purchased is now a freebie.

Oh... one other suggestion that occurred to me...

A compromise: You may select one Travel Power of the four currently available as an inherent at character creation. The problem? This Inherent version is completely un-enhanceable. It also does improves at 1/2 the normal rate per level advancement so the Inherent would only be like that of a current 25th level character if your 50th had it. If you decide to spend a power slot on it you get full enhancement and advancement potential.
I'd go the other way with that suggestion:

First: 'Take back' inherent Fitness. Wait a minute, hear me out...You have to keep reading...

Second: At character creation/respec, you can choose any of the pools as an inherent pool, including Fitness. So that means, there's no reason to respect your already-respected-into-inherent-fitness toons unless you don't want inherent fitness. But now you get the choice to have something 'thematic' as your inherent ability and pick and choose from the remaining pools later...

Thirdly: Give the choosen inherent pool *bonus* effects/capabilities. So that, whichever you choose, it wouldn't need as many slots to be effective and/or could be your builds focus to sink more slots into if you so wish to emphasize that above what current pool options provide.

Inherent Teleportation may have faster activating Recall/TP foe without the interrupt and higher mag tp. Inherent Super Speed might have Hasten grant a minor PBAoE +rech buff to allies, make flurry into a cone and cheaper Burnout. Inherent Presence might have longer duration/higher mag fear and auto-hit taunts. Inherent Leadership might cost less endurance and have increased debuff/mez resist numbers + wider range. So on and so forth.

You should really have to *think* about what route you wanted to go, be able to sacrifice some aspect of a build for bonuses elsewhere, differentiate your build from others. I should have to think long and hard if I want my Spines/DA stalker to have better teleports inherently and make due with the ST fear in presence, or grab all those juicy stacked fears and settle with recall friend/teleport (and for everyone else, having your freebie fitness or dumping that for inherent flight or something).


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagged View Post
It only removes one, that you have a character with no movement power but Hasten, Combat Jump etc etc.
It's a little more than that-- let's say you want a character with Fly, and you want both Burnout and Afterburner.

Well, currently, you'd need to take 3 powers in the Flight pool (Flight, one other, and Afterburner), and 3 powers in the speed pool (two powers + Burnout). That's 6 powers, and that means you've got 3 powers you didn't specifically want, meaning you likely had to sacrifice other choices to get them. But with your suggestion, you can take just Flight, Afterburner, and Burnout without sacrificing 3 other power choices to get there.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelclaw, in a moment of Awesome View Post

2) Make the existing travel powers better. All powers to get an increase in maximum travel speed so three slotting them will actually accomplish something at higher levels.
Holy crap. This.

It really galls me that Afterburner as an 'Upgrade' to Fly renders you more or less 'Invisible' without the benefit of actually applying a stealth bonus.

I'm doubly galled that the Rocket Board is faster than Fly.

Increase the speed caps, and make slotting those powers actually DO something!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazingMOO View Post
Holy crap. This.

It really galls me that Afterburner as an 'Upgrade' to Fly renders you more or less 'Invisible' without the benefit of actually applying a stealth bonus.

I'm doubly galled that the Rocket Board is faster than Fly.

Increase the speed caps, and make slotting those powers actually DO something!
When I heard of both Afterburner and the Rocket Board, I was immediately annoyed. For a very long time, we were told that the speed limit on Fly, aside from balance considerations, was a server limitation - that somehow 3-dimensional movement modes actually had to be slower than 2-dimensional ones like Super Speed or the server would somehow get out of sync with our clients as we traveled. The fact that this "physical" speed limit is now bypassed with extra powers annoys me, because it means, in fact, that Fly's cap could simply have been increased.


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Posted

Well, it could also mean that there really is a technical problem with too-fast flight but they figure a low enough number of players will take and use afterburner that it will keep it from being an issue in practice.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle View Post
Well, it could also mean that there really is a technical problem with too-fast flight but they figure a low enough number of players will take and use afterburner that it will keep it from being an issue in practice.
While possible, that seems unlikely, since everyone and their brother was testing the Rocket Board on beta, which is not scaled to the capacity of the live servers, and that wasn't apparently an issue.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
When I heard of both Afterburner and the Rocket Board, I was immediately annoyed. For a very long time, we were told that the speed limit on Fly, aside from balance considerations, was a server limitation - that somehow 3-dimensional movement modes actually had to be slower than 2-dimensional ones like Super Speed or the server would somehow get out of sync with our clients as we traveled. The fact that this "physical" speed limit is now bypassed with extra powers annoys me, because it means, in fact, that Fly's cap could simply have been increased.
What's really weird about it was that when the Tier 5 powers were revealed, I pointed out the discrepancy (1 power set gets a power that makes it competitive, speed-wise with the others, and the rest get new utility or combat powers), and asked for Fly's speed cap to just be increased on its own, and for the Flight pool to get a different utility or combat power like the other sets got.

I was given the same server limitation response.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
We don't need more inherent powers. We need more power pool choices.
Why not both? There's nothing to say they're mutually exclusive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Second: At character creation/respec, you can choose any of the pools as an inherent pool, including Fitness. So that means, there's no reason to respect your already-respected-into-inherent-fitness toons unless you don't want inherent fitness. But now you get the choice to have something 'thematic' as your inherent ability and pick and choose from the remaining pools later...
Travel powers need to be treated differently from other pool powers, because travel powers are, largely, non-combat abilities. They don't help you fight better, they help you get TO fights better. Travel powers are a solution to the time sink that is travel time, and as such need to be in a category of their own.

As a point of fact, I feel very strongly AGAINST putting travel powers in travel "pools" with combat-related powers as a general thing, and have felt the same way pretty much since 2004. In much simpler terms, I don't want to have to balance my ability to travel with my ability to fight, because all that means is I'm balancing performance against convenience, leading in turn to "balance by annoyance."

I like Champions' approach to having A travel power as a separate pick from your regular powers, and would like to see something like that implemented here. If you want multiples (like I did for Crash), THEN you have to pay with a power pick, but even then, I'd still like to see travel powers excised from their respective pools and possibly all put in the same pool called "travel."

We have 10 (well, 9) pools, and four of those are "travel" pools, thus imposing both a mechanical and conceptual limitation where one shouldn't exist. Well, should or shouldn't is a matter of opinion, so let's say where one doesn't have to exist. I'm not talking about other pools, nor even about other powers in travel pools. I'm talking about PURELY powers related to travel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Personally, I don't accept that the "temp" inherent powers make "true" travel powers obsolete. Both Super Jump and Super Speed are significantly faster (and SJ jumps significantly higher) than Ninja or Beast Run.
If you're speaking strictly base numbers here I agree with you. However, using IO bonuses can definitely make "temp" inherent powers more than a viable replacement for traditional travel powers.

As I'm sure you know since we've teamed before once or twice (heh), I can get a top speed on NR/BR of almost 84mph with much better vertical movement than SS. Being at about the midway point between the capped top speeds of SJ and SS with less vertical movement than SJ and more vertical movement than SS, I feel like that more than makes "true" travel powers obsolete in this case.


 

Posted

<qr> No, they shouldn't.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Stormbird View Post
<qr> No, they shouldn't.
Thank you for that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy View Post
Just to check:

Fly speed with Afterburner active: 116,40 Km/h
Fly speed with Afterburner and Dampfsprungjet active: 140,50 Km/h (This is denoted in blue as capped flight speed)

It should be noted that my Fly is not enhanced for fly speed.
You're awesome. I didn't even think to combine the Jet Pack with Afterburner. My Defender (with 2 Blessing of the Zephyr in Fly and unslotted Afterburner) goes from about 72 MPH to the presumed (double-secret) Fly cap of 87.95 MPH.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagged View Post
You will have to explain that one to me, since nothing that is possible now would be impossible under this scheme except the character that has Hasten, Combat Jump, Recall Friend and Hover and no true movement power. Forgive me if I don't believe that covers 90% of your characters
You would be wrong. If I do choose a travel power, it is at level 49 and used as a mule for winter's gift slow resist on melee characters.

Quote:
If you are currently using Beast Run or Ninja Run as your main movement power, you would loose one power selection but you would gain the ability to slot it.
Forcing my characters to lose a power is a pretty major change. And why would I care about the opportunity to slot a power that I don't actually care about having in the first place. I could just throw away slots in brawl and prestige sprints if I somehow mysteriously wanted to waste them.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Larker View Post

Personally I think a hero or villain without an inherent travel power is sorta strange.
Batman
Wolverine
Cyclops
Captain America
Technically Aquaman might count for this


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CommunistPenguin View Post
Batman
Wolverine
Cyclops
Captain America
Technically Aquaman might count for this
Exactly. Kinda strange

That said, comic books can get away with this because these characters don't actually have to walk to their destinations. They have transportation provided to them in the form of group jets or even conventional vehicles. I think the larger problem is what to make of it in City of Heroes where we're always on foot. Suppose a bank robber got into a car and fled. What would Batman do? Get into his Batmobile, probably. He certainly won't take off on foot, now will he call a cab. Well, maybe a Batcab, but that's besides the point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

I like the fact that everyone is a pedestrian. I have to imagine that if they'd intended there to be vehicles in the game, players wouldn't have a default walking speed of like fifteen miles per hour or be able to leap twenty feet in the air as a matter of course. Everyone in Paragon City and surrounding areas is really damn fit since vehicles were eschewed. Also you have to imagine that the air is awfully clean when it isn't converted to zombie-ridden smog.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid View Post
What's really weird about it was that when the Tier 5 powers were revealed, I pointed out the discrepancy (1 power set gets a power that makes it competitive, speed-wise with the others, and the rest get new utility or combat powers), and asked for Fly's speed cap to just be increased on its own, and for the Flight pool to get a different utility or combat power like the other sets got.

I was given the same server limitation response.
Was it a Dev that said this? I've been told in a PM by Castle back in the day that there are no server-side limitations for why Fly is slower than Super Speed, for instance. All travel is done in three dimensions anyways, so there's o way that's a valid response.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintry View Post
People still use Fly?

SS+SJ for everything, on everything, tbh.
Yes. Some people still use Fly:



In many of the above cases, they also have SS, but only for its stealth component to stack with the Stealth IO in one of the prestige sprints, and then only if they need to save that 4th pool for something other than Concealment.

It would also look rather retarded for these characters to be zipping about everywhere with Ninja or Beast Run, and since they have these lovely wings, they don't need the Rocket Board or Raptor Pack after level 6 (or 4 or whenever the travel power opens up now).

I'm guessing that those who never ever ever take Fly also then never ever ever use any of the wings in the costume creator?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willowpaw View Post
I'm guessing that those who never ever ever take Fly also then never ever ever use any of the wings in the costume creator?
Nope.