Should Travel Powers be Inherent?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-11-03 05:22 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Last I heard, Air Supremacy was considered a decent power.
I don't think I could deal with travel powers going inherent. Since Inherent Fitness came about I've already been having trouble choosing powers all the way to 50.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
I don't think they should be inherent. We should be able to choose a travel power from level 2 though.
Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind
OMG!! Please add these costume designs now!
I pretty much agree with your argument. The advent of so many travel-oriented temporary powers has made the existing travel powers (as they are now) a little redundant.
I would suggest one of two options.
1) Make ONE travel power Inherent upon character creation. So, you can pick one of the existing four at creation. This will be greyed out as a taken power when you later go to the Power Pool tables. If you want MORE than that one travel power then you have to spend a slot on it as normal. In any case, the inherent power chosen will count as credit towards later pool powers that require "credit" to choose.
2) Make the existing travel powers better. All powers to get an increase in maximum travel speed so three slotting them will actually accomplish something at higher levels. Powers like Super Speed and Super Jump will get a "Forgiveness Field" that prevents the character from getting hooked/stopped by environmental objects like bushes, raised sidewalks, slight roof overhangs, etc. Teleport will get an automatic Hover aspect to it that merely suspends you in mid-air (no defense buff, etc) so long as you don't attempt to move or use another power. The second you try to do either, you will drop like a rock. Basically, make the existing travel powers so much better than the existing temp powers that you're willing to spend a point on them.
My mind wanders so often you've probably seen its picture on milk cartons. - Me... the first person version of the third person Steelclaw
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I do agree that if the devs implemented this wihtout adding new pools there could be an issue of choice, but that's a slightly different discussion. |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Last I heard, Air Supremacy was considered a decent power.
I don't think I could deal with travel powers going inherent. Since Inherent Fitness came about I've already been having trouble choosing powers all the way to 50. |
Air Superiority seems (in my experience) to be taken by those who maybe need a handy melee power - I have taken it on a defender once I think and I've experimented with it but I don't think it's a common pick. I'd love to see a pool power of Air Supremacy which could be a PBAoE Knockdown/Stun but that'd need to be higher level. That would fix those pesky Longbow Eagles
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Originally Posted by Steelclaw
I pretty much agree with your argument. The advent of so many travel-oriented temporary powers has made the existing travel powers (as they are now) a little redundant.
I would suggest one of two options. 1) Make ONE travel power Inherent upon character creation. So, you can pick one of the existing four at creation. This will be greyed out as a taken power when you later go to the Power Pool tables. If you want MORE than that one travel power then you have to spend a slot on it as normal. In any case, the inherent power chosen will count as credit towards later pool powers that require "credit" to choose. 2) Make the existing travel powers better. All powers to get an increase in maximum travel speed so three slotting them will actually accomplish something at higher levels. Powers like Super Speed and Super Jump will get a "Forgiveness Field" that prevents the character from getting hooked/stopped by environmental objects like bushes, raised sidewalks, slight roof overhangs, etc. Teleport will get an automatic Hover aspect to it that merely suspends you in mid-air (no defense buff, etc) so long as you don't attempt to move or use another power. The second you try to do either, you will drop like a rock. Basically, make the existing travel powers so much better than the existing temp powers that you're willing to spend a point on them. |
Your first point is effectively my argument but you said it better. Fully agree with your 2nd point. Travel powers as are, are mostly pants especially in comparison to Rocket Board. Why would I waste a valuable slot for a junk power when 80 points gets me a power I can travel the entire game with from level 2, forever, on all my characters?
Thelonious Monk
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Super Speed(+CJ) is not redundant, a case could absolutely be made for flight (and to a lesser extent teleport, cause its an awful travel power, and SJ, just cause theres not alot of use for it when you have SS/CJ and a raptor pack) though with the abundancy of flight packs and how flight isnt really any better than the temps.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
In fact there's an argument to be made that Fly, Super Jump, Teleport and Superspeed are now redundant and the only reason to take them is for character/RP reasons. If you wish to get around Paragon, the Rogue Isles, Praetoria, then the other options are in many ways better. You can, for example, get across most zones in game using Ninja/Beast Run, and the two jump packs. It makes SJ seem pathetic in comparison.
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However, I think the bigger issue is that the pool power system is largely outdated. There are few options and even less that are viable/good choices, and if they made travel powers inherent, why not just scrap the entire power pool system all together and make everything inherent. If they were to make any more pool powers inherent they would need to add more pools.
That said, I really think the pool power system is fine as it is currently, there /is/ enough reason to take the powers in your build and that is good enough. Now if they were to add 10 more unique power pools to choose between then maybe there would be enough reason to look at making travel powers inherent so that people would have space in their builds to play with other power pools, but currently there just is not enough reason to make them inherent.
I'd have to disagree w/the OP here. While Steelclaw does bring up some good points, let's look at it from the other perspective:
1) What if someone hasn't purchased BR, NR, or the Rocketboard? Unless you travel, blue side at least, to the Shard for a Rocket pack, the earliest you can get a Travel power is Level 5. By then you already have access to the four Travel powers anyway.
2) As it is now with iFitness, deciding on what to take w/some characters is becoming a PITA. Adding another power choice or two is going to make things that much more complicated.
Thank you for the time...
@Travlr (Main) / @Tymers Realm (Test) 
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Super Speed(+CJ) is not redundant, a case could absolutely be made for flight (and to a lesser extent teleport, cause its an awful travel power, and SJ, just cause theres not alot of use for it when you have SS/CJ and a raptor pack) though with the abundancy of flight packs and how flight isnt really any better than the temps.
However, I think the bigger issue is that the pool power system is largely outdated. There are few options and even less that are viable/good choices, and if they made travel powers inherent, why not just scrap the entire power pool system all together and make everything inherent. If they were to make any more pool powers inherent they would need to add more pools. That said, I really think the pool power system is fine as it is currently, there /is/ enough reason to take the powers in your build and that is good enough. Now if they were to add 10 more unique power pools to choose between then maybe there would be enough reason to look at making travel powers inherent so that people would have space in their builds to play with other power pools, but currently there just is not enough reason to make them inherent. |
You've not explained why SS+CJ is a good system. The only reason people would largely take that is because of PVP, but who PVPs these days - and since I13 wasn't that changed slightly anyhow?
As for the rest you've confused me. Is the Pool Power system outdated or is it fine? It seems strange that it could be both.
Thelonious Monk
I look at this from a business standpoint. Right now, the Devs are selling the Rocket Board. If they made the travel powers inherent, who would buy the Rocket Board (lost revenues), and you'd piss people off who have already bought this item (bad press and angry fans). Neither of those will help them.
We get the choice of travel powers at level 6, with plenty of other options for traveling out there as well. I don't really see a need to make these inherent. And especially from a business perspective, it doesn't make any sense.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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3) Delete about the last 614 travel powers that were added for obscure reasons.
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Originally Posted by Steelclaw
I pretty much agree with your argument. The advent of so many travel-oriented temporary powers has made the existing travel powers (as they are now) a little redundant.
I would suggest one of two options. 1) Make ONE travel power Inherent upon character creation. So, you can pick one of the existing four at creation. This will be greyed out as a taken power when you later go to the Power Pool tables. If you want MORE than that one travel power then you have to spend a slot on it as normal. In any case, the inherent power chosen will count as credit towards later pool powers that require "credit" to choose. 2) Make the existing travel powers better. All powers to get an increase in maximum travel speed so three slotting them will actually accomplish something at higher levels. Powers like Super Speed and Super Jump will get a "Forgiveness Field" that prevents the character from getting hooked/stopped by environmental objects like bushes, raised sidewalks, slight roof overhangs, etc. Teleport will get an automatic Hover aspect to it that merely suspends you in mid-air (no defense buff, etc) so long as you don't attempt to move or use another power. The second you try to do either, you will drop like a rock. Basically, make the existing travel powers so much better than the existing temp powers that you're willing to spend a point on them. |
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
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SS+CJ gives you some additional height, and there are plenty of obstacles out there that having CJ will allow you to get over that you couldn't before.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
You've not explained why SS+CJ is a good system. The only reason people would largely take that is because of PVP, but who PVPs these days - and since I13 wasn't that changed slightly anyhow?
As for the rest you've confused me. Is the Pool Power system outdated or is it fine? It seems strange that it could be both. |
Also, I love Flight+CJ, as it gives you more air control, and you can leave CJ on, where you'd need to toggle between Hover and Fly.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Originally Posted by Tymers_Realm
I'd have to disagree w/the OP here. While Steelclaw does bring up some good points, let's look at it from the other perspective:
1) What if someone hasn't purchased BR, NR, or the Rocketboard? Unless you travel, blue side at least, to the Shard for a Rocket pack, the earliest you can get a Travel power is Level 5. By then you already have access to the four Travel powers anyway. 2) As it is now with iFitness, deciding on what to take w/some characters is becoming a PITA. Adding another power choice or two is going to make things that much more complicated. Thank you for the time... |
If the Travel Power system became inherent as SteelClaw suggested you get what you want at level 2 and so your argument becomes academic
We've already covered the point that there is a requirement for additional pools, but that's arguably already necessary. My proposal won't necessarily make things more difficult, especially if only one power out of a potential 5 is made inherent
Thelonious Monk
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I wouldn't buy the Rocket Board anyway. To me it is far less desirable than any of the regular travel powers simply because it shuts of all your powers.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I look at this from a business standpoint. Right now, the Devs are selling the Rocket Board. If they made the travel powers inherent, who would buy the Rocket Board (lost revenues), and you'd piss people off who have already bought this item (bad press and angry fans). Neither of those will help them.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Personally, I don't accept that the "temp" inherent powers make "true" travel powers obsolete. Both Super Jump and Super Speed are significantly faster (and SJ jumps significantly higher) than Ninja or Beast Run. That might not matter to everyone, but it's certainly a compromise I don't accept in my builds. Also, I really don't like having to using a temp jet/raptor pack to get more significant vertical movement on my jumpers - if I wanted that, I would pick the Flight pool. (I don't do Super Speed / CJ as a primary way of getting around - I only have Super Speed as a supplemental travel power, because of its stealth aspect.)
And of course, none of that gets into the ability to slot useful things in travel powers, which you can't do with the inherent or temp powers.
Responding more directly to the idea of the OP, I don't think travel powers should to be inherent. We already got a pretty big "gimme" with inherent Fitness, and without an expansion in what powers (and slots) we have (which definitely has some power creep considerations), there's not much left for us to take.
So basically I see the idea of inherent travel powers as a fix for a non-existent problem that risks some negative side effects.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Personally, I want MORE pool powers. Heck, I'd like to see a HUGE pool power system, with virtually every powerset in the game offering a pool "lite" version available to other players.
- I want an illusion controller that can manifest 'spectral claws' for a few claw melee attacks
- I want a dual-pistol blaster with a few street justice melee moves.
- ... or a street justice fighter that will pull out a (non-temp-power) pistol when needed.
- ... an "elementalist" made with a fire primary, earth secondary, and both an ice pool set and a storm pool set. (Closest I have is an earth/storm controller with a fire epic pool).
As for "travel power inherent"-- no. I don't want that.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I look at this from a business standpoint. Right now, the Devs are selling the Rocket Board. If they made the travel powers inherent, who would buy the Rocket Board (lost revenues), and you'd piss people off who have already bought this item (bad press and angry fans). Neither of those will help them.
We get the choice of travel powers at level 6, with plenty of other options for traveling out there as well. I don't really see a need to make these inherent. And especially from a business perspective, it doesn't make any sense. |
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
SS+CJ gives you some additional height, and there are plenty of obstacles out there that having CJ will allow you to get over that you couldn't before.
Also, I love Flight+CJ, as it gives you more air control, and you can leave CJ on, where you'd need to toggle between Hover and Fly. |
Also you take 2 travel powers to compliment each other which is cool, so you're actually benefiting a bit but still need to take a 2nd pool - so under my proposal, you'd get Flight or SuperSpeed and still have to take CJ.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Personally, I don't accept that the "temp" inherent powers make "true" travel powers obsolete. Both Super Jump and Super Speed are significantly faster (and SJ jumps significantly higher) than Ninja or Beast Run. That might not matter to everyone, but it's certainly a compromise I don't accept in my builds. Also, I really don't like having to using a temp jet/raptor pack to get more significant vertical movement on my jumpers - if I wanted that, I would pick the Flight pool. (I don't do Super Speed / CJ as a primary way of getting around - I only have Super Speed as a supplemental travel power, because of its stealth aspect.)
And of course, none of that gets into the ability to slot useful things in travel powers, which you can't do with the inherent or temp powers. Responding more directly to the idea of the OP, I don't think travel powers should to be inherent. We already got a pretty big "gimme" with inherent Fitness, and without an expansion in what powers (and slots) we have (which definitely has some power creep considerations), there's not much left for us to take. So basically I see the idea of inherent travel powers as a fix for a non-existent problem that risks some negative side effects. |
SJ & Flight is much slower than NR and Steam Jump/Jump Pack combined. If you want to reach your target quickly those are far better options - and if you go Steam Jump then Jump Pack by the time Jump Pack's run out, Steam is recharged - so you can go a very long way. More importantly though, I have not suggested or discussed any reduction in slotting - but I accept that might have been ambiguous. But I'm talking about giving one free power, that can be slotted as it is now (if you wanted to)
Thelonious Monk
I am all for all travel powers becoming available at level 2. I am sufficient of a veteran to be able to take Fly early, and I love it and I do take it early.
I would never surpass Fly for things like Ninja run. Although I think everyone in the game but myself seems to think Ninja and Beast run are the bee's knees, I [sorry folks] think they look ridiculous. Nor do I wish to purchase a jet-pack to inch my way across the Chantry with.... egads.
I have not and will not purchase the rocket board as it is uncolorable and I have no one who could use the concept.
Afterburner is largely useless to me, as there is always something more useful I can pick up in its place, even if its just Hover [keeps squishies out of melee range] or Air Superiority [invaluable for dealing with annoying enemy groups like Cabal]. Its too bad, but I have yet to fit Afterburner onto a build due to the prerequisite requirements. I don't believe I've seen anyone I know using it either.
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I find it laughable to suggest that I screw around alternating powers like that to get around. I turn on my travel powers and they work. More power to you for being willing to deal with that, but you can keep it. I think it's crap.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
SJ & Flight is much slower than NR and Steam Jump/Jump Pack combined. If you want to reach your target quickly those are far better options - and if you go Steam Jump then Jump Pack by the time Jump Pack's run out, Steam is recharged - so you can go a very long way.
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| More importantly though, I have not suggested or discussed any reduction in slotting - but I accept that might have been ambiguous. But I'm talking about giving one free power, that can be slotted as it is now (if you wanted to) |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
People still use Fly?|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
SJ & Flight is much slower than NR and Steam Jump/Jump Pack combined.
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SS+SJ for everything, on everything, tbh.
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
The last time I selected a travel power was the last character I created before they released ninja run, but you're overselling the speed of ninja run, Scarlet. At level 50 with two slotted hurdle I get about 66 mph jumping speed while ninja running. Super jump single slotted with single slotted hurdle should, as I recall, cap your jumping speed at something like 85 mph. That's a considerable difference, and the thing is nothing is keeping you from using the GvE jump pack or steam jump with SJ.
I make a point to try to be the first one to every mission whenever possible and I usually pull that off just with ninja run, the jump packs and the various teleporty powers we have access to these days, but I accept that if I used SJ instead I'd be a lot faster yet.
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This. If they give us more free powers, then they need to also give us new power pools to fill the holes in our builds.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I don't think I could deal with travel powers going inherent. Since Inherent Fitness came about I've already been having trouble choosing powers all the way to 50.
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I like the idea of having an inherent travel power from the get go ie SS, SJ, Fly, TP.
In addition I think then all the other powers from the various pools should be consoledated into one Travel Power Pool.
Hence AS, CJ, TP friend/foe, etc would all be together have the 4 main picks still at the top
like LR TP, Afterburner, etc. This way say if you chose fly as your inherent then you take the Travel pool and you take tp foe, CJ, and Afterburner this way you only have to unlock one pool. This would open more options down the line.
Personally I think a hero or villain without an inherent travel power is sorta strange.
Just my thoughts....
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True I would not mind seeing a debuff/buff set and maybe some melee/ranged options also. I always thought having a MA/SD scrapper with a pistol/ar ranged set would be sorta neat.
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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
This. If they give us more free powers, then they need to also give us new power pools to fill the holes in our builds.
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I like this idea.|
Originally Posted by Steelclaw
I pretty much agree with your argument. The advent of so many travel-oriented temporary powers has made the existing travel powers (as they are now) a little redundant.
I would suggest one of two options. 1) Make ONE travel power Inherent upon character creation. So, you can pick one of the existing four at creation. This will be greyed out as a taken power when you later go to the Power Pool tables. If you want MORE than that one travel power then you have to spend a slot on it as normal. In any case, the inherent power chosen will count as credit towards later pool powers that require "credit" to choose. |
It allows you to have the travel you want at the start of your characters journey. Which goes with how a lot of characters in comics are. Sure some develope them later, but a lot start out with one.
This also makes it more possible to grab the new travel pool powers. I've managed to grab them on a couple of characters, but it wasn't easy.
If it might take away from the bought travel powers, simply increase them a bit...Ninja Run/Beast Run can have close to SS's speed, but offers no +Stealth, but does offer better +Jump.
Jet Pack, give Fly itself -Fly protection, then Jet Pack can offer the same speed, but it lacks the protection.
The two Jump Packs. Eh, I never really saw them as travel powers, these seemed more like abilities that supplement SS or NR/BR.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Air Superiority is an awesome power that needs no change whatsoever.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
And while we're at it, could we do anything about Team Teleport and Air Supremacy?
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The only the only thing that could make it more awesome would be if it didn't cause weapon wielding characters to sheath their weapon. I don't expect that to happen any time soon.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
I've been thinking about this for a while - it first occurred to me when we had Ninja Run... but since the addition of Beast Run, the Steam Punk jet pack, the Jump Pack from the GVE edition, the Rocket Board etc... most of the travel powers are almost obsolete.
In fact there's an argument to be made that Fly, Super Jump, Teleport and Superspeed are now redundant and the only reason to take them is for character/RP reasons. If you wish to get around Paragon, the Rogue Isles, Praetoria, then the other options are in many ways better. You can, for example, get across most zones in game using Ninja/Beast Run, and the two jump packs. It makes SJ seem pathetic in comparison.
Even without Premium Membership, there are plenty of temp travel powers available, so this can't be considered game breaking. How long does it take to get a jet pack from a bank mish?
This leads to a secondary issue: The powers we considered "pre-requesites" not so long ago, Combat Jumping, Hasten, Hover, Recall Friend, are now way more important than their later counterparts.
I appreciate there's been a recent addition of a 5th tier power but frankly I've not had occasion or requirement to use a single one of them so I'm not totally convinced they add value, but I guess some of you may well find them very useful.
I'm not sure which of the "early" powers are most used, but if I had to guess, it would be
- Hasten
- Combat Jump
- Hover
- Teleport Other
but that's largely speculative based on my own experience, and it seems to me that it woudln't be game breaking if we chose one of those (plus the others non-travlel pool options, Flurry, Teleport Foe, Jump Kick and Air Superiority) at level 4 and then at maybe 6 or 7 got the travelling counterpart as an inherent.There's a difficulty of course, because the 5th Tier travel power has a pre-req of 2 of that pool already but that's a relatively simple solution:
Chose your Tier 1 or 2 depending on which you'd prefer, get your T3 as an inherent, then if you so wish choose any others you want to fit your theme and if you choose another from the pool, you open up the T5.
And while we're at it, could we do anything about Team Teleport and Air Supremacy?
I'm mostly thinking out loud here - but I can't see any disadvantage to gameplay or the player experience. The biggest disadvantage I can see is that this would increase the need for a new pool power set, non-travel related, but that's another story I guess.
Thelonious Monk