Should Travel Powers be Inherent?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-11-03 05:22 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Super Jump's Jump speed (unslotted) is 67.8 mph. Ninja Run's jump speed is 51.8 mph. Super Jump accepts enhancements and as such, is gets bonuses from Alpha slots. Ninja Run does not. Super Jump is more thematically appropriate for certain characters. I have a Willpower/Stone tank that looks outright silly with Ninja Run active.
I have two characters that use the Rocket Board. Neither of them have toggles. I like having a travel power that I can use in mission without having to worry about turning my defenses back on before I leap into a group of enemies. Oh, that's another thing, you can have Flight and Stealth active at the same time. |
That doesn't address my central suggestion.
My plan doesn't preclude you having inherent Flight and taking stealth too. SJ may well be faster, once it's slotted but standard wtih one slot or maybe even a couple it's still slower than NR& Jump. But even if those powers are inherent there's no change there.
Like many here, you've not actually said why having an inherent travel power is a bad thing
Thelonious Monk
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According to Mids, standard with no slots Super Jump is faster than Ninja Run.
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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
SJ may well be faster, once it's slotted but standard wtih one slot or maybe even a couple it's still slower than NR& Jump.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Steam jump and the GvE pack don't actually increase your jump speed. They happen to increase your speed by allowing you to avoid obstacles, but even though their real numbers claim to have all these effects on your jumping they only do two things: let you jump endlessly for their duration, and increase your flight speed. Why do they increase your flight speed? Hell if I know, but they do. Not jump speed however.
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Been there, done that with three powers gained from inherent Fitness. Worked out pretty well. Another one is pushing it.
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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
you get one power for free that you can slot any way you like. Any power you choose to take because you've gotten a free power can be slotted however you like. It gives you more choice. You CAN slot that
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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For it to be brilliant, it needs to be solving a problem. Since I don't see a problem, I don't see a reason to introduce change.|
Originally Posted by Jagged
Amazingly Brilliant Suggestion:
 Merge all the travel powers into one power pool called "The Travel Power Pool" Tier One consists of: Fly, Super Speed, Super Leap and Teleport. Tier Two consists of: Everything else. Yes even the current top tiers. |
I don't understand why everyone wants everything to have so fewer hard choices. Well, I understand why they want it, but I don't understand why they always think its such a great idea to actually do.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
well-said ----> uber guy
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It seems to me that the suggestion in question doesn't reduce the number of any "hard choices", though it does get rid of some nonsensical ones.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I don't understand why everyone wants everything to have so fewer hard choices. Well, I understand why they want it, but I don't understand why they always think its such a great idea to actually do.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Basic answer: Power Creep. Giving all characters an inherent travel power means they now have an extra power choice to spend on something else that will make them more powerful in another way, hence power creep.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
Like many here, you've not actually said why having an inherent travel power is a bad thing
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Now I don't think having an Inherent travel power is a bad idea, to be honest I kind of think the game should have done it that way from the start. However, if the game had done that then it's a good bet we would only have 23 power choices, not 24. Given that changing it now would probably not be the best option.
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Unless they added something new, they don't increase your flight speed with Fly, because it puts you at the flight speed cap starting at around level 25 even with zero enhancement. They do fairly dramatically increase your movement speed with Hover, though. I still often take Hover before Fly (and yes I take and like Fly) because I'd rather have the tactical capability in missions earlier than I worry about getting to (most) missions faster.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Steam jump and the GvE pack don't actually increase your jump speed. They happen to increase your speed by allowing you to avoid obstacles, but even though their real numbers claim to have all these effects on your jumping they only do two things: let you jump endlessly for their duration, and increase your flight speed. Why do they increase your flight speed? Hell if I know, but they do. Not jump speed however.
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Edit: I'm not sure if they do anything (or can even be used) with Afterburner.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I know the feeling, almost all of my characters have Combat Jumping simply because I've come to rely on it for in-mission movement (I dislike having to worry about full 3D movement during combat so I can't stand hover).
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I still often take Hover before Fly (and yes I take and like Fly) because I'd rather have the tactical capability in missions earlier than I worry about getting to (most) missions faster.
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Just to check:|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Unless they added something new, they don't increase your flight speed with Fly, because it puts you at the flight speed cap starting at around level 25 even with zero enhancement. They do fairly dramatically increase your movement speed with Hover, though. I still often take Hover before Fly (and yes I take and like Fly) because I'd rather have the tactical capability in missions earlier than I worry about getting to (most) missions faster.
Edit: I'm not sure if they do anything (or can even be used) with Afterburner. |
Fly speed with Afterburner active: 116,40 Km/h
Fly speed with Afterburner and Dampfsprungjet active: 140,50 Km/h (This is denoted in blue as capped flight speed)
It should be noted that my Fly is not enhanced for fly speed.
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The limit on power pools certainly introduces some hard choices, separate from the choices created by the broader choices of what powers to take and which ones to slot how much. If I both had another power choice and could unlock all pool powers (and I was responding specifically to the post about unlocking all non-travel pool powers with one travel power pick), I promise you would have powers I do not have today that would noticeably benefit my character or my teammates. Being forced not to do that today makes me make hard choices. They aren't desperately hard, but they do make me think, and have to decide what I want more. I think that's a good thing, and am very cautious about removing that.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
It seems to me that the suggestion in question doesn't reduce the number of any "hard choices", though it does get rid of some nonsensical ones.
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To be clear where I stand on this sort of thing, I was not strongly opposed to inherent Fitness, and I took advantage of it as soon as it was an option, but it was not something I ever would have asked the devs for, and I did not particularly support calls by my fellow players for us to get it. Much more than that, and I'm getting into territory where I think we're removing too many of the strictures.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
This is sort of a side issue that springs from the original suggestion rather than a direct issue. But I feel it relates.
One of the "problems" resulting from all the Fitness pool being made inherent was the resulting extra powers one had to select to fill those gaps in your old build. This potentially ended up with fewer slots being available for other powers in your build if you replaced a definite one-slotter like Swift or Hurdle with a power that required a few more slots to make it efficient like one of the Patron/Epic power pool choices.
That being said, if the Devs EVER decide to make ANY power or grouping of powers inherent again, I would like to see that change accompanied by an increase in the total number of slots available to 50th level character. Either start the 3-slotting per level up earlier than 31st or add two or three 4-slotting levels at and before 50th.
Another thing... If the Devs decide to make ANYTHING Inherent from among the power pools, they NEED to add more powers from which we can select to fill those gaps in our builds. It irks me to have to take a power that is either useless to me or totally against my character concept simply because a power I would normally have purchased is now a freebie.
Oh... one other suggestion that occurred to me...
A compromise: You may select one Travel Power of the four currently available as an inherent at character creation. The problem? This Inherent version is completely un-enhanceable. It also does improves at 1/2 the normal rate per level advancement so the Inherent would only be like that of a current 25th level character if your 50th had it. If you decide to spend a power slot on it you get full enhancement and advancement potential.
My mind wanders so often you've probably seen its picture on milk cartons. - Me... the first person version of the third person Steelclaw
I would like the travel power itself to be inherent and then the option to choose related abilities from a pool power. For example, if I am able to choose an inherent travel power at level 6 (for example) and I choose Teleport, then the Teleport pool would be open for me to buy the other abilities if I so desired. I'd possibly rework the pool powers to make them a bit more useful.
I always thought that, since Flight and Super Jump have powers to grant some defense, it would be cool to have a defensive teleport ability-- say teleporting randomly around your foe (staying in melee or line-of-sight) and gaining a defensive bonus.
Est sularis oth Mithas
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Heck, I wish there were more to choose from now. More and more I find myself at a level where I either have every available Primary and Secondary power or every available one I want and there are no Pool powers that I want to pick up. Occasionally I've even gotten the Travel power I wanted and been in that position. I've taken Presence powers on a few characters just for oddball filler that I probably won't ever use/slot but which kinda sorta fits the character. I hate Fighting, I hate Medicine, and I don't always want Leadership. There was a time I'd occasionally ponder Stealth, but that's been a rare occasion for quite some time. It gets even worse later on if none of the APPs fit.
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Originally Posted by Steelclaw
Another thing... If the Devs decide to make ANYTHING Inherent from among the power pools, they NEED to add more powers from which we can select to fill those gaps in our builds. It irks me to have to take a power that is either useless to me or totally against my character concept simply because a power I would normally have purchased is now a freebie.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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you're still slower than everyone else in most cases|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
Your first point is effectively my argument but you said it better. Fully agree with your 2nd point. Travel powers as are, are mostly pants especially in comparison to Rocket Board. Why would I waste a valuable slot for a junk power when 80 points gets me a power I can travel the entire game with from level 2, forever, on all my characters?
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Rocket Board is nice, but I hate the fact it detoggles everything
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This is pretty much where I am. Ninja Run is slower than SJ, slotted or no. I can get by with Ninja Run, sure, but I'd prefer the extra speed (and height) of SJ. So I take SJ whenever possible, but if the build is so tight that I just can't squeeze it in and reach my other goals, it gets sacrificed for the overall build and I use Ninja Run primarily. The point being it is a sacrifice to skip SJ, however small that sacrifice may be to some. It is significant to me. In my opinion that's just about as it should be.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Being forced not to do that today makes me make hard choices. They aren't desperately hard, but they do make me think, and have to decide what I want more. I think that's a good thing, and am very cautious about removing that.
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Sounds great to me! It'd give me a reason to pick something besides Ninja Run as my travel power. :P
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Originally Posted by Steelclaw
I pretty much agree with your argument. The advent of so many travel-oriented temporary powers has made the existing travel powers (as they are now) a little redundant.
I would suggest one of two options. 1) Make ONE travel power Inherent upon character creation. So, you can pick one of the existing four at creation. This will be greyed out as a taken power when you later go to the Power Pool tables. If you want MORE than that one travel power then you have to spend a slot on it as normal. In any case, the inherent power chosen will count as credit towards later pool powers that require "credit" to choose. |
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You will have to explain that one to me, since nothing that is possible now would be impossible under this scheme except the character that has Hasten, Combat Jump, Recall Friend and Hover and no true movement power. Forgive me if I don't believe that covers 90% of your characters |
Originally Posted by rsclark
And in the process invalidate 90% of my characters.
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If you are currently using Beast Run or Ninja Run as your main movement power, you would loose one power selection but you would gain the ability to slot it.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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You left out the "For me" bit. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
For [b]me to think[/b ] it to be brilliant, it needs to be solving a problem. Since I don't see a problem, I don't see a reason to introduce change.
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It does solve some problems though.
1) There is a "significant" disjoint between the effectiveness of certain qualifying powers for certain pools. Hasten provides benefit to everyone. Hover is pointless for many and maybe more useful for people that want Teleport. This suggestion would even that out.
2) It would make it much easier to add new travel powers under this model. Okay, so less of a problem and more an opportunity. However I do think the game would be better if Ninja Run and Beast Run were actual power choices rather than some strange ability now gained by all my characters!
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I don't understand why everyone wants everything to have so fewer hard choices. Well, I understand why they want it, but I don't understand why they always think its such a great idea to actually do.
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However I don't believe my suggestion would be caustic to build options.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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I can think of a few reasons that, at least for me, are deal breaking.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
Your first point is effectively my argument but you said it better. Fully agree with your 2nd point. Travel powers as are, are mostly pants especially in comparison to Rocket Board. Why would I waste a valuable slot for a junk power when 80 points gets me a power I can travel the entire game with from level 2, forever, on all my characters?
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1) The regular travel powers don't cost 80 points, they're free.
2) I can still use my powers while using the regular travel powers, which makes them useful in missions. I got a number of flyers that never touch the ground, they either hover or fly all the time. Can't do that on rocket boards, nor can you ghost missions with it.
3) If I have to choose between concept and performance, concept usually wins out (up to a point). I don't have a single character that would use something like the hover board, so I never bought it.
I do have a few characters that use ninja run and one that uses beast run as their travel power, but again that is for concept reasons and has little to do with build efficiency or performance. I even have a character that uses 3 slotted sprint. (I would LOVE a ninja run like power that doesn't use the ninja stance but is more like parkour.)
That being said, I do get your point, and I am in favor of making the classic travel powers inherent. I would make one of the travel power(pool)s selectable on character creation.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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I can agree with this. Travel powers themselves are now open directly to level 4 players, but the fourth and fifth powers are not. So if I picked Teleport as my travel power but chose to take neither Teleport Foe (because it sucks) nor Recall Friend (because I rarely team) and chose Hover, instead (so as I don't drop out of the sky if I lag a bit), then taking Zone Teleport would require me to take a wasted power just to have it. If, by contrast, I say "This character is a teleporter!" and have teleportation powers open to me, that would help greatly.|
Originally Posted by Arnabas
I would like the travel power itself to be inherent and then the option to choose related abilities from a pool power. For example, if I am able to choose an inherent travel power at level 6 (for example) and I choose Teleport, then the Teleport pool would be open for me to buy the other abilities if I so desired. I'd possibly rework the pool powers to make them a bit more useful.
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Of course, this opens the other can of worms, in that Group Flight, Group Teleport and Whirlwind are... Not very good, while Acrobatics is pretty good for non-melee, meaning that this initial choice is loaded with mechanical advantages, as opposed to being conceptual. To be honest, I'm really not sure if putting non-travel-related powers in travel pools was a good idea to begin with, as it couples a concept-defining method of locomotion with mechanical benefits that could, in some cases, override conceptual choice. I guess... Swap Travel Pool fifth and fourth powers so you can open up the new travel boosts straight away, but not the bigger boosts? I don't know...
One of the reasons that this WILL keep cropping up from time to time is that's how Champions Online did it. I know that's bad form to mention, but another game offers its players a travel power choice as a character-inherent attribute. So long as this exists, the request will keep being made.
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I'm not sure this eliminates any real hard choices, to be honest. At least not from where I'm standing. Short of Dark Armour, I haven't had a character who didn't take all 18 of his primary and secondary powers and two pool powers related to travel, for a total of 20 choices out of 24. This really isn't a choice to me, that's just how I build. The last four power picks are the real choice. Which Epic do I go for? Do I go for an Epic at all? Which four of the five Epic powers do I pick?
Being able to spare myself a travel power pick wouldn't really spare me this choice, as if I don't pick a second pool power before 30, I'm forced to take one then, as I run out of primary and secondary powers, and Epics don't open until 35. It is, therefore, functionally impossible to pick 9 primary powers, 9 secondary powers, 1 pool power and 5 Epic powers. I can't GET to Epics without having taken at least two pool powers.
That said, I'm not against having more options of powers to pick, both from pools and from Epics. I'd love to see more pools added to the game, more powers added to existing pools and DEFINITELY more Epics added. Scrappers still don't have an Electric Epic, after all.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Thats why I suggested merging them all into one pool. Pick one travel power first which then unlocks all the other options.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I can agree with this. Travel powers themselves are now open directly to level 4 players, but the fourth and fifth powers are not. So if I picked Teleport as my travel power but chose to take neither Teleport Foe (because it sucks) nor Recall Friend (because I rarely team) and chose Hover, instead (so as I don't drop out of the sky if I lag a bit), then taking Zone Teleport would require me to take a wasted power just to have it. If, by contrast, I say "This character is a teleporter!" and have teleportation powers open to me, that would help greatly.
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I only take Hover on Teleporters or characters with Snipe attacks. I find Fly works better for my Melees than Hover. Air Sup is great for melees that melee with their fists but the ones that use weapons wish they had a different choice
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
Personally, before we got Fitness for free, I rarely took Travel Powers on any character. Some of my favorite characters from comics don't have a travel power, so why should I?
Now it's just "Oh, I have 3 free powers.... hmm, I guess Recall Friend and Super Jump and X."
We have too many ways to travel around the city: trams, SG teleports, Teleport to Contact, Ouro, Jet Packs, those superjump packs, Pocket D access, and Vanguard Base that making travel powers inherent would be silly.
I have two characters that use the Rocket Board. Neither of them have toggles. I like having a travel power that I can use in mission without having to worry about turning my defenses back on before I leap into a group of enemies.
Oh, that's another thing, you can have Flight and Stealth active at the same time.