City of Heroes is the World Wrestling Federation of Superhero MMOs
By
3dent,
Posted on: 2011-10-26 18:24 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by Traegus
knowing them personally is completely different then being a fan of wrasslin'
as a matter of fact, an old old wrestler named Junk Yard Dog was a friend of a family member of mine. Met him twice, nicest damned guy you ever wanted to meet, but that still wasn't even close to enough to make me watch wrestling. |
Like I said, I get to hang out after the shows. Which implies fan to me.
I've been a fan of pro wrestling for years, since I was about 8 or so. My first show was when I was 3 days old. Been watching it since then, some 40 years, 3 months and 4 days later.
My mom went to High School with Rosey Greer. He made me an afghan, and babysitted me a few times, but I still cannot sit through a football game without getting bored.
So I agree, knowing them personally is not the same as being a fan, just that you misread my post. If I'm willing to hang around after the show, implying that 1) I go to shows and 2) I hang around afterwards, I am a fan.
Edited for spelling error.
With the tactics thing I think Remus is trying to say thay are pointless nos because Inherant stamina has made all AT's hideously OP now because the have no choice but to take all 9 powers from their primary and secondary pools. Which is complete nonsence. And as as for non standard builds not being viable any more, one of my few 50's is something I call a blanker (horrible name but oh well). A blaster/tank. built around a fire/MM/Fire build from the forums way back. loved leveling her to 50, mostly with my SG and the odd pug TF's. Haven't had a chance to test her out after returning and respecing her to inherant fitness, but boy am I looking forward to it. Though she could never be a primary tank on a team, he is most comfy up there with him PB/AOE mezzing and melting anything that gets in range.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
 |
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shhhhh, you're breakin' kayfabe! |
Originally Posted by St_Angelius
But then, OP is asking for an "Attitude Era" for CoX, But the Attitude era was the biggest gimmick yet for then WWF. Former Blonde Bombshell Steve Austin running round beating up the boss and his family, the birth of DX, Undertaker goes biker so he doesn't have to use his old signature move for a while after shattering both knee caps performing it, The Rock, The return of Mick Folly, and Mick Folly and Mick Folly, and getting drawn 3 times in the same royal rumble, as different characters....
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Wrestling: SRS BZNS
My characters at Virtueverse
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I *used* to have power burst and sniper blast back when fitness was not inherent. Now that it is inherent, I don't. Fancy that.|
Originally Posted by St_Angelius
With the tactics thing I think Remus is trying to say thay are pointless nos because Inherant stamina has made all AT's hideously OP now because the have no choice but to take all 9 powers from their primary and secondary pools. Which is complete nonsence.
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What happened was that the +recharge available in the invention pool combined with the +recharge proc allowed me to build enough recharge to be able to make full or near full attack chains without burst, which while it does more damage than bolt and blast it also has shorter range. My attack chain is now comprised of powers that all have eighty feet of base range: power bolt, power blast, and explosive blast. At shorter range I can make chains that include both torrent and EB and have way more AoE than Energy blasters are really supposed to have. So while burst has a *tiny* bit higher DPA than power blast, my recharge allows me to kiss that power goodbye without any significant loss of offensive firepower, and I don't need a short range attack that won't work at the longer ranges the rest of my attacks will.
And I lost sniper blast because with a lot more power choices available to me and inherent stamina to power them, it was now viable to consider a build that took fighting and force mastery, and run tough, weave, and temporary invulnerability. That was not practical pre-I9. But to really fit everything in the way I wanted, I had to sacrifice Sniper Blast: I had neither the power choices nor more importantly the slots to really have that power effective. I had the choice to keep it by trading PFF, TI, and FoN for Snow Storm and Frozen Armor (which actually were the epic powers I had in my pre-I19 build). I wasn't locked in: I could go either way.
But this build still had a small problem: the defense wasn't astounding and I built for speed not range-capping, so stuff was still going to get through. Not a lot, but I would need an occasional heal. I not only sacrificed Sniper Blast, I also sacrificed aid self in my pursuit of speed and defense (mostly speed). I could keep greens handy, and I did, but the incarnate powers offered an alternative. I could buy into Destiny Rebirth. From tier 1 I had a very strong heal that I could use every two minutes and it also had a significant regeneration boost past the heal: it helped a lot more than a two minute heal sounds like it would. And at tier 4, I have a powerful heal I can use every two minutes *plus* I have continuous regeneration entering the range of a regen scrapper: the *lowest* my regeneration is if I cycle Destiny is 560%, between inherent Health and invention bonuses and the lowest Rebirth buff (+200%) boosted by Spiritual Alpha.
Was I forced into this build? Heck: its possible I'm the only person playing it. But do I suffer for not being range capped? In some sense yes, but in another sense no. I can do what other blasters can't with my build, and I can always gain temporary range capping with lucks: a range capped blaster cannot stock inspirations to temporarily get to +160% recharge or higher. But the most important thing about the build is that its fun to play, its not gimped, and in fact it can readily participate in any content just fine. Its different, and its interesting in a way no other blaster primary/secondary combination can replicate.
I hear how inventions and incarnates ruined the diversity of the game, and then I look at my main's build. While I think certain things like Judgment are more homogenizing than they should be, I think anyone who thinks it doesn't matter what powersets you have or thinks everyone is forced into the same builds just isn't creative enough.
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That sounds like a very interesting build, not one i think would work for neo, but still, very nice. I had an SG mate help out with neo's build, gained tough, weave, maneuvers and repulsion bomb. endeded up with 48.2% smashing and 45.7% lethal resistance, 12.7-23.1% for typed defence and 12.7/21.2/14.3% for M/R/AOE defence. end use went up, but due to better slotting so did recovery and better status resist too. Only on T2 cardiac alpha core so far and loving it, and this is a theme toon not a min/maxed one. no power push an none of the melee attacks from energy manip. yes, i know i miss out on some mitigation, but it's not much of a problem as if i really get in trouble I can cap s/l resistance and get 51-58% in the rest (except psi) from force of nature, and if things really go belly up, still have PFF 82-92% to all defences, plus cap all resistance if FoN is still running as a panic button, if I remember it is there.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I *used* to have power burst and sniper blast back when fitness was not inherent. Now that it is inherent, I don't. Fancy that.
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Does anyone else use a build like this, I doubt it, will they, probably not, but it fits my play style and works wonderfully. Now I'm more of a polycarbon cannon than a glass cannon.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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You know, when you think about it, the way the opening post is written is actually a bit of a gimmick 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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For a moment there I had hoped that there was an inspiration that acted like Boost Range. Though, to be fair, with Power Boost and Long Rang Missile, I'm already at the point where my computer doesn't render enemies at the acme of my attack range.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
But do I suffer for not being range capped? In some sense yes, but in another sense no. I can do what other blasters can't with my build, and I can always gain temporary range capping with lucks
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We were all worried the worst had happened...oh my.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It was just a passing problem - I'm totally ok again now
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I do agree that with inventions, incarnates, AE, are all good features, but when they are not fleshed out enough they end up being gimmicky.
*takes notes on engy blasting*
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It's endemic, Arcanaville. On a team it's impossible to find people who will work with me to develop a strategy. The mindset in the game is zerg rush first and last and always.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Name one example of old school content that by your standards of strategy allowed alternate strategies for victory that doesn't still offer them or have a newer analog with the exact same options.
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Let's take the old Positron TF. Often teams would get stuck in the CoP missions, with no knockback protection to keep the Ruin Mages from wrecking them and swarmed by accuracy-draining ghosts. Without some strategy -- careful pulling, focusing damage on called targets -- these missions could be impossible to get through. With a little planning and with everyone working together they were tedious but not that hard.
Now...well, accuracy at low level has been buffed, characters no longer have to work toward stamina so they're more likely to have KB protection in their teens, they get powers at +5 their level anyway when exemped down, and they have inspiration dispensers to fill them with break frees and insights. Oh, and the TF was rewritten to eliminate the problem encounters entirely. There's no reason not to zerg in, pop as many inspirations as you can, and if you die you buy more at the hospital and zerg again. (The new, reduced death penalty comes into this also; zerging is the popular strategy because nobody cares if they die.) That's the extent of strategy left in this game. Teams don't listen when you suggest using strategy, because braindead button-mashing works.
When soloing there's more occasion for strategy. But characters are more powerful, so there's less reason to use it. And the new content seems to actively discourage inventive strategies -- if you're constantly besieged by ambushes that can see invisible and track you anywhere, what else can you do but stand your ground and eat lucks like candy?
Could I play only the old missions, intentionally gimp my characters, and use tactics to win missions? Sure I could. But then I'm playing 2004 content that I've already seen dozens of times already. That's not something worth sticking around for.
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| I am one of the the most strategic thinking players that likely plays this game. |
In the first month after release, I did a study of defense powers and released them in a spreadsheet here on the forums. I think I got mine out before yours. But I didn't go any further -- I just wanted enough information about the powers to plan interesting builds. You have a zeal for exploring the game mechanics, and I admire that about you.
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| I've been examining the strategic and tactical options of the game since about the very beginning. I was involved in inventing tactics for Hamidon (both versions), LRSF (in beta) and I still find myself helping leaders devise strategies for newer advanced content (like the incarnate trials). |
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| To the extent the game has no strategic options, it never had them. To the extent it had them, it still has them now. If you believe the game no longer supports tactical thinking, its because your standards have changed, not the game's standards. |
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| Now as to things like blappers no longer being viable options because of inherent stamina and inventions, I'm not even sure where to begin contradicting that one. But I can say I was a blapper from I3 to I19, and only switched to a ranged build recently for variety. I was otherwise functioning perfectly fine as a blapper: in fact my first experiences with the newest advanced content: Tin Mage, Apex, BAF, and Lambda, were all as a blapper. |
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| In many ways, my Scrapper just became increasingly scrappier, and my Tankers just became more indestructible with inventions and then incarnate powers. But both inventions and incarnate abilities opened a lot of new avenues for my controllers, my blasters, my corruptors, my defenders. There is some unfortunate homogenization inherent in the incarnate powers themselves, but otherwise on the whole I have a lot more options than I did in the past. And I don't have anything particular to say about the notion that all powersets now basically perform and play the same, except to say that's totally false. |
To give a challenge you must give players choices that have consequences. If all scrappers can become equally scrappy, all tankers can become equally tanky, and all squishies can become equally non-squishy...where are the consequences? What good is the choice?
And that's before we get to the bland, AT-obsoleting commonality of incarnate powers.
I just feel that I'm on autopilot when I plan character builds these days. Eight powers from column A, eight powers from column B, a travel power, combat jumping and then choose an epic pool. Powerset? Doesn't matter. Yawn.
The game has become easier. It has more story content, but less substantial gameplay. Flashy gimmicks like monthly costume releases will not bring back the players who want a game that engages their mind.
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I never have been on auto piolt planning a build, and very rarely do I choose all, or even 8/9 of the powers from primary and secondary build, if you do it speaks more of your decline in tactical thinking than Mine. I have 3 blasters at 50, only 1 has any form or incarnate abilities so far, and then only teir 2 alpha, don't have the time or hardware for ifarms, and all 3 play very differently. Neo Chamber is energy/energy/force, 8 primary, 4 secondary, 4 epic, the rest are from 4 pools, he's pretty much your standard blaster, not much for close range, brawl, kick, power thrust sands of mu, but he can take a fair battering that other blasters don't. Tess Trueshot is n extreme range sniper Acrchery/energy/munition, with 8/5/3 power picks giving her 2 snipes. and built for range and regularly hunts EB's solo on outdoor maps but starting off beyond the draw distance of my gameing rig and getting 3 snipes in before they can hope to shot back. |
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
I just feel that I'm on autopilot when I plan character builds these days. Eight powers from column A, eight powers from column B, a travel power, combat jumping and then choose an epic pool. Powerset? Doesn't matter. Yawn.
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Lastly I have Psi-Fire, my mezzing blaster tank, Fire/MM/Flame with 5/6/3 powers taken from those pools, her play style is following on the tanks heels confusing and disorinting anything that comes near then melting them. her pool picks help her survive doing this. If, like you I took all the powers from my primary and secondaries I wouldn't. so please, tell me again how I'm forced into the same build as everyone else!
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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Fair enough. Here are some simple strategies against different enemy groups, if we were fighting the old way:|
Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU
Alrighty Remus, put your money where your mouth is and tell us what these 'strategies' were. Infact any of them for ATs where 'hit or shoot stuff' is the MO their play style.
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Hellions, Skuls -- Focus fire on the bosses or they will wreck you. Minions and Lts are ignorable, but if you're solo and defense based take out the ones with def-reducing attacks.
Clockwork -- Manage the teslas first of all; either get their aggro on the tank or kill them quick. Save AoEs for after bosses' deaths to sweep away gears. Teammates with recovery boosting powers are valuable here.
Circle of Thorns -- For most levels, the Lts are the dangerous ones. Air and earth mages can screw up a team's squishies, while the Lt ghosts do massive damage and accuracy drains. Focus fire on those Lts. An exception is the Ruin Mage, especially at low level. Wait until he drops an earthquake then pull him to a spot away from it and kill him.
The Council -- Focus fire on bosses. Secondary targets are the riflemen, who have massive slows and def-reducing attacks.
Freakshow -- Anything with 'shock' in its name has sleep and/or stuns; focus fire on them. Squishies should not fight bosses in close range. If possible fight from the air, as Freakshow have few ranged attacks although some of them fly.
Sky Raiders -- First target are the engineers, who create shield drones. Bosses can be extremely dangerous and durable, and most of them explode on death. Be ready to heal meleers right after a boss goes down, and squishies should fight at range.
Nemesis -- Lts use vengeance on death, so kill minions and bosses first and avoid using AoE damage. Warhulks and jaegers will explode on death.
Devouring Earth -- Park the bosses near a tank and ignore them. Focus on the Lts, who spawn eminators, and the fungoids who toss sleeps.
This is not secret knowledge. None of you reading this are idiots -- you know all of the above tactics already. But I don't see players doing any of that. What I see is everyone fighting the 'new' way:
Hellions, Skuls -- Pop a purple. Zerg.
Clockwork -- Pop a purple. Zerg.
Circle of Thorns -- Pop a purple. Zerg.
The Council -- Pop a purple. Zerg.
Freakshow -- Pop a purple. Zerg.
Sky Raiders -- Pop a purple. Zerg.
Nemesis -- Pop a purple. Zerg.
Devouring Earth -- Pop a purple. Zerg.
Maybe it's because I've lost my SG and I mostly team with PUGs these days. Maybe I'm just playing with idiots. But there sure seems to be a lot more idiots than there used to be, and the game is encouraging them to act that way.
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| Building a character is not a Strategy, it's a logistical thing and as I pointed out earlier could be entirely invalidated by looking up a build/build guide on the forums. |
I'll give you an example. My controller 'Fernguard' is a Plant/TA. I designed her as a scraptroller, focusing mostly on holds and melee attacks, and with high defenses.
In order to pack the Fitness pool, Flying pool (for flight and Air superiority), and Fighting pool into her build, I had to make sacrifices. I didn't take spirit tree and a few of her secondary arrow debuffs. But in return I had a character that did good damage in melee (thanks to containment), had maxed slash/lethal resistance, and a fair amount of defense.
Then the travel powers were given with no prerequisite, and stamina became inherent.
Suddenly I had four additional power choices. I kept air superiority because it fit my concept. But I was forced to take the powers I had skipped from my primary and secondary. (My only other option was to take another power pool that I couldn't slot, which seemed worse than useless.)
What did all the other controllers who already had their primary and secondary powers take with their four extra powers? Air superiority and the fighting pool.
So now Fernguard has a build that's almost identical to every other controller with her powerset, and pretty similar to every other controller no matter what set they are. And I still call her a scraptroller, because...why? Nostalgia?
By giving us more power slots but no new power options (such as new power pools), the devs removed consequential choice from character building. All characters were driven toward the same standardized power selections. There are no other options. And thus creativity was no longer necessary or desirable in character design. Go look up a build on the forums; it's as good as anything else.
Nobody finds this sad, other than me? Nobody misses -- or even remembers -- when we used to apply intelligence and logic to figuring out the puzzles of this game system?
Maybe everyone like me has already left?
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I think the issue here is that, for some reason, the way you played before left you thinking you needed to do all those things. That level of planning combat in CoH has never been necessary to the degree you outline above. I and those I played with never did any of these things except target Nemsis LTs last and DE emanators/LTs first, and we essentially never had any problems.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
Fair enough. Here are some simple strategies against different enemy groups, if we were fighting the old way:
Hellions, Skuls -- Focus fire on the bosses or they will wreck you. Minions and Lts are ignorable, but if you're solo and defense based take out the ones with def-reducing attacks. Clockwork -- Manage the teslas first of all; either get their aggro on the tank or kill them quick. Save AoEs for after bosses' deaths to sweep away gears. Teammates with recovery boosting powers are valuable here. Circle of Thorns -- For most levels, the Lts are the dangerous ones. Air and earth mages can screw up a team's squishies, while the Lt ghosts do massive damage and accuracy drains. Focus fire on those Lts. An exception is the Ruin Mage, especially at low level. Wait until he drops an earthquake then pull him to a spot away from it and kill him. The Council -- Focus fire on bosses. Secondary targets are the riflemen, who have massive slows and def-reducing attacks. Freakshow -- Anything with 'shock' in its name has sleep and/or stuns; focus fire on them. Squishies should not fight bosses in close range. If possible fight from the air, as Freakshow have few ranged attacks although some of them fly. Sky Raiders -- First target are the engineers, who create shield drones. Bosses can be extremely dangerous and durable, and most of them explode on death. Be ready to heal meleers right after a boss goes down, and squishies should fight at range. Nemesis -- Lts use vengeance on death, so kill minions and bosses first and avoid using AoE damage. Warhulks and jaegers will explode on death. Devouring Earth -- Park the bosses near a tank and ignore them. Focus on the Lts, who spawn eminators, and the fungoids who toss sleeps. |
(By the way, I and everyone I play with still tries to defeat Nemesis LTs last, because enough stacked Vengeance on survivors (especially bosses) and they will still wreck you, Inventions and Incarnates notwithstanding. We target Cairn and Quartz emenators, and ingore/AoE the rest.)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Yeah, I knew about and used all those strategies. I was actually kinda hoping he had some insight into the game that was never aware of. But, uhm... yeah.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I think the issue here is that, for some reason, the way you played before left you thinking you needed to do all those things. That level of planning combat in CoH has never been necessary to the degree you outline above. I and those I played with never did any of these things except target Nemsis LTs last and DE emanators/LTs first, and we essentially never had any problems.
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| (By the way, I and everyone I play with still tries to defeat Nemesis LTs last, because enough stacked Vengeance on survivors (especially bosses) and they will still wreck you, Inventions and Incarnates notwithstanding. We target Cairn and Quartz emenators, and ingore/AoE the rest.) |
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You seem to have accumulated a crowd of tomato-throwers, but for what it's worth, I mostly agree with this; only difference is, I believe the puzzle is still there. For a couple of my oddest examples, I've made sacrifices to have a tough-and-rumble archery defender that can put up a decent fight in melee range, and I even have a controller that taunts and tanks by soaking up damage through a strange combination of power picks and enhancement slots. They might seem gimped to anyone who wasn't aware how to exploit their greatest strengths.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
Fair enough. Here are some simple strategies against different enemy groups, if we were fighting the old way:
Hellions, Skuls -- Focus fire on the bosses or they will wreck you. Minions and Lts are ignorable, but if you're solo and defense based take out the ones with def-reducing attacks. Clockwork -- Manage the teslas first of all; either get their aggro on the tank or kill them quick. Save AoEs for after bosses' deaths to sweep away gears. Teammates with recovery boosting powers are valuable here. Circle of Thorns -- For most levels, the Lts are the dangerous ones. Air and earth mages can screw up a team's squishies, while the Lt ghosts do massive damage and accuracy drains. Focus fire on those Lts. An exception is the Ruin Mage, especially at low level. Wait until he drops an earthquake then pull him to a spot away from it and kill him. The Council -- Focus fire on bosses. Secondary targets are the riflemen, who have massive slows and def-reducing attacks. Freakshow -- Anything with 'shock' in its name has sleep and/or stuns; focus fire on them. Squishies should not fight bosses in close range. If possible fight from the air, as Freakshow have few ranged attacks although some of them fly. Sky Raiders -- First target are the engineers, who create shield drones. Bosses can be extremely dangerous and durable, and most of them explode on death. Be ready to heal meleers right after a boss goes down, and squishies should fight at range. Nemesis -- Lts use vengeance on death, so kill minions and bosses first and avoid using AoE damage. Warhulks and jaegers will explode on death. Devouring Earth -- Park the bosses near a tank and ignore them. Focus on the Lts, who spawn eminators, and the fungoids who toss sleeps. This is not secret knowledge. None of you reading this are idiots -- you know all of the above tactics already. But I don't see players doing any of that. What I see is everyone fighting the 'new' way: Hellions, Skuls -- Pop a purple. Zerg. Clockwork -- Pop a purple. Zerg. Circle of Thorns -- Pop a purple. Zerg. The Council -- Pop a purple. Zerg. Freakshow -- Pop a purple. Zerg. Sky Raiders -- Pop a purple. Zerg. Nemesis -- Pop a purple. Zerg. Devouring Earth -- Pop a purple. Zerg. Maybe it's because I've lost my SG and I mostly team with PUGs these days. Maybe I'm just playing with idiots. But there sure seems to be a lot more idiots than there used to be, and the game is encouraging them to act that way. Some people just look up builds, yes. But for some people like myself, building a character can be an exercise in creativity, and it takes strategy and thought to make a character build that's unique and functional. Or at least it used to. I'll give you an example. My controller 'Fernguard' is a Plant/TA. I designed her as a scraptroller, focusing mostly on holds and melee attacks, and with high defenses. In order to pack the Fitness pool, Flying pool (for flight and Air superiority), and Fighting pool into her build, I had to make sacrifices. I didn't take spirit tree and a few of her secondary arrow debuffs. But in return I had a character that did good damage in melee (thanks to containment), had maxed slash/lethal resistance, and a fair amount of defense. Then the travel powers were given with no prerequisite, and stamina became inherent. Suddenly I had four additional power choices. I kept air superiority because it fit my concept. But I was forced to take the powers I had skipped from my primary and secondary. (My only other option was to take another power pool that I couldn't slot, which seemed worse than useless.) What did all the other controllers who already had their primary and secondary powers take with their four extra powers? Air superiority and the fighting pool. So now Fernguard has a build that's almost identical to every other controller with her powerset, and pretty similar to every other controller no matter what set they are. And I still call her a scraptroller, because...why? Nostalgia? By giving us more power slots but no new power options (such as new power pools), the devs removed consequential choice from character building. All characters were driven toward the same standardized power selections. There are no other options. And thus creativity was no longer necessary or desirable in character design. Go look up a build on the forums; it's as good as anything else. Nobody finds this sad, other than me? Nobody misses -- or even remembers -- when we used to apply intelligence and logic to figuring out the puzzles of this game system? Maybe everyone like me has already left? |
That being said, I won't complain if the devs give us more puzzle pieces to play with.
As for combat strategies, I think you'd be assuming A LOT to say that everybody knows those things in the era of Issue 21. On my teams I take it slow sometimes and help educate people on strategies, and I generally get thanked for it.
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I thought that purple Inspirations had been in the game from the start?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Unless there used to be some mob to-hit nerf in the distant past I'm not aware of, "Pop a purple. Zerg." always had been pretty much universal "I Win" button, that should've been fairly obvious to anyone who thought for a moment about how a to-hit roll in this game works or had any experience with D&D.
And it's not like devs weren't trying to make it less so. RIP with leadership toggles, Nemesis with venge, Cimerorans with their buffs/debuffs, Praetorians with their higher TH... Latter are the newest major mob group in the game, and measures devs went to to discourage softcap-zerging them aren't exactly light. That doesn't even count gimmicky bosses with unavoidable damage.
So, it's definitely not the game changing. It's more and more of the playerbase discovering the 45% magic, either on their own, or through reading forum guides.
FWIW, I dislike how to-hit roll in this game works, precisely because of this, - answer to the question of Life, CoXverse and Everything is 45, and no amount of tactics, heals, damage resists or anything seems to be EVER as effective as simply crunching half a dozen numbers untill they all add up to 45% (or 59%.) Or just becoming a purple-shield junkie. The only thing that even comes close is AoE permahold, for a few ATs that have tools for that.
But again, this was the flaw of the game mechanics FOR AGES. Even before EDIT: dev team /EDIT relented and made Real Numbers available, people knew how to-hit worked well enough to figure the softcap. Knowledge might be more widespread now, but the issue was always there, it's just that more people know of it now. And developers tried to do what they could to discourage it, short of total redesign of TH roll (Which would be much less popular than ED ever was, for all the long-term good it may do to playability and balance. And thus it is totally off the table.)
ADD: And although I don't think Samuel_Tow is right in bashing all the recent content for too much story-focusing and as "another Dr. Graves," ability to defeat hordes of mooks with contemptuous ease is the reason why super-powers are called "super-powers" in the first place, and yes, the game ought to have more of that. AND good stories and innovative mechanics. Tall order, I know.
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I'm under the firm belief that GG is really Twixt on his main account.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I thought that purple Inspirations had been in the game from the start?
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pohsyb: so of all people you must be most excited about the veats
Arachnos Commander: actually, I am
pohsyb: I mean you kinda were one already anyways ^_^
Arachnos Commander:
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No they're new. They put them in when issue 35 released a few days ago.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I thought that purple Inspirations had been in the game from the start?
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Apparently I'm to stupid right now to make an awesome link with a picture and stuff but neverthelss sign the petition! [u]http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes[u]
on yet third thought... I don't really want the game to ever be like "Christ. OK, uhh well what we’ll do, I’ll run in
first, uh gather up all the eggs, we can kinda just, ya know blast
them all down with AOE. Um, I will use Intimidating Shout, to kinda
scatter’em, so we don’t have to fight a whole bunch of them at once.
Uhh, when my Shouts are done, uhh, I’ll need Anfrony to come in and
drop his Shout too, uh so we can keep them scattered and not have to
fight too many. Um, when his is done, Bass of course will need to
run in and do the same thing. Uhh, we’re gonna need Divine
Intervention on our mages, uhh so they can, uhh, AE, uh so we can of
course get them down fast, cause we’re bringing all these guys, I
mean, we’ll be in trouble if we don’t take them down quick. Uhh I
think this is a pretty good plan, we should be able to pull it off
this time. Uhh, what do you think Abduhl? Can you give me a number
crunch real quick?
Abduhl: Uhhh.. yeah gimme a sec… I’m coming up with thirty-two
point three three, repeating of course, percentage, of survival."
type of game. There's already PLENTY of games where you need this to succeed.
It's just that we get in a sense the worst of all worlds, - first extremelly nerdy (but fairly simplistic, and thus kinda boring the nth time around) number-crunching and gear-grinding to get those 45% def and whatever global rech is needed for the best attack chain/perma buffs, then beat most of the things in the game by just leeroying around. Or even just skipping to success by leeroying around.
ADD: Which is all a question of balance between "hordes of mooks" and "gimmicky final bosses," of mutually contradictory requirements (a polite way to say that everyone likes challenges but nobody particularly likes to fail at them,) technical limitations, fairness to hardcore AND casual players, and the fact that whatever happens, there always would be cookie-cutter OP builds and one-size-fits-all non-stratagems. So, unless Paragon Studios has a game design super-genius on staff, I don't expect anything that would really solve complaints in this thread. That's just how MMORPGs work. 
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And you know what?|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
Fair enough. Here are some simple strategies against different enemy groups, if we were fighting the old way:
Hellions, Skuls -- Focus fire on the bosses or they will wreck you. Minions and Lts are ignorable, but if you're solo and defense based take out the ones with def-reducing attacks. Clockwork -- Manage the teslas first of all; either get their aggro on the tank or kill them quick. Save AoEs for after bosses' deaths to sweep away gears. Teammates with recovery boosting powers are valuable here. Circle of Thorns -- For most levels, the Lts are the dangerous ones. Air and earth mages can screw up a team's squishies, while the Lt ghosts do massive damage and accuracy drains. Focus fire on those Lts. An exception is the Ruin Mage, especially at low level. Wait until he drops an earthquake then pull him to a spot away from it and kill him. The Council -- Focus fire on bosses. Secondary targets are the riflemen, who have massive slows and def-reducing attacks. Freakshow -- Anything with 'shock' in its name has sleep and/or stuns; focus fire on them. Squishies should not fight bosses in close range. If possible fight from the air, as Freakshow have few ranged attacks although some of them fly. Sky Raiders -- First target are the engineers, who create shield drones. Bosses can be extremely dangerous and durable, and most of them explode on death. Be ready to heal meleers right after a boss goes down, and squishies should fight at range. Nemesis -- Lts use vengeance on death, so kill minions and bosses first and avoid using AoE damage. Warhulks and jaegers will explode on death. Devouring Earth -- Park the bosses near a tank and ignore them. Focus on the Lts, who spawn eminators, and the fungoids who toss sleeps. This is not secret knowledge. None of you reading this are idiots -- you know all of the above tactics already. But I don't see players doing any of that. What I see is everyone fighting the 'new' way: Hellions, Skuls -- Pop a purple. Zerg. Clockwork -- Pop a purple. Zerg. Circle of Thorns -- Pop a purple. Zerg. The Council -- Pop a purple. Zerg. Freakshow -- Pop a purple. Zerg. Sky Raiders -- Pop a purple. Zerg. Nemesis -- Pop a purple. Zerg. Devouring Earth -- Pop a purple. Zerg. Maybe it's because I've lost my SG and I mostly team with PUGs these days. Maybe I'm just playing with idiots. But there sure seems to be a lot more idiots than there used to be, and the game is encouraging them to act that way. |
That has ALWAYS been true. And it's STILL true.
NOTHING has changed in that respect.
Seriously, get new glasses. These ones are Nostalgia coloured. Nemesis are STILL evil cheating gits. As are CoT Ghosts. And all the problem mobs are still there. And players are still as good or as stupid as they've always been.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Well, it used to be that combat modifiers for being 2-4 levels higher than your target would provide to-hit bonuses. That was changed to being an accuracy bonus around the same time that the Global Defense Reduction happened, I think. Perhaps a little beforehand.|
Originally Posted by 3dent
Unless there used to be some mob to-hit nerf in the distant past I'm not aware of,
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Most teams I'm on do have tactics, we just don't discuss them. We don't have to. We know what to do, we've played long enough. If something catastrophic happens, we'll discuss a better way to approach things in the future, but that's it.
As to the problem of "everyone has the same build," you're overstating the problem, but I think that having more choice is never a bad thing. If they added more power pools (not ancillary power pools, though it'd be nice to have more of those too), there would be more build options.
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I don't disagree with what you're saying, but tactics that no one really have to talk about are, well, not that worth mentioning. Not unless you're looking to share them with folks who don't know them yet, at least. And that's sort of the crux of the disagreement with RemusShepherd: it sounds like he's pining for the days back before we knew what we were doing.|
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Most teams I'm on do have tactics, we just don't discuss them. We don't have to. We know what to do, we've played long enough. If something catastrophic happens, we'll discuss a better way to approach things in the future, but that's it.
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The thing is, I don't think most of this took most of us very long to figure out what we were doing. There wasn't any grand era of tactical exploration and discovery for myself and people I knew. We figured out the basic mechanics of the AI within the first few months, and we've only had to adapt the resulting tactics when the AI has changed or new gimmicks were added.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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That, purple patch and GDN itself were major changes that occurred way before my time, but from http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Global_Defense_Nerf and historical parts of Arcanaville's guide...|
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Well, it used to be that combat modifiers for being 2-4 levels higher than your target would provide to-hit bonuses. That was changed to being an accuracy bonus around the same time that the Global Defense Reduction happened, I think. Perhaps a little beforehand.
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Big purple was always +33%.
Base TH for mobs was always 50% Lts and up used to have much higher TH than they do now though.
+Def powers were ~1.7 times more powerful, several powers that don't have any +def now had it back then.
/em pops 2 purples. Zergs. Rolls a /sr scrapper. Zergs...
Or in other words, I don't really see how exactly those changes would've made defence buffs less overpower back then than they're now. On the contrary, from the sound of it, +defence was even more of a broken must-have buff back then. And one easier to get too.
But the missions no longer reward alternate strategies. Even the old missions are no longer challenging enough to bother figuring out strategies for, because stamina-inherent veteran-power equipped characters are overpowered compared to the old content.
The game used to support both of our playstyles -- my thinking, and your button-mashing. It no longer supports mine. That's the root of the problem.
I am one of the the most strategic thinking players that likely plays this game. I've been examining the strategic and tactical options of the game since about the very beginning. I was involved in inventing tactics for Hamidon (both versions), LRSF (in beta) and I still find myself helping leaders devise strategies for newer advanced content (like the incarnate trials). To the extent the game has no strategic options, it never had them. To the extent it had them, it still has them now. If you believe the game no longer supports tactical thinking, its because your standards have changed, not the game's standards.
Incidentally, while its easy to get jaded and think its the game that has deteriorated, the fact of the matter is most players do not know all the tricks an experienced player knows. A couple months ago I was on an LRSF that had inexperienced players on it, and they didn't know how to deal with Ghost Widow's PBAoE heal. That problem always had a trivial solution to it: if you're melee, pop lucks. Problem solved. Yeah, when you think up something like that yourself the first time, its easy to believe in your own tactical genius and appreciate the game commensurately for engaging it. But that's a tactic I've been using since 2004; it isn't hard or complex or even especially interesting. Unless you personally struggle to come up with it yourself.
Same with Nosferatu, and same with figuring out to immobilize Nightstar or surround her to minimize her ability to pick directions to run in. What people will *claim* is trivial or not is one thing. But whether the game has deteriorated in the options it provides is another, and it hasn't.
Now as to things like blappers no longer being viable options because of inherent stamina and inventions, I'm not even sure where to begin contradicting that one. But I can say I was a blapper from I3 to I19, and only switched to a ranged build recently for variety. I was otherwise functioning perfectly fine as a blapper: in fact my first experiences with the newest advanced content: Tin Mage, Apex, BAF, and Lambda, were all as a blapper. I have in fact been thinking about making a new alternate blapper build that I could switch back and forth to. I should say *newer* blapper build because I still have the older original one in Build slot 1, and I pop into it occasionally to remind myself how it played (and to think about how to improve it).
In many ways, my Scrapper just became increasingly scrappier, and my Tankers just became more indestructible with inventions and then incarnate powers. But both inventions and incarnate abilities opened a lot of new avenues for my controllers, my blasters, my corruptors, my defenders. There is some unfortunate homogenization inherent in the incarnate powers themselves, but otherwise on the whole I have a lot more options than I did in the past. I have more ways to differentiate characters and builds in useful ways.
And I don't have anything particular to say about the notion that all powersets now basically perform and play the same, except to say that's totally false.
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