The backwards nature of "progression" in this game
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2011-10-25 14:52 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Is that an argument for or against? I'm not sure |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Joining the Justice League showed just how weak Superman was.
|
ps: obligatory Penny Arcade link
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
This is a complaint as old as the game (but before instead of Incarnate Trials, it was TFs that made people feel weak), so obviously there is something to it.
I wonder if we're more susceptible to this problem because we're supposed to be super heroes. Or do people in Fantasy MMOs complain that it takes 25 people to take out a Dragon or Lich King even at max lvl?
I know I definitely feel weaker in other MMOs, when one minion can take me out. I think the one hero == three minions rule still holds up even on the low end here, so that could be what's creating this expectation of power.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Quote:
It is sad to me that so many people share your point of view nowadays, and establish it as the One Truth that rules and always ruled MMOs.|
In the end, how I see things is that it's an MMORPG. That's massively multi-player online role playing game. If you could solo your way through the entire thing, why not just play a console game? |
I've always seen MMOs as worlds, in which you can interact with people of course, but just like in real life you wouldn't force any random stranger on the street to start doing something with you, you wouldn't necessarily be teaming all the time ; and indeed, most early MMOs were about just that, the ability to immerse yourself in a fantasy world populated with people (real people! all over the real world!), and solo-centric in most of the actual mob bashing.
I can think of very few early MMOs where teaming was actually *efficient*, much less required. EverQuest, of course, which was very successful in the NA market, and as the Internet is mostly english...
Fastforward a mere few years and we're now looking at little more than glorified Diablo clones. DPS, DKP, AoE, loot, third-party tools to "optimize" your ingame experience ; and the "multiplayer means forced teaming" trend reducing the already limited options for gameplay even further. The new MMOs are good Diablo clones, but most aren't much more than that.
I don't think I have a point. It's just a pet peeve of mine to see the "MMORPG = multiplayer = forced teaming" equation, when it actually was so far from the truth during the golden age of this genre. Obviously, with millions of subs being a target goal for AAA studios compared to old MMOs being sustainable with a few thousands players, people like the kind of MMOs we have now more than the kind of MMOs we used to have, but it'd be nice if the majority wasn't so adamant to rewrite history and ignore those of us who did like the old way to do things.
Quote:
...you know he still agrees about the solo stuff, right? take the snark down a peg or four
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Because I don't own a console or a TV to play it on?
Oh, wait, no. I see what you mean. Why not play a single player game, right? Of course, how stupid of me, I'll go do just that right now! *edit* Wait, where do I buy the single player version of City of Heroes, again? I couldn't find it in the PlayNC store. |
This is one reason why, my lack of personal time aside, the Incarnate system has been interesting, but not important. There's not much use of level shifting outside of Trials. And without level shifted enemies, the powers you get from Incarnate slots make normal Task Forces a cakewalk (or so I've observed). Basically, the main reason to use the Incarnate system is for the Incarnate Trials, which give you more Incarnate rewards to play more Incarnate trials. For some, that sounds like fun, but outside of the repetitive cycle (IMPO), it doesn't impact the rest of the game much, except for perhaps PvP.
Massively multiplayer means to me that I have a few global channels full of cool people to chat to whilst I solo, and if I'm in the mood I can team up WHEN I WANT TO, as a bonus. Forced teaming can go force off.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
Quote:
Every time this argument is presented it is soundly rebuked by numerous sensible responses. Such responses are already starting to pile up in this thread. And yet it Just.Won't.Die.|
Originally Posted by Rapthorne
In the end, how I see things is that it's an MMORPG.
That's massively multi-player online role playing game. If you could solo your way through the entire thing, why not just play a console game? |
Although to Rapthorne's credit, at least he or she added the following bit. That's a lot more reasonable than most of the posts you see this particular presumption trotted out in.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Rapthorne
Though I will agree, having less of a pure focus on huge multi-player interaction and more paths the soloer can take would be nice. (especially for those times when you can't for whatever reason find a party to do something worthwhile)
|
Quote:
I'm not playing this game because it's an MMO, I'm playing it because it's a decent create-a-superhero-action-RPG. If I had a single player/XBOX 360 option for such game I might not be here. Indeed, a lot of the things I dislike about the game are directly or indirectly linked to the fact that it's an MMO.
|
Originally Posted by Rapthorne
In the end, how I see things is that it's an MMORPG.
That's massively multi-player online role playing game. If you could solo your way through the entire thing, why not just play a console game? |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
Yes, I'm aware, but this argument - especially phrased like this - needs to stop being made. Even if you proceeded to support solo options, you started out with supporting one of the WORST arguments about MMOs ever made.|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
...you know he still agrees about the solo stuff, right?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
I wonder if we're more susceptible to this problem because we're supposed to be super heroes. Or do people in Fantasy MMOs complain that it takes 25 people to take out a Dragon or Lich King even at max lvl?
|
Granted, not ALL fantasy MMOs are like this, but to my eyes, most of them are less about honour and glory, adventure and action and more about being a medieval simulator if Medieval Europe had dragons living in it. They don't let you be THE hero, just a face in the crowd even when you're by yourself.
Comic books in general and City of Heroes in particular are different. Even if you take large-ish groups like the Avengers and the Justice League, they're still comprised of accomplished heroes in their own right that we wouldn't mind seeing as the stars of their own books. Many super heroes are cool because of who they are and what they can do, as opposed to because of the world they exist in.
To give you an apt comparison, playing City of Heroes is like playing as Batman patrolling the streets of Gotham City, occasionally having to team up with Superman and Captain Marvel to take out a descended god. Playing your typical fantasy MMO is like playing a beat cop patrolling the streets of Gotham City, occasionally called upon to serve riot duty during a named villain's rampage, and probably getting your spine backhanded in half because you got too close.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
I've never felt this way ever. Or are you just being sardonic, NT?|
Originally Posted by NuclearToast
It's ironical. The more powerful we get, the weaker we seem to be...
--NT |
I don't agree, from my own experience in game, with the gist of this thread.
Quote:
Woah. Dude! |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I'm not playing this game because it's an MMO, I'm playing it because it's a decent create-a-superhero-action-RPG. If I had a single player/XBOX 360 option for such game I might not be here. Indeed, a lot of the things I dislike about the game are directly or indirectly linked to the fact that it's an MMO.
|
Realising I play the game for the same reason Tenzhi does reminds me of something I've been meaning to say for a while. Every so often, people describe this or that piece of content as "epic" and we get to argue what "epic" means, and whether it's like the epics of old talking about large-scale warfare or whether it's some kind of 90s jargon. So let me swap to something that IS 90s jargon: "Awesome."
Forget "epic." I don't want my game to be "epic." That's not a concern. What I want my game to be is awesome, both as an adjective and a noun. What's awesome is obviously subjective, but to me it's being able to accomplish something I'm not supposed to be able to do. The bad guy drops a building on me, I just walk out of the rubble. The bad guy sends his armies against me, but I fight a whole war by myself. The bad guy sends me to the dimension of no return, I fight my way back. Because I'm awesome. I want my game to be awesome. I want my character to be awesome. That's just as far as that goes.
Epic I can take or leave. It's not important. Awesome is where it's at.
*edit*
Where's 90s Kid when you need him?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
While my Dark Defender may not be able to solo the Avatar of Hamidon, he can solo a double spawn of Preatorian EBs... so, yeah, I feel more powerful.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
Quote:
Batman stops a mugging. Batman & Nightwing bring down a gang. The JLU stops an invasion from Apokalypse. Tougher challenges require assistance.
|
Originally Posted by Adelie
I have long disliked how the more you progress in this game the more you need to team up with others to accomplish your goals. The more powerful I'm told I am, the weaker I feel.
It has been this way ever since I first joined this game way back in i1 or i2 (i forget which). The low level TFs like Positron only required a handful of players. The higher you got in level, and the more you "progressed" the more people were needed for each TF. All of the high level TFs required 8 people if I recall correctly. When City of Villians came out it continued this trend. Now that Incarnate stuff has come out it magnified this even more so. I am told that I have drawn uber power from the well of furies and I'm some kind of super super super hero now, and yet to accomplish anything important, like beating up that Maelstrom guy I beat already a number of times since level 20, I need the help of a bunch of other super heroes. And when I say a bunch, I just don't mean teaming up with a handful of others, I mean a whole lot of them. The more I progress in level and power, and the more Powerful the game tells me I am, the weaker I feel. I wind up feeling like a useless cog in a giant machine, instead of somebody truly remarkable. This is so backwards. |
@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
Quote:
But why do they have to? You say that like it's an obvious fact, but it's only that way because some writers chose to write it that way. What's wrong with making our characters awesome enough to bring down a gang AND Misspelled Apocalypse in the same day?
|
Originally Posted by bpphantom
Batman stops a mugging. Batman & Nightwing bring down a gang. The JLU stops an invasion from Apokalypse. Tougher challenges require assistance.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Because in an MMO, there'll always be some content that's designed for groups - and it needs to present a threat that's too big for a single player to take on.
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
But why do they have to? You say that like it's an obvious fact, but it's only that way because some writers chose to write it that way. What's wrong with making our characters awesome enough to bring down a gang AND Misspelled Apocalypse in the same day?
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Actually, in the context of the JLU it's spelled Apokalips. A place not an event.
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
AND Misspelled Apocalypse in the same day?
|
Quote:
Let the record show that Samuel_Tow wants to be Barney Stinson |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Epic I can take or leave. It's not important. Awesome is where it's at.
|
As for the OP, I agree to a point. By the time my character hits 50, he/she should be feeling damn powerful, and even more so if I choose to invest in IO Sets and the Incarnate System. And I agree that "powerful" should be in relation to what can be conquered. I feel, as you say, "awesome" when I am running through Maria Jenkins' arc solo and defeating all of the Praetorian AVs. And no matter where I am in the city, if I am flying through and see one of those NPC civilian chat bubbles pop up, calling for help, I will quickly detour and dispatch the villains because I play this game to be a hero of the city/world. Because being able to don a kick-*** outfit, fly through rows of skyscrapers, and wield superhuman abilities to save the world is enough for me.
However, that is not enough to keep the majority of the playerbase around, nor is simply "being awesome." Sure, everyone playing this game is doing so because, on some level, they love the genre and/or want to be a superhero (or villain...) themselves. But what keeps them around is the challenge; the fact that there is always something to be achieved, whether it is a badge, a power, an enhancement, or something else entirely. If a player could log into the game for the first time and immediately contend with Archvillains, they would probably play the game until they defeated all of the archvillains in multiple ways, and then would grow bored with it because there was little left to achieve, to offer them a challenge. If everyone was content with being able to conquer everything easily, the Devs would never have to design another piece of content; players would be content to run around and one-shot everything in Atlas Park.
The fact is that this is a game, and in order to keep people interested, the highest degree of difficulty has to be just above what we as a player can easily achieve. We can graze it, hit with certain outlier scenarios/characters, but never achieve it on a global scale. Impossible obstacles are just frustrating. But obstacles that are simply improbable are the most enthralling things for humans, especially gamers. For gamers playing an MMO, there needs to be a large multi-player aspect to it, since that is the foundation of the industry.
In summary, I feel most powerful when soloing my blasters, because I know it is me who is accomplishing all of the tasks, and therefore achieving the most. For that reason, I thoroughly hope that a viable small-teams method of Incarnate progression is in the not-too-distant future. But I think we should continue to expect the Devs to design content for large groups first (but not only) because that is where the highest amount of challenge lies.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
Quote:
'nuff said.
|
Originally Posted by bpphantom
Batman stops a mugging. Batman brings down a gang. Batman stops an invasion from Apokalypse.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
English does not borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and rifles through their pockets for loose grammar.
|
Quote:
So.... Batman needs nerfed?
|
Originally Posted by ZephyrWind
'nuff said.
|
Quote:
I really wish you would quit pretending to be a dev.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
You'd better go buy a razor
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
English does not borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and rifles through their pockets for loose grammar.
|
Quote:
I'm not - I just use female intuition |
Originally Posted by ZephyrWind
I really wish you would quit pretending to be a dev.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Nerf female intuition!
I totally get the OP and can agree with it, but I also don't think this is purely a case of YES and NO/ON and OFF.
We have elements in this game that cater to both/all sides (minus the Incarnate System, I suppose! ...For now...).
Some of us are going to feel like the scales tip one way or the other a bit too much for their liking. Just a matter of personal preferences.
I doubt anyone in favor of some greater solo options - new, specific content for your level 50 to do, that could be done all on their own, that makes them feel like a high-powered level of super hero - is against even greater threats that require teams and/or multiple teams.
I think the opinion is that they'd like a little less of the special content to be team-based and a few soloist options, just like most comicbook arcs are about that powerful character doing it alone.
I, honestly, enjoy myself a ton on my level 50s, playing solo. I'm weird... I enjoy running radio missions, tip missions and street sweeping just for the fun of it!
So long as I can do that, I'm having a blast.
I also like teaming and all that too, but the core of my play is hopping on for 30-60 minutes and doing a bit of that, towards the end of my day.
FUN!
And my character feels pretty powerful.
What's my point?
I currently have a beard and am not putting it on the line for any bets... Although, I may be shaving it any day now (Have to do some public appearances that I think may work better without it...).
Ummm... Where am I? What was this thread about?
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Quote:
It's an inherent power that's a key part of the mechanics of the MMO of life - it can't be changed |
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Nerf female intuition!
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
I know, I know. I just hate the practice of intentionally misspelling names, even when famous comic books are doing it.
|
Originally Posted by Baler
Actually, in the context of the JLU it's spelled Apokalips. A place not an event.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Joining the Justice League showed just how weak Superman was.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides