The Walking Dead

They actually had the statistic on the Talking Dead show. If I remember it's 1000 accidental shootings per year in the US and Canada.

I bet that number spikes like crazy at the beginning of a zombie apocalypse and then drops off substantially.

And let's not forget there is a reason ANYONE walking in the woords during deer season (hunting or not) is required by law in most states to be wearing a blaze orange vest, hat or jacket. Before that became universal, hunting accidents were far more common.

In this specific case, the boy is wearing low visability clothing, including a brown jacket and a camo t-shirt. Add in some distance, the large animal between them and the fact that there's few people left at all and an acidental shooting while hunting is dound to happen sooner or later. Whie I agree that the "blowthrough" thing is a bit hard to swallow, I can let it go from a dramatic point of view.

He was wearing reddish-brown overshirt + blue jeans in an area that was majority green. He was also sporting pale, pasty skin in an open area with sunlight shining on him. The camo t-shirt was not very visible.

None of that screams low visibility.

And yes, Carl gets shot in the comics. His shooting there is much more forgivable given that Otis thought (apparently) that they were zombies and there was no deer.

I just watched it.

Otis says it went "clean through the deer". Herschel says that probably saved Carl's life because it slowed the bullet down. He also says, "But it did not go through clean [meaning that it was broken up on its passage through the deer]. It broke up into pieces.".

I think, this is a combination of things.

First, admittedly it presents a setting involving one of the classic monsters at a time when that spectrum of entertainment is at its peak. Second, the main arc of the story is compelling. Third, for those that haven't read the comic it has taken a lot of people by surprise. Fourth, while the overall quality of the script, direction, or acting have not been of uniform quality... the moments when the show hits it are of particularly high caliber. Those vignettes are keeping the program hung together for me.

When I was in college (oh, so many moons ago) there was a legal case brought against a hunter that shot a woman in her own back yard hanging out the laundry to dry. He was cleared off all charges, primarily because she should have known better to be out in a colorful dress hanging sheets and towels during hunting season.

I do not think there is any stretch, at all, in the scenario presented in the episode.

Unless they're going to go down the "Carol is/will go completely bonkers" route like the comic, I don't think Sophia will eat it.

That being said, I don't think she'll appear for another few episode.

I thought that was the point I was trying to make here.

In all seriousness it's still very easy for me to envision a scenario where a boy standing behind a buck in the tricky lighting of the woods could have gone unnoticed by Otis. I just don't buy that Otis should -not- have been able to make that mistake. *shrugs*

So we have Otis saying it both did and didn't go "clean through" the deer. Which is it? And if he did actually say the phrase "but it did not go through clean" then you're just ASSUMING that meant the bullet broke up. That could just as easily mean it got deflected by a bone and came out an exit angle that differed from the entry angle.

Believe me if I'm having a hard enough time accepting that the doctor knew -exactly- how many pieces the bullet broke into I'm going to have even a harder time believing that Otis knew for sure that his bullet, the moment it hit the deer, broke apart or not. Face it - the idea that the doctor could know there were exactly 6 pieces of lead in the kid without an X-ray or more digging deep in the kid (which he specifically said he would not do unless Carl was sedated) is just silly from the get-go. The writers would have just done better to have the Doc say something like, "I think the bullet broke into several pieces" instead of trying to come up with an exact number of pieces he kept stating as a hard fact.

If the bullet broke up in the deer, it would have hit the kid as a spray, something like a mini-shotgun spread. The doctor might just be counting the number of entry wounds.

I believe it was the doctor that said it didn't go clean through. When Dark One said "he also says", "he" is referring to Herschel.

Uh, no. Comparing the amount of coverage of the camo t-shirt, which was mostly covered hence not very visible, versus the amount of coverage of the reddish-brown shirt and very visible blue jeans.

Tricky lighting? The boy was standing in direct sunlight at one point. It's not like it was twilight with shadows playing tricks.

It was not Otis saying that it didn't go through clean. Otis thought it went through clean. Herschel, the doctor, is the one saying it didn't go through clean.

Read it through again. I mention Otis, then Herschel, then state He. Why are you thinking "He" references Otis, rather than the most recent name?

And if the doctor is examining the boy and sees multiple entry wounds, it's a fair bet that the bullet didn't go through the deer clean. If there's six entry wounds, then there's at least six bullet fragments. It's not rocket science.

You're not having a hard time. You're flat out denying anything of the sort.

Sweet.

Alright I guess I WILL have to rewatch this part of episode tonight.

Even if the doctor was counting 6 wounds (which I still do -not- think was the case) he still has absolutely no idea if the bullet broke up even MORE inside Carl. If there were 6 bits coming out of the deer there might be 20 bits of lead in Carl by the time it all stopped.

Bottomline the Doctor still has absolutely NO idea what's going on inside Carl without an X-ray or exploratory surgery. The idea the he kept stressing EXACTLY 6 pieces like it was an undeniable fact was, and continues to be, incredibly silly to me.

I'm just going to have to assume you have not spent very much time out in the woods. At the very least our ideas about how obscured people can be regardless of clothing or lighting seems to be at an impasse...

He said, "I count six fragments." in the same discussion that he says it didn't go through clean. He's basing that off of, presumably, the number of entry wounds. You're the one stressing six. The doc pulled out the shallowest of the ones. That's why he wanted them to go get the equipment so he could cut Carl open and find out exactly what happened.

If Otis was using a lead bullet, those things mushroom on impact with soft tissue. It could easily have broken up on the way out. A full metal jacketed round would simply have passed through the deer.

Considering that I've been hunting since I was sixteen and shooting for a couple years prior to that?

Saying the kid was obscured when he clearly wasn't is a bit of a stretch. The only way Otis could've legitimately missed seeing Carl was if he was in a hurry and not taking the time to do what good hunters do.

Again, one more time, I find it incredibly silly that the Doc would assume, in the case of a bullet that he supposedly knows can break up upon impact, that 6 holes (if there were even 6 holes) equals exactly six pieces. My point, ALL ALONG, is that he doesn't really know how many pieces he's dealing with regardless of entry wounds. How can he possibly COUNT six total fragments when he didn't even want to dig deep enough into him without the ventilator?

I'm quibbling over the use of the word SIX in this scene. The doctor is basically guessing at that so why even use a NUMBER in the conversation to begin with?

Then you really should know better than to assume this could -not- have happened. You apparently should know that even better than I. *shrugs*

And who's to say he wasn't? That's my point - there are many, many different rationales you can use to easily explain how the scenario we saw could have happened.

If anything, I'd think Jenner would be telling Rick that Lori was pregnant. Being a doctor, Jenner would probably feel that Rick has the right to know if Lori is pregnant, but I'd doubt that he'd tell Rick if Andrea is pregnant.

My other guess would be that Jenner told Rick that they are all infected, which could be stunning news. Of course, he could have been telling Rick some stock tips, and that was why Rick had the weird look on his face.

Earlier in the thread I talked about doubting the "Jenner Secret" was that Andrea was pregnant. But I must admit if the secret was that Lori was pregnant then that would put a whole different spin on the matter. Somehow I think if that was the secret Rick would have had it out with Lori by now. I don't think he could have held that back from her (and indirectly the audience) for this long. But I guess stranger things could happen.

I'm pretty much assuming the secret was more along the lines of "Everyone is infected" until I see otherwise.

I'd watch.

They never show the angle of the shot or the path from Otis' POV. And mooey big bad hunter or not, i'd probably be in a hurry if i was hunting in a forest ...full of firckin' zombies.

If you have a number of entry wounds, you can make the assumption that there is at least that many fragments. You give the relatives an idea of what you are going up against and the confidence that you can manage. You don't say, "Hell, I don't know what's going on. There could be eight bajillion pieces in him.". The idea is to calm the parents/relatives/bystanders.

Making Rick extra nervous and on edge by saying there could potentially be 20 pieces or whatever in him, when you don't know if there are more than the entry wounds, is not going to help matters in the slightest. You state what you can with a degree of certainty.

It's not a matter of guessing that a bullet can break up, it's a matter of knowing that bullets do in fact break up. Lead bullets mushroom upon impact with soft tissue. It's what they are designed to do to maximize damage to the target. Now, that bullet goes through a rib? Hell ya, there's a good chance that thing broke up on exit.

I never said it couldn't. Hunting accidents happen all the time. What I find issue with is the setup for the accident in this case.

Had the show stuck to the comic, I wouldn't have any quibble with Carl getting shot by Otis because it would make sense.

And there's other rationales that says it's an idiot setup to get Carl to the farm. A set up that didn't really add anything substantial to the show.

The very most basic thing that it ignores is the fact that wild deer will not generally allow people to get that close to them, especially when the deer is staring right at you and you continue to close with them. I can't even get that close to deer that come up into my yard to eat my grapes and apples. I can get maybe 50 feet from them before they bolt.

The bullet comes out of the deer's chest and hits Carl straight on in the side. It wasn't a glancing impact and didn't appear to enter at an angle. Ergo, Otis presumably fired at a right angle to the deer.

Now, it could've bounced inside the deer and ricocheted out. That's a possiblity. But if you're shooting at an oblique angle, say Otis shooting from behind and to the left (of the deer's facing), you stand a decent chance of hitting the intestines and stomach, rather than a shot that'll drop the deer in its tracks. Hitting that will spill those contents into the deer's carcass. Carl could've been hidden by that bush to his left. However, that shot was placed good enough to drop the deer in its tracks.

I've never argued whether bullets can break up on impact or not. You don't have to be a hunter to know that. I've simply been arguing the points of WHEN the bullet broke up and HOW the heck the Doctor would know he's only dealing with 6 pieces. I seriously doubt the Doctor would, in the effort of "comforting" Rick, bother to tell him an exact number of something like that when he really doesn't know the number fragments he's dealing with. Doctors don't "comfort" using exact numbers unless they are pretty damn sure about those numbers.

It was always pretty clear to me that the shot came straight through the buck's chest. Even I the "non-hunter" know that's where you want to hit a deer to drop him. Therefore it was very clear that the full body of the buck was completely in-between Otis and Carl. Add to that a little underbrush (that would better obscure Carl's legs) and the fact that it looked like Otis was shooting at least a few degrees from above the deer up on a bit of a hillside add together for all the reasonable ingredients for Otis to realistically NOT see Carl standing there.

One more time I've already agreed that Carl being able to stand a few feet from a wild buck was completely unbelievable. I'm not even arguing that point. But given that we are to believe Carl was in fact just a few feet behind the buck makes it even more likely that its relatively big body obscured Carl from Otis.

/headdesk

Are you purposely trying to be obtuse and arguing for the sake of arguing?

He has a fair idea of what he is expecting based on the evidence presented to him. He is planning for the possibility of more than that, but expects at least that many. He is getting the equipment so that he can cut Carl open and root around in there. If he finds more, he'll deal with it.

Once again, YOU are the one stressing that six is the exact number. Herschel said that six is what he counted. Not that there is only six. Just that he counted six.

There was no underbrush around Carl's legs. He was in a semi-clearing. There was a bush to his left. If Otis was on top of a hill, then that is even less of an argument for him not seeing Carl. Even more so when you consider that there were two additional people behind Carl, one of which was wearing a bright shiny cop badge.

The deer saw Carl. If Otis had been paying attention, he would've seen that something attracted the deer's attention. Pan up a little and try to see what caused the deer to turn his head. As some are saying, that he would've been in a hurry since he's in a forest of the undead, it would make even less sense to not see if the deer is starting to get spooked by a walker. Since even if Otis would've shot the deer, he wouldn't have been able to get it gutted and carried out.

What good hunters do when they aren't hunting after the zombie apocalypse, you mean?