Are we overreacting with T5s?

I am seeing a lot of posts on the new T5s decrying them as a waste of space ... not worth wasting powers on... worst for min-maxing.... and on and on and on today.

It sets me to thinking a bit about what they really are.

Afterburner grants a flight cap boost, reasonably high defensive boosts, flight debuff protection... and then slaps an affect self only onto you. ouch....

But let's take a look at the benefits here. You can travel faster between missions. Flight based players are now going to be able to buff this with defense enh and hey, suddenly they've got an extra 20% defenses. This can help with tanker stealthing perhaps. It's big drawback is this is not a combat time power. It's a getaway power, like any form of phase shift. This seems somehat reasonable to me, especially if you think about it in terms of tossing in a gift of the ancient or LotG proc into it. This makes it at the worst a good mule power.

Burnout gives an instant recharge of all primary/secondary powers. Sorry pool,epic, and incarnate powers, no love for joo. Big drawback though, 30 minute recharge. That's gonna hinder it. that high end cost is another big nasty...

Let's look at your toon now.

Are you having such serious end problems that you are fighting to keep your end up all the time? Some characters do. Ill/storm is insane for needing careful end control and lots of melee are running 6, 7+ toggles! You've probably built in recovery control on that though. Your attacks are not going to be taking out as much of your end bar, and you probably have set it up to increase fast enough to not be fighting running out of endurance. I personally try for a minimum 2.0 end/sec increase above the cost of all toggles. I will have the end to spare for big cost powers. Toss on a cardiac incarnate if all else fails. you will have the end.

As for it's recharge.... well, although the power can not take end redux, it can take recharge redux. So toss in two recharge redux. that's an investment of 1 slot. Using Mids (cause I refuse to respec over and over just to confirm the in game numbers), this cuts it's recharge down to 16 minutes, 20 seconds. That's at 0% global recharge. Most of the min max players are using more than that. From personal experience, I know that a toon over 180% global recharge will be having this recharge every 7-8 minutes. This is not an insane time, even at 16 minutes. Tanks/Brutes? double that t9's active time! Blasters, nuke twice in a row. Controllers? Fenders? You have powrs that take a freaking long time to recharge. It is very helpful. I personally will say that with 220%+ global recharge I don't need that kind of speed boost on my primary/secondaries. but most toons aren't going to such extremes. This is a bring up my uberness button.

Spring Attack... what can be said that hasn't. It's a respectable AoE attack for a pool power. It's knockdown can stall enemies while your auras take effect, or while you use an interruptable power, such as aid self. I like it on my shield/elec tank as a finishing teleport AoE. It matches up with the lightning rod and shield charge well enough for effect, even if the base damage is considerably less. Let's be honest though, any power you take that you don't give enhancement love to is pretty gimped. If you want an AoE, make sure you justify the acquisition. This is true for any power, not just a pool power.

Long Range Teleport is probably what I would say the least useful for me, but that is because my SG has all blue zones available. I have PD VIP pass... Mission TP.... Oroboros.... SG porter.... what need have I for ANOTHER method of getting around? Well, I don't.

Freems, preems, people that didn't pay for expansion pacs prolly do. This is a great option. Characters in New SGs that lack coalitions can prolly find this to be a great travel time saver. I'll prolly never take this, but there are tons that this is gonna save a fortune for, irl. I think it was kind of the Devs to make this available.

Now, if this also works when you are on a vigilante, in the rogue isles and it sends you to ferries... I would call this truly useful. Especially for the habitual TF players in the game. How many of us have whined I'm a rogue! when the entire team has gone from Portal corps to IP in the STF. We know that that team isn't going to wait while we travel. But hey, zone tp! all there. Yay! May have to test that some day.

My final thoughts on this (for now) involve wasting the power selections...

"OMG! I have to take two powers to get these! I'm wasting my space!!!!"

What a load of...

Let's be serious for a moment. How many of us already have Hasten and Superspeed on our toon? What about Combat Jumping and SuperJump? Hover and Fy? Recall Friend and Teleport? If you took CJ, Hover, Hasten, or Recall, odds are pretty darned good you took a travel power that matches up with it. You aren't wasting your space. You have your two base powers already.

Conversely, you took advantage of taking your Travel power without the lesser tiered powers.... really? Is it a big sacrifice to use that 1 extra power slot for the t5 you can find useful? The tier 1 and tier 2 powers are useful too. You WILL use them.

When all else is said and done, you have practical uses that double up with your travel powers you may already have...

• Recharge on any toon: Hover 1 slot (lotg proc) Fly, Afterburner (lotg proc) 1 slot
• Granite tank: Jump Kick, Superjump, Spring attack. Jump around that combat without using the teleport pool. you're keeping up with the action, no SB.
• Invuln defense: Hasten, superspeed, burnout... 'omg, unstoppable is about to crash. Let's renew it before it has the chance!'

-Michael: Ill/Storm Troller <><><><><><> Slide-Show Base-Tour: Its a London Thing

I did forget that Afterburn takes defense IOs. So It might be worth taking in some instances.

The biggest "LOL" for me on the T5's is Afterburner.

Believe i said it on the Beta forums as well...

For YEARS...people would knock, piss, and moan about how fly was so ssllooww. "Why would you pick fly as a travel power over something like super speed or super jump, unless it's for concept? It's so slow it's pitiful!" and other such comments were all too common on the boards.

The devs did numerous tweaks over the years with hover and fly, such as boosting the base flight speed, bringing us closer to the cap, until eventually, you could hit the flight speed cap with little to no slotting needed. But of course..."its still too slow".

Finally, we were granted T5's for travel pools, and fly got Afterburner. A boost to flight speed that goes BEYOND the normal cap. And, with a smidge of slotting (i believe i've read that 2 flight speeds in both fly and afterburner gets you ~80-ish mph...which i just now checked with Mids...and listed like 84.9 mph).

Here comes the kicker. After the initial joy-gasm subsided..."It's not worth it...it's too slow" comments started cropping up all over the place.

I said it then...I'll say it now.

Hello, Square One.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe ::looks at RaikenX's signature:: Something funny.

My two most-played 50s both have a travel t5 now, one has Spring Attack and the other Afterburner. I'm thoroughly pleased with both powers.

Given that many players have a long-standing opinion that travel powers aren't worth it in the first place, it shouldn't be surprising that some people think spending yet another power in a travel pool still isn't worthwhile. The real question is, are the people who dislike the t5s the same people who asked for them?

The issue with Fly specifically is not that it is a bad power on its own, but that you can replicate it using a very available temp power that lasts a very long time and is close to as good. Because of this you can enjoy all the benefits of Super Speed most of the time (which does not have a temp power that can replace it) and use the jet pack for short bursts. Super Speed is so much better than the other 3 travel powers that it's really kind of silly, mostly due to the ability to turn invisible when combined with Stealth IOs.

I actually have Super Jump and SS on one character (SJ as a pre-req for Spring Attack) and took Super Jump off my action bar entirely because with a jetpack it is worthless. The power even detoggles Combat Jumping, which is just obnoxious since I can run around super speeding invisibly and leaping off ledges with the jet pack without that happening, but I lose immobilize protection if I actually try to jump far--just silly.

The only problem I have with afterburner is that you spend three power picks and multiple enhancement slots just to get the same speed that SS, SJ or even teleport have with just one power pick and no enhancements beyond the default slot. And not even that, but in the same patch it's added there's a buyable power that comes with that built in. (Seriously, have a look - the rocket board has the same flight speed increase as unenhanced afterburner.)

It just seems a bit silly to me, why couldn't they just have made basic flight be faster to start with rather than having to take a whole extra power for it? Then we could've gotten a tier 5 power that's useful as more than just a mule for another LotG global.

Afterburner: I might actually take this on some of my fliers, but I rarely have spare power picks. I could just take it as an LotG filler (which I do sometimes already), but the power itself isn't that strong with no +fly in it at all.

Burnout: The drawbacks and limits are too much. There really aren't enough primary/secondary powers that would benefit from a one-time instant recharge to make me want to take another power out of this pool (I already always take Hasten, but not SS).

Spring Attack: I don't have the power picks or slots to make this worthwhile. I fiddled with it on beta with a Controller and it was okay for getting me in range for PBAoE debuffs. I also thought about taking it on my BS/Shield. But it just wasn't worth it.

Long Range Teleport: I never take any teleport powers and I already have a dozen ways to get to other zones.

For the record, the only travel powers I use are Fly, Ninja Run, and Beast Run. I never take SS, SJ, or Teleport. But I do have Hasten and CJ on most characters. For everything but Afterburner, I would have a minimum of two power investment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Let's run through the list here.

Afterburner: If you absolutely need to get to the next objective just that much faster and have the slots to spare, then by all means, go for it. But there's no tactical advantage in taking it and I personally would rather take something that can benefit me more in combat.

Burnout: outside of T9 powers, the only ones with a cool down that can benefit from this is the pool, epic and incarnate powers. It's a rare situation where I must have another activation right at that moment once every 30 mins.

Spring attack: Probably the most useful of the bunch, but if I recall correctly, the Judgement slot does the same with much more punch and a lower cool down. If you have absolutely no AoE then it is useful, but the only At I can think of without one is the stalker and that because such a power is detrimental to the play style.

Long Range Teleport: Not a bad power really, but situational at best. The only time I can see it as useful is if you are far away from any means of accessing other transport hubs. For areas like Talos, Independence Port, or Nerva it has it's uses. But most others just not worth the effort unless you're in a race.

Finally, your two slot complaint being garbage, no it's not. The examples you gave a are very specific and don't really help outside of them. The whole concept of the game is to build how you want within reason. To have a sacrifice of two slots with the claim that you will use them in only very limited amounts goes against that whole idea.

The T5 travel powers are interesting, but only marginally useful and the only reason I can think of taking them is if you already meed the requirements and have an open slot.

After reading all the replies, I am seeing that the following opinions are what holds:

Afterburner: 'How dare they make a non combat power!'

As I said, it's good for a mule if you need the space, and has a large enough def bonus to substitue for a phase shift as a quick getaway. Good for some, not others.

Burnout: 'Recharge is too long'

Burnout.... 1 enhancement slot (auto)... 1 recharge redux... poof, 20 minute recharge. Just don't get it if you don't need it. I certainly don't.

Spring attack: 'not enough damage'

Total agreement. But a nice frill for martial arts, SJ, shield Charge, ice trollers, etc....

Zone tp: 'nothing wrong except I can't use it'

Agreed.

This sticks out to me though

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordLundar Finally, your two slot complaint being garbage, no it's not. The examples you gave a are very specific and don't really help outside of them. The whole concept of the game is to build how you want within reason. To have a sacrifice of two slots with the claim that you will use them in only very limited amounts goes against that whole idea.

Would you really feel any better if I went AT by AT, and build by build for every single AT in the game and worked out a way for it to be useful in at least 10 different situations? I'm sure I can if I put my mind to it. As it is, I threw out what were the most obvious ideas at the moment to me.

But as you said, the whole concept is to build however you want. So, feel free to choose to ignore the well meant statement that complaining about needing two powers that so many players already have is garbage and continue to feel it's a waste of time. I hope it helps you build the best.

My overall opinion is gonna stand here. I think we are mostly overreacting with the 'they bite' comments. The truth is 'They are nice, but don't really fit in my build atm.'

-Michael: Ill/Storm Troller <><><><><><> Slide-Show Base-Tour: Its a London Thing

Surprisingly enough, the only t5 I suggest to people is Spring Attack, even though I acknowledge it could be a little better (Shield Charge's strength or its base recharge time). For PBAoE characters (squishies in particular) it is a great opener, since it puts everyone on their backs. For ST-based characters it is some AoE. For Shielders of any kind, it is actually not bad damage when boosted by Against All Odds.

Between all the special teleports, the temporary travel powers, Ninja/Beast Run and the Hoverboard, I have not taken an actual travel power in quite a long time except for concept. Combat Jumping, Hasten and Hover are popular, but it would not surprise me if more players than you think would actually have to make room for a travel power and the t5.

I'm totally in line with Sayaki on this one. Outside of PvP, concept is king. It doesn't matter whether a power is perfect numbers-wise, as long as you like the power. The main draw of Afterburner is that it's freaking COOL! With Inherent Fitness now, we could all afford to take a "Cool" power or two.

Hell, I took Spring Attack on my Inv/Stone Tanker because a.) It fits the concept of the character as a highly acrobatic, hard and fast striker and b.) It's just fun! It doesn't matter that my tank already has plenty of control, KD/KB, and AoE attacks. It's cool and I like it. What more reason do you need?

I would also point out, we're apparently getting THREE different builds on each character now, which is great. Why can't people just have a "Fun Build" and relax?

Many players enjoy performing precise statistical measurements and calculations to ensure that every build they make is the absolute best it can be, and that's fine by me, so long as they enjoy what they're doing. I understand that in their opinion a great many powers, powersets, and even archetypes are anathema, at least as far as their characters are concerned.

What I don't understand is why some feel the need to bash those powers here on the forums, or even worse to bash the players who enjoy said powers in-game. To me, flight has always been a first choice for my super characters, I mean, who doesn't want to be able to fly? I've never dreamed that I could run at mach speed, or leap to and fro over long distances, but I've had plenty of dreams where I could fly.

I like Afterburner. I like beating the Super Speed and Super Jump conformists to the mission door during TF's, it's kind of like payback for all those years when fly really was the slowest travel power. It's certainly not anymore. Sure, you can't attack while using it, but it doesn't detoggle you like rocket board does, and it doesn't cost 600 pts(or whatever it costs), AND you can slot a LoTG +Recharge in it. It's a win-win in my opinion.

Burnout I can see being useful in many situations, as previously stated for doubling t9's especially. I've never taken it, but I'm sure some will swear by it. I just hope they don't trigger the profanity filter when they do.

Spring Jump...never tried it, but I'm sure it's fun and has its uses. Although I do think it's funny to see people defend 3 power picks for a slow recharging power that needs to be fully slotted to do more than slap-boxing damage, while knocking 3 power picks to get Afterburner with zero slots needed. I figure you're probably better off slotting a real attack, unless you're chasing even more AOE, or some occasional mitigation.

Zone Teleport I think will be of great use to free and premium players, or for players who simply don't want to be in an SG, but who still want to get around quickly for TF's.

Hey, Afterburner gives me more uptime on Marauder in Lambda because I can follow him faster when he leaps. That's a straight dps increase ;P

"Are we overreacting with T5s?"

Yes.

I have yet to see anything added to this game that at least a few forum posters have not overreacted to in some way though, so status quo.

Some people like the T5s, some don't. Imagine that.

I have gotten some great use from a couple, don't plan on taking others but I can see some usefulness in all of them.

As has been pointed out, even here, concept and fun trump min/max and performance for a large number of people that play.

I use Zone TP quite a lot especially when tip missions send me all over the Isles. It's recharge is great it's always up when you need it.

I don't see what the big deal is with the powers' 'price' here. Did we not get a whole pool made inherent where previously we had to 'sacrifice' (*snerk*) 3 power picks "Just to not OMGSUXXOR!1"? We'll be having the APPs/PPPs unlocked earlier and I even heard rumors that an extra slot or two may be added at some point...

There is no extraneous price that was never there...In fact, you have *3* powers to *burn* since you must of been a n00b and had to get fitness cause you didn't know what you were doing. Just burn *1* of those three free powers you got and *tada!*...

Or are we forgetting we were given free power picks? Funny how after a bit of time, those little extras are no longer considered 'extras' and only piles onto the entitlement of the player.