Are we overreacting with T5s?
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Afterimage,
Posted on: 2011-10-07 15:44 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
My guess is, if you feel you have to defend your opinion on the worth of these powers, maybe your argument is on uneven terms to begin with. If you don't think these powers are very good that's your opinion and no one (at least I'm not) is saying you're wrong. But that isn't stopping you from jumping to that conclusion? Paranoid, maybe?
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No, I just think what you wrote framed the issue into a guilt trip that just isn't appropriate to the topic.
ADDENDUM: Specifically, the conundrum is that these powers were added because the original 4 powers at the end of the travel pool trees weren't considered very good. If the new powers are only barely more attractive than the old, then the situation hasn't changed. Any arguments about getting three power picks for "free" are moot because that also applied to the existing powers. Acrobatics itself has actually never been a terrible power, but the cost of getting it makes it relatively unpopular.
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Answer: No, this thread is not about these powers being legitimately useful, or about them being neat looking costume powers, it's asking whether or not we are overreacting with T5's. Yes, they are completely different arguments.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Question: is this thread about these powers being legitimately useful, or about the being neat looking costume powers? Because those are completely different arguments.
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There, that was easy.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
And calling Flight and Afterburner out for being enormously disappointing powers is not bashing.
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Without adding the qualifying statement "in my opinion", saying that these powers are "enormously disappointing" is bashing them.
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And here I thought it was because, since vet rewards were being abolished and the day traveler reward removed, the devs wanted to expand those pools to keep a tiered feel as well as improve options.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
ADDENDUM: Specifically, the conundrum is that these powers were added because the original 4 powers at the end of the travel pool trees weren't considered very good. If the new powers are only barely more attractive than the old, then the situation hasn't changed. Any arguments about getting three power picks for "free" are moot because that also applied to the existing powers. Acrobatics itself has actually never been a terrible power, but the cost of getting it makes it relatively unpopular. |
I'd never be under the delusion that any powers the devs add to the game has to be better than the original powers. Different? Yes. Better? Most likely not.
People are overreacting the way the overreact when a new powerset does not blow all the others out of the water, or are at least at the top tier. People whinged about Dual Pistols like it was far too weak, when it was in fact a middle of the road set.
It's the same thing here. I think some of the Tier 5s could use a little tweaking (Burnout maybe has too much of a drawback, Spring Attack's recharge is a bit high), but they are mostly fun/nice powers worth fitting in if you can. Honestly, I would have been upset if these were powers like Stamina used to be, or Tough/Weave for most melee characters. The last thing I need are more powers to choose from that I REALLY need to have.
Fun powers with some worth? Sure.
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Ah, but as a player who hadn't played since before they added Inherent Fitness, it really DOES feel like I'm getting free power picks, at least from my point of view. I've taken powers from pools I've never even touched before because now I have the room to do so. It's very freeing. I took Long Range Teleport on my Elec/Time Controller because it fits his concept of being able to step through time and space and also because it's kinda useful. I picked up the stealth pool on another toon I'd never have considered it on before.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
No, I just think what you wrote framed the issue into a guilt trip that just isn't appropriate to the topic.
ADDENDUM: Specifically, the conundrum is that these powers were added because the original 4 powers at the end of the travel pool trees weren't considered very good. If the new powers are only barely more attractive than the old, then the situation hasn't changed. Any arguments about getting three power picks for "free" are moot because that also applied to the existing powers. Acrobatics itself has actually never been a terrible power, but the cost of getting it makes it relatively unpopular. |
All in all, I'm pretty happy with the new T5's and my "free power picks".
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In all my years of walking the face of the internet, I've never understood why so few people realize that stating "in my opinion" is necessary, especially in regards to something being "disappointing" or not. New rule of thumb: Unless it's a statement regarding actual concrete facts, consider it an opinion.
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Originally Posted by Fugacity
Without adding the qualifying statement "in my opinion", saying that these powers are "enormously disappointing" is bashing them.
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Originally Posted by SuperFerret
In all my years of walking the face of the internet, I've never understood why so few people realize that stating "in my opinion" is necessary, especially in regards to something being "disappointing" or not. New rule of thumb: Unless it's a statement regarding actual concrete facts, consider it an opinion.
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I had to re-read this a few times and am still not sure whether you are saying it is necessary to say or not. Regardless, "IMO" was the very first thing I said in this thread.
IMO, having to include IMO in every single sentence so someone can't quote me arbitrarily is a waste of time, but that's just my opinion.
The only one of the T5's I'm not a fan of is afterburner, but I understand some people like it and thats fine. My views on them are fairly simple.
Afterburner: By taking any travel power, I'm trading combat effectiveness for out of combat speed, and with afterburning I'm now trading two powers for it. True it can slot a LotG +recharge IO, and at least Air Sup and Hover are good powers, but I would have liked something with combat utility. That said, plenty of build take Combat Jumping just for the LotG and this might be a more useful option if you don't need combat jumping for softcap defense. I would like the power to have some combat utility though.
Spring Attack: I like this power, a lot. While true it's damage and recharge are not as good as shield charge or lightning rod, it's a pool power that anyone can take and is available at a fairly low level. It's not worth it for every build, but it is a nice extra attack, which si good because Leaping's other attack sucks. You gotta take combat jumping to take it, which is an okay power choice in most builds.
Long Range Teleport: I got the mission teleporter, base teleporter, pocket D teleporter, ouroborus, and even the wentworth teleporter, so I really don't need it, but for people who don't have all those this power would be great. Furthermore, recall friend and teleport foe are both good powers. I only wish there was a few more zones it could go to. I think not being able to go to hazard zones hurts the power.
Burnout: Hasten and Super Speed are great powers, so prereqs are not a problem. The power has it's uses for sure. Controllers and defenders oftentimes have very powerful long CD powers that can save a team if they can use them in quick succession, and many a tank and scrapper can double up on their steroid ult to be near invincible for sometimes up to 4 minutes straight. Most builds when heavily IO'd out won't need it, but it's a useful leveling power, and also useful for people who don't have IO access.
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While I agree with you that the Raptor Pack can replace Fly in many cases, there are a few circumstances where I really prefer Hover/Fly -- mostly characters who stay out of melee and often fight from the air. This includes some Blasters, Defenders, Corrupters and Controllers. (For characters who use Fly only for travel, however, the Super Speed + Raptor Pack is better in my opinion, especially if you put a Celerity Stealth in Super Speed.)|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The issue with Fly specifically is not that it is a bad power on its own, but that you can replicate it using a very available temp power that lasts a very long time and is close to as good. Because of this you can enjoy all the benefits of Super Speed most of the time (which does not have a temp power that can replace it) and use the jet pack for short bursts. Super Speed is so much better than the other 3 travel powers that it's really kind of silly, mostly due to the ability to turn invisible when combined with Stealth IOs.
I actually have Super Jump and SS on one character (SJ as a pre-req for Spring Attack) and took Super Jump off my action bar entirely because with a jetpack it is worthless. The power even detoggles Combat Jumping, which is just obnoxious since I can run around super speeding invisibly and leaping off ledges with the jet pack without that happening, but I lose immobilize protection if I actually try to jump far--just silly. |
For example, my "signature" Ill/Rad is a ranged character except for those few times he runs in (while invisible) to fire off Flash or EM Pulse. I currently have Hover (great place for a LotG Recharge, but a useful power for fighting from the air) and Fly (I use the Speed-on-Demand binds, which automatically turn on Fly whenever I move, then turn Hover back on when I stop moving). I currently have Group Invis, mostly as a set mule for a LotG Recharge, but I use it once in a while only because I have it. I plan on replacing GI with Afterburner, which will still give me the same place for a LotG but will also let me get to far-off missions faster. Sounds like a big win to me!
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
While I agree with you that the Raptor Pack can replace Fly in many cases, there are a few circumstances where I really prefer Hover/Fly -- mostly characters who stay out of melee and often fight from the air. This includes some Blasters, Defenders, Corrupters and Controllers. (For characters who use Fly only for travel, however, the Super Speed + Raptor Pack is better in my opinion, especially if you put a Celerity Stealth in Super Speed.)
For example, my "signature" Ill/Rad is a ranged character except for those few times he runs in (while invisible) to fire off Flash or EM Pulse. I currently have Hover (great place for a LotG Recharge, but a useful power for fighting from the air) and Fly (I use the Speed-on-Demand binds, which automatically turn on Fly whenever I move, then turn Hover back on when I stop moving). I currently have Group Invis, mostly as a set mule for a LotG Recharge, but I use it once in a while only because I have it. I plan on replacing GI with Afterburner, which will still give me the same place for a LotG but will also let me get to far-off missions faster. Sounds like a big win to me! |
These are some good points. IMO the power is not so awful that no one should ever take it. But also IMO it is quite disappointing to me, for the following reason: Afterburner does nothing without Fly. It is the only example I can think of in the game that specifically requires an optional pre-power pick in order to work. If Afterburner was just a really fast Fly, you could take Hover and Air Superiority as pre-reqs and occasionally fly around really quickly, maybe justifying the recharge and attack limitations on the power. The fact that the power specifically requires you to have Fly means you are roped into a very specific build strategy.
I don't have any issues with wanting to fly around really quickly, but I was hoping the implementation would make the Fly pool a little more conventionally attractive. Fly itself could use flight protection or something else to distinguish it better from the jet pack. Having to take a whole additional power just to do that just strikes me as a mostly bad investment except for costume reasons. Fly (and Super Jump and Teleport) just feel in large need of a buff.
Honestly, I don't see the hate about the new T5s. Afterburner with minimal investment lets you fly as fast as super speed can run. With one extra slot in Afterburner you can almost catch up on a straight line.
This is 3D movement and raw speed. Without the annoyance of accidently jumping into mobs, taking fall damage or having to find the right path to get around something.
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Actually, with IOs involved, Dual Pistols (which I love) seems more lower middle than just middle.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
People are overreacting the way the overreact when a new powerset does not blow all the others out of the water, or are at least at the top tier. People whinged about Dual Pistols like it was far too weak, when it was in fact a middle of the road set.
It's the same thing here. I think some of the Tier 5s could use a little tweaking (Burnout maybe has too much of a drawback, Spring Attack's recharge is a bit high), but they are mostly fun/nice powers worth fitting in if you can. Honestly, I would have been upset if these were powers like Stamina used to be, or Tough/Weave for most melee characters. The last thing I need are more powers to choose from that I REALLY need to have. Fun powers with some worth? Sure. |
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Afterburner, what they may have wanted to do with it to make it seem more attractive to the players is give the +FLY, more Flight Protection, the defense it has, but allow attacking while it's on.|
Originally Posted by TheOOB
The only one of the T5's I'm not a fan of is afterburner, but I understand some people like it and thats fine. My views on them are fairly simple.
Afterburner: By taking any travel power, I'm trading combat effectiveness for out of combat speed, and with afterburning I'm now trading two powers for it. True it can slot a LotG +recharge IO, and at least Air Sup and Hover are good powers, but I would have liked something with combat utility. That said, plenty of build take Combat Jumping just for the LotG and this might be a more useful option if you don't need combat jumping for softcap defense. I would like the power to have some combat utility though. Spring Attack: I like this power, a lot. While true it's damage and recharge are not as good as shield charge or lightning rod, it's a pool power that anyone can take and is available at a fairly low level. It's not worth it for every build, but it is a nice extra attack, which si good because Leaping's other attack sucks. You gotta take combat jumping to take it, which is an okay power choice in most builds. Long Range Teleport: I got the mission teleporter, base teleporter, pocket D teleporter, ouroborus, and even the wentworth teleporter, so I really don't need it, but for people who don't have all those this power would be great. Furthermore, recall friend and teleport foe are both good powers. I only wish there was a few more zones it could go to. I think not being able to go to hazard zones hurts the power. Burnout: Hasten and Super Speed are great powers, so prereqs are not a problem. The power has it's uses for sure. Controllers and defenders oftentimes have very powerful long CD powers that can save a team if they can use them in quick succession, and many a tank and scrapper can double up on their steroid ult to be near invincible for sometimes up to 4 minutes straight. Most builds when heavily IO'd out won't need it, but it's a useful leveling power, and also useful for people who don't have IO access. |
With it's heavy end per second cost and only being able to use it with Hover/Fly, I think this would of been okay, since you need to use two powers at once to get it's benefits.
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Spring Attack, just like you said, it's good enough really. My problem with it, is I don't know if I care for the animation or not
I've yet to get a good look at it to see how it looks when they land. And if it looks terrible (I'm hopign for a one fisted pound to the ground as the character lands) I'm not to sure I want it....
Zone Teleport, I just think it should work for all zones (maybe with the exception of Oro) that the character has access too. This includes Hazard zones, and being able to teleport from blue side to redside (and to ones base/pocket d would be nice too).
Possibly treat it as the ultimate version of a tram/copter...pulls up a list of zones, and some cases two different spots in the zone.
Even with all the means of travel now, this power can still be useful, but I do wish it was a bit more "ALL THAT!"
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Burnout, I know some people who are loving it on their characters with nukes. NUKE -> Pop a Blue Skittle -> Burnout -> NUKE AGAIN!
I think this is more of a player choice power. It has it's uses for some, others might be meh, and that's okay.
Also a nice way to overcome some massive +SLOWS on characters, and MAYBE that's what can be added to it to make it a bit more attactive...some massive +SLOW RESIST for 60 seconds.
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No its not.|
Originally Posted by Fugacity
Without adding the qualifying statement "in my opinion", saying that these powers are "enormously disappointing" is bashing them.
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Having to add IMO to your post in a forum is quite frankly redundant. Perhaps "IMO" should be forced into everyone's signature?
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Originally Posted by Fugacity
Spring Jump...never tried it, but I'm sure it's fun and has its uses. Although I do think it's funny to see people defend 3 power picks for a slow recharging power that needs to be fully slotted to do more than slap-boxing damage, while knocking 3 power picks to get Afterburner with zero slots needed. I figure you're probably better off slotting a real attack, unless you're chasing even more AOE, or some occasional mitigation
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Or even some AOE. Not all builds have a lot of AOE. I am playing a SR/MA tanker at the moment, just 1 PBAOE in the whole thing prior to epic. And it's not a particularly good one either (T8 too, so you don't get it for a long time). The point of a tanker is Agro control. PBAOE are beautiful for generating agro.
So i took spring attack. Love it. It's damage mitigation (Knock Down), Agro generation and damage all in one. The damage isn't wonderful. But its good enough for it's purpose. Besides, propperly slotted and overall io'd for recharge (i mean seriously? SR doesn't need defense IO set slotting) you'll have it up and able to use in less then 40 seconds anyway, which is fast enough.
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Agreed. I grabbed it on my WP/WM Tanker for opening aggro grab and it's always ready for the next mob with 2 slots in it for dam/rech.
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Originally Posted by Sprite Fire
Or even some AOE. Not all builds have a lot of AOE. I am playing a SR/MA tanker at the moment, just 1 PBAOE in the whole thing prior to epic. And it's not a particularly good one either (T8 too, so you don't get it for a long time). The point of a tanker is Agro control. PBAOE are beautiful for generating agro.
So i took spring attack. Love it. It's damage mitigation (Knock Down), Agro generation and damage all in one. The damage isn't wonderful. But its good enough for it's purpose. Besides, propperly slotted and overall io'd for recharge (i mean seriously? SR doesn't need defense IO set slotting) you'll have it up and able to use in less then 40 seconds anyway, which is fast enough. |
Afterburner is full of win. I love this power... the others are alright. Spring attack and burnout seem pretty neat but I haven't felt overly compelled to take them.
My two cents:
Afterburner: The best T5. It significantly increases my DPS uptime on Marauder in Lambda, as well as a few other fights; it gives me a lower intensity but much longer duration phase shift; it gives anti-fly protection which is crucial for my ranged defense dependent builds - ran into a few AE mishes where half the enemies had web grenades; it can be a LotG mule, giving Flight two mules. I was very skeptical of this power originally, I am a true believer now.
Burnout: The primary secondary restriction really limits it; abilities which crash will continue to keep your endurance from regenerating even when the godmode is supposed to trump that. However, it presents a real and viable alternative to LotG slaving for the cash strapped. You might not be able to get perma-light form as a freem, but you can get a really long light form when you need it.
Long-Range Teleport: Superfluous, imo. Nice, but not great. I only take it on RP primary characters. Teleport would be better if it worked through the map.
Spring Attack: should have belonged to teleport. This attack gets noticeably better the more global recharge you have; on a low recharge character, I would skip. On a high recharge damage character, or anything stone armor, take it.
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Doesn't really matter all that much about seems, to be honest. The numbers were looked at and discussed to death when the set first came out, and they said middle of the road (with Incendiary Ammo, I believe). That means Lethal was a little lower, but even then, it's still in line with other sets. Even if a set is weaker than some others, it doesn't matter, as long as it is in line with all other sets. There's no way to make every set equally uber (and such an approach would probably be rather boring).|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Actually, with IOs involved, Dual Pistols (which I love) seems more lower middle than just middle.
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And just as a reminder about "seems" there are times where Dual Pistols feels better or slight worse than Archery and Assault Rifle, other non-crashing nuke sets. I rather like Hail of Bullets more than the others, but they all have their own strengths and weaknesses. In other words, Dual Pistols is balanced with other sets.
For Spring Attack (you mentioned it in a later post), the animation is indeed awesome. You leap off the screen and reappear where you targeted, making a large crater in the ground. You have a 2/3 chance of knocking mobs down as well, which is quite satisfying. The power is fun for that, let alone the extra AOE damage. Just think its recharge is a bit too long for what it does.
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Personally, this simply annoyed me. After all these years of "we can't make Fly go faster because the cap is based on a server/tech limitation", we get something that isn't fly, but transcends that cap. Ditto with the Rocket Board. If the limitations that enforced the old cap were lessened, I just want fly to be able to be slotted up above it's current (lower) cap.
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Originally Posted by RaikenX
Finally, we were granted T5's for travel pools, and fly got Afterburner. A boost to flight speed that goes BEYOND the normal cap.
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That is the landing animation. There's even a texture crater where you land.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Spring Attack, just like you said, it's good enough really. My problem with it, is I don't know if I care for the animation or not
I've yet to get a good look at it to see how it looks when they land. And if it looks terrible (I'm hopign for a one fisted pound to the ground as the character lands) I'm not to sure I want it. |
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Originally Posted by RaikenX
The biggest "LOL" for me on the T5's is Afterburner.
Believe i said it on the Beta forums as well... For YEARS...people would knock, piss, and moan about how fly was so ssllooww. "Why would you pick fly as a travel power over something like super speed or super jump, unless it's for concept? It's so slow it's pitiful!" and other such comments were all too common on the boards. The devs did numerous tweaks over the years with hover and fly, such as boosting the base flight speed, bringing us closer to the cap, until eventually, you could hit the flight speed cap with little to no slotting needed. But of course..."its still too slow". Finally, we were granted T5's for travel pools, and fly got Afterburner. A boost to flight speed that goes BEYOND the normal cap. And, with a smidge of slotting (i believe i've read that 2 flight speeds in both fly and afterburner gets you ~80-ish mph...which i just now checked with Mids...and listed like 84.9 mph). Here comes the kicker. After the initial joy-gasm subsided..."It's not worth it...it's too slow" comments started cropping up all over the place. I said it then...I'll say it now. Hello, Square One. |
I belong to THIS school of thought on the new T5s. I was thrilled when my vet status finally allowed me to take a permanent travel power as low as level 6 and without taking and 2nd power.. coupled with the fitness pool becoming inherent I was able to take powers from my primary and secondary much quicker and even supliment my build with things like Hasten and combat jumping or even stuff from the leadership pool.. that made my characters tougher and able to fight harder.
Why on earth would I want to take 3 travel pool powers. I know players now that don't take ANY and simply use Ninja run coupled with prestige runs. Okay Ninja Run + Quick + 0ne IO in swift = 56.73 MPH per combat attributes. Well.. Fly with 1 IO in Fly and one IO in Swift = 58.63 MPH. but fly is too slow.. right
I'll use my power selection elsewhere thanks
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What I argue as 'entitlement' is that spending 2 powers to get these being too much. Not only did we get inherent fitness (freeing up 3 powers for many powergamers), but we also got the pools adjusted so you can *skip* the tier 1/2s...so if you picked the medicine pool for Aid Self, you can save another pool choice...or had to get boxing for tough, that's another...If you want the higher tier powers, a clever player can do so easily by shuffling some powers and adjusting some choices because we now have more options.
My guess is, if you feel you have to defend your opinion on the worth of these powers, maybe your argument is on uneven terms to begin with. If you don't think these powers are very good that's your opinion and no one (at least I'm not) is saying you're wrong. But that isn't stopping you from jumping to that conclusion? Paranoid, maybe?