Time Overpowered
By
Adamant,
Posted on: 2011-09-15 08:56 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Originally Posted by Maroon Warlock
Time Manipulation is new, shiny, and has some fun toys. However, I think it is just TOO powerful! Time can:
-heal -debuff regen -get a 4 mag hold that can also hinder enemy healing -lay out a hold patch like Volcanic Gasses that also slows (but doesn't have a 50 mag fear or do dmg) -perma-buff defense and to-hit on allies and self -increase recovery -improve recharge with two powers -buff damage -debuff damage -debuff to-hit -buff regen -debuff resistance and defense with one power What Time does NOT do is increase resistance, offer mez protection/mez recovery, or rez allies. Now, the only powers that I have a problem with are Time Stop (the hold) used in conjunction with Time Crawl, Distortion Field being a placed hold patch that slows, and the BIGGEST offender: Slowed Response!!! Ok, Slowed Response. What do I have against it? It is a tier 8 power in Time Manipulation. Thermal Radiation has Melt Armor, which is a tier 9 power. When comparing the two, Slowed Response has a considerably larger radius (25ft vs 15ft), slightly longer range (80ft vs 70ft), uses less endurance, and has the potential to debuff by more with Time Crawl. Slowed Response lasts for 30 seconds and recharges in 1m 30s. Melt Armor lasts for 40s (the only thing going for it compared to Slowed Response) and recharges in 2m 30s. Being a therm, I would MUCH rather have the 30s duration with 1m 30s recharge and a radius of 25ft! I think most enemies debuffed by that much won't even last the 30 seconds, so why do we need 40s on Melt Armor? Basically, my biggest beef with Time Manipulation is that I feel that its tier 8 Slowed Response is superior to Thermal Radiation's tier 9 Melt Armor. Does anyone else out there feel the same way about those two powers? |
Compare Slowed Response to Freezing Rain or Sleet.
I'm pretty sure the "hold patch like Volcanic Gasses that also slows" isn't right either. It's a Slow and Recharge patch which has a chance to hold only those affected by Time Crawl, isn't it?
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Nope. I don't really have a problem with this.| Basically, my biggest beef with Time Manipulation is that I feel that its tier 8 Slowed Response is superior to Thermal Radiation's tier 9 Melt Armor. Does anyone else out there feel the same way about those two powers? |
Sets are going to be different. In some aspects Time will have it better, in others Thermal with have it better.
Yes Slowed Response is better than Melt Armor. But having one power better than a simular power from another set does not make it overpowered.
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Overpowered no.
Better than Thermal possibly.
Devs tend to balance against the objective, how does it compare to their hypothetical baseline.
For example there is the old example Tar patch vs Disruption arrow, acid arrow and glue arrow. Tar patch is almost as good as 3 powers in TA.
So lets say hypothetically their margin of error is 10% off the baseline, where if its more than 10% stronger or weaker it gets buffed or nerfed.
That would mean the strongest vs the weakest could be 20% hypothetically.
Time is strong no doubt, but not overpowered, but possibly up there with Rad or kin.
Trust me there are MUCH weaker sets out there than thermal
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Time is the willpower of support sets. It can do everything in that list but it doesn't do them to the same level as more specialised choices. Regen debuffs peak at 150% instead of the 500% or higher found in some other sets, a boss level control from stacking 2 powers is hardly a new ability and in order to use half of the defensive debuffs you have to go into melee range - a significant trade off. Slowed Response can beat Melt Armour's debuff values on targets hit with Time Crawl which is single target and takes time to place, especially if you want to tag more than one target before debuffing. On the other hand Freezing Rain beats both sets of debuff values, has a shorter recharge than either, also does slow and knockdown and is available at 16...
Not overpowered, just has a lot of potential.
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I find that Siege and Nightstar last much longer than 40 seconds in the BAF. They survive long enough for Melt Armor to recharge a couple of times (my controller doesn't have MA perma).
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Originally Posted by Maroon Warlock
Being a therm, I would MUCH rather have the 30s duration with 1m 30s recharge and a radius of 25ft! I think most enemies debuffed by that much won't even last the 30 seconds, so why do we need 40s on Melt Armor?
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This was beat to death on the beta boards. Anyone who played the set for a while felt it really wasn't over powered compared to the other top sets. The comment about about "the Willpower of control" is accurate.
None of those things are really the reason Time is overpowered, IMO.
The fact that you can soft cap to every position, including Psi, on SOs because Farsight can be Power Boost'ed might be, though.
Time actually isn't just up there with Rad and Kin... its competing with (and to some extent beating) Super Reflexes and Energy Aura.
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Yes, this set is overpowered. Fortunately, this is not the Time Manipulation set. |
Originally Posted by Maroon Warlock
Time Manipulation is new, shiny, and has some fun toys. However, I think it is just TOO powerful! Time can:
-heal -debuff regen -get a 4 mag hold that can also hinder enemy healing -lay out a hold patch like Volcanic Gasses that also slows (but doesn't have a 50 mag fear or do dmg) -perma-buff defense and to-hit on allies and self -increase recovery -improve recharge with two powers -buff damage -debuff damage -debuff to-hit -buff regen -debuff resistance and defense with one power What Time does NOT do is increase resistance, offer mez protection/mez recovery, or rez allies. Now, the only powers that I have a problem with are Time Stop (the hold) used in conjunction with Time Crawl, Distortion Field being a placed hold patch that slows, and the BIGGEST offender: Slowed Response!!! Ok, Slowed Response. What do I have against it? It is a tier 8 power in Time Manipulation. Thermal Radiation has Melt Armor, which is a tier 9 power. When comparing the two, Slowed Response has a considerably larger radius (25ft vs 15ft), slightly longer range (80ft vs 70ft), uses less endurance, and has the potential to debuff by more with Time Crawl. Slowed Response lasts for 30 seconds and recharges in 1m 30s. Melt Armor lasts for 40s (the only thing going for it compared to Slowed Response) and recharges in 2m 30s. Being a therm, I would MUCH rather have the 30s duration with 1m 30s recharge and a radius of 25ft! I think most enemies debuffed by that much won't even last the 30 seconds, so why do we need 40s on Melt Armor? Basically, my biggest beef with Time Manipulation is that I feel that its tier 8 Slowed Response is superior to Thermal Radiation's tier 9 Melt Armor. Does anyone else out there feel the same way about those two powers? |
Here are a few areas in which your view of the set is not in alignment with the reality of the set.
Yes it heals. It actually has two heals, but the tier 9 is on a pretty large recharge for a heal.
The debuff regen. It's maxed at about 150%. This amount of regen debuff is so strong, they gave it to the Beam set. Try that next to poison gas trap which places a hold, is aoe and debuffs regen 1000%.
The mag 4 hold you are refering to is after placing two powers onto a single target. Very nice, but hardly something to add to argue that something is overpowered.
There is not layout hold patch like volcanic gases. It only slows and slows rech. You can place on a couple of bad guys a chance to hold. It's not a fantastic chance either and it doesn't last very long.
The perma-able buff to defense and to hit is one of the selling points of the set. Personally, I say it's about time a set was given to defenders that actually allows us to go and stay in melee range. I know, Rad/ fenders and others will argue my point, but you guys have to worry about toggle drops and the like.
The increased recovery happens only for 30 sec on the tier 9. Not permable in the slightest.
Improve recharge is the other good selling point of this set. It also gets teams into trouble as they have a tendency to use all their endo fast. Kind of a double edged sword with this power (and yes, i think it's awesome).
buff damage and buff regen. Again, it's a single target power. Good, but hardly anything overpowered.
Debuff damage and tohit. Nice ability, very good while in melee range. It's no better than several toggels available to players already. It's real advantage is toggle drops only happen with a self mez.
debuff res and def with one power. Lets see... how many powers do this already? Or at worst, they take two powers but add two or more of the following -tohit -damage or chance of hold, etc. Point being this is hardly a unique power unless you are refering to the extra -res given to one opponent. In that case remember that once again, you have to hit with an additional power to set it up.
Is this set really overpowered? Not really, but I will agree with anyone who says it's a very nice set. One of the better ones available to defenders actually. It provides moments of glory and good all around performance.
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First, is that a complaint or an enthusiastic 'hooray!"|
Originally Posted by Maroon Warlock
Time Manipulation is new, shiny, and has some fun toys. However, I think it is just TOO powerful! Time can:
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Second, you should have seen it before they changed it.
Third, no it isn't. (see other comments comparing and contrasting)
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Originally Posted by Granite Agent
This was beat to death on the beta boards. Anyone who played the set for a while felt it really wasn't over powered compared to the other top sets. The comment about about "the Willpower of control" is accurate.
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This is probably a better argument to make, IMO. Two reasons why I don't think it's quite right though, debuff resistance and mez protection. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
None of those things are really the reason Time is overpowered, IMO.
The fact that you can soft cap to every position, including Psi, on SOs because Farsight can be Power Boost'ed might be, though. Time actually isn't just up there with Rad and Kin... its competing with (and to some extent beating) Super Reflexes and Energy Aura. |
Well that and you will probably play a Time char as a fender or a rupter. I would take scrapper, brute or stalker damage any day over what those do.
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This.
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Originally Posted by Shadey_NA
This is probably a better argument to make, IMO. Two reasons why I don't think it's quite right though, debuff resistance and mez protection.
Well that and you will probably play a Time char as a fender or a rupter. I would take scrapper, brute or stalker damage any day over what those do. |
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Thats pretty much true, specialy the mez protection hits hard.|
Originally Posted by Shadey_NA
This is probably a better argument to make, IMO. Two reasons why I don't think it's quite right though, debuff resistance and mez protection.
Well that and you will probably play a Time char as a fender or a rupter. I would take scrapper, brute or stalker damage any day over what those do. |
It is only once you combine it with either another time or mez-protecting set it becomes really interesting. But then again, you can think up alot other sets (def combined with sonic) that achive sortlike strength.
The only thing that might be 'possible' overpowerd i would say the defense buff (perma with 3 SO) and the recharge buff. Other then that, its just a lovely mix of all other sets.
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This makes me curious about the dreaded 'n' word. No not that one.
So, with these new sets, what happens if they do turn out to be OP'd. Would the Dev's nerf them down like before now that they are being purchased individually? I would hope so, for overall balance reasons. I can just see a huge fallout compared to the normal deal, if everyone can post.
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Time was reduced (not nerfed because it wasn't live yet) in beta by a fair amount. I think it's now up there with the heavy hitters among the buff/debuff sets, but it doesn't surpass them.
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Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
This makes me curious about the dreaded 'n' word. No not that one.
So, with these new sets, what happens if they do turn out to be OP'd. Would the Dev's nerf them down like before now that they are being purchased individually? I would hope so, for overall balance reasons. I can just see a huge fallout compared to the normal deal, if everyone can post. |
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Alright, so after reading the responses, I'll admit that Time Manipulation is not overpowered like I made it out to be. I think the "Willpower" of buffs comment sounds pretty accurate. I do think some of the powers are original and refreshing. However, I'm still a little bitter about the hold and the AoE click res/def debuff.
As for the Slow/Hold patch, I still do not know how it works. I just saw "chance to hold" and that it was a patch and thought "OMG Volcanic Gasses clone overpowered!" I think it still has a chance to hold without Time Crawl, but either way, that chance is small from what I've heard reading further into it. So, it's more like a slow/-rech patch with a small chance to hold; not a hold patch.
Time Stop. As some of you mentioned, stacking holds in non-control sets is nothing new. What IS new about that regard is that this is the first buff/debuff set that does this. Ice Blast/Time will sure be able to stack a lot of holds! Anyway, I can get over this though. The -heal aspect is pretty cool I think. I just wish the holds in some other buff/debuff sets (dark miasma and poisons) had some additional effects.
Slowed Response vs Melt Armor. I STILL do NOT like how these even out. Melt Armor lasts longer and is permable, but Slowed Response is more easily permable AND has a bigger radius. Slowed Response also burns less endurance, and has a longer range, but that doesn't really bother me. I guess I can take solace in the fact that if a therm cast Melt Armor and got one-shotted right after, that debuff would last longer than Slowed Response under the same circumstances. I think Melt Armor should also have a 25ft radius to help justify its longer recharge time and heavier end cost, but that's just how the jealous therm feels 
I thought that a click res/def debuff was a specialty of Thermal Radiation, so I'm a little miffed that the "Willpower" of buff sets does that better. Is Time Manipulation an overpowered set overall? As many of you have pointed out, no. I now agree with you all on that. Thank you for the responses and putting things in better perspective in regards to Time Manipulation. I just have beef with the radius of Slowed Response. A small detail, I know, somebody call the WAAAAAmbulance on me :P
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As a Sonic resonance: Liquefy fan, I feel your pain.
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Originally Posted by Maroon Warlock
Slowed Response vs Melt Armor. I STILL do NOT like how these even out. Melt Armor lasts longer and is permable, but Slowed Response is more easily permable AND has a bigger radius. Slowed Response also burns less endurance, and has a longer range, but that doesn't really bother me. I guess I can take solace in the fact that if a therm cast Melt Armor and got one-shotted right after, that debuff would last longer than Slowed Response under the same circumstances. I think Melt Armor should also have a 25ft radius to help justify its longer recharge time and heavier end cost, but that's just how the jealous therm feels
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On the bright side Maroon, Thermal doesn't have to deal with Time's Juncture getting detoggled all the time due to mez 
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No its not.|
Originally Posted by Maroon Warlock
Time Manipulation is new, shiny, and has some fun toys. However, I think it is just TOO powerful! Time can:
blahblah |
Pick pretty much any set and remplace the names on your list. It fits.
PS: Fulcrum Shift.
I thought it was bang on myself, although that means it might be underpowered to some peoples needs but certainly did not feel over powered at all.
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I've felt that Melt Armor was underpowered ever since I first got it years ago due largely to the stupidly high recharge on it. So you're not alone in that individual regard. But as others have mentioned, there are a lot of powers that are superior to Melt Armor (two others right off the top of my head are Sleet and Freezing Rain) and the devs just don't look at it on a power-by-power instance.|
Originally Posted by Maroon Warlock
Basically, my biggest beef with Time Manipulation is that I feel that its tier 8 Slowed Response is superior to Thermal Radiation's tier 9 Melt Armor. Does anyone else out there feel the same way about those two powers?
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But Time being overpowered? Nah, can't get on board with that.
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Is Farsight possible to perma?
If so, how much recharge does it take?
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Yes, and 100%. (2minute duration, 4minute recharge)
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Is Farsight possible to perma?
If so, how much recharge does it take? |
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Its a base 4 minute recharge, 2 minute up time, so just some SO's.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Is Farsight possible to perma?
If so, how much recharge does it take? |
Its not a bad set, very likely not better than the classics Dark, Rad, Traps, Kin or Cold.
If MM pets would have been hastable it could have been the best MM set (which wouldnt actually even be overpowered), but they'r not.
Time Manipulation is new, shiny, and has some fun toys. However, I think it is just TOO powerful! Time can:
-heal
-debuff regen
-get a 4 mag hold that can also hinder enemy healing
-lay out a hold patch like Volcanic Gasses that also slows (but doesn't have a 50 mag fear or do dmg)
-perma-buff defense and to-hit on allies and self
-increase recovery
-improve recharge with two powers
-buff damage
-debuff damage
-debuff to-hit
-buff regen
-debuff resistance and defense with one power
What Time does NOT do is increase resistance, offer mez protection/mez recovery, or rez allies. Now, the only powers that I have a problem with are Time Stop (the hold) used in conjunction with Time Crawl, Distortion Field being a placed hold patch that slows, and the BIGGEST offender: Slowed Response!!!
Ok, Slowed Response. What do I have against it? It is a tier 8 power in Time Manipulation. Thermal Radiation has Melt Armor, which is a tier 9 power. When comparing the two, Slowed Response has a considerably larger radius (25ft vs 15ft), slightly longer range (80ft vs 70ft), uses less endurance, and has the potential to debuff by more with Time Crawl. Slowed Response lasts for 30 seconds and recharges in 1m 30s. Melt Armor lasts for 40s (the only thing going for it compared to Slowed Response) and recharges in 2m 30s.
Being a therm, I would MUCH rather have the 30s duration with 1m 30s recharge and a radius of 25ft! I think most enemies debuffed by that much won't even last the 30 seconds, so why do we need 40s on Melt Armor?
Basically, my biggest beef with Time Manipulation is that I feel that its tier 8 Slowed Response is superior to Thermal Radiation's tier 9 Melt Armor. Does anyone else out there feel the same way about those two powers?