City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Freedom? Hardly

2short2care

By 2short2care,
Posted on: 2011-09-06 24:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Father Xmas View Post
Well this says only VIP get one token a month. Everyone can get one for every 1200PP they buy.
Well as I said in looking at the fine print I haven't been able to actually find it anywhere so I have no clue where I originally got the impression. And I see something sneaky. Spend $15 and get 1 token, subscribe 1 month and get 1 token. Since the monthly subscription is approximately $15.00 that makes sense.

So I think something in one of the various posts lent itself to that interpretation but it wasn't clearly never backed up by any further information to that effect. ::shrug::

But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius

List of Invention Guides

 

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Originally Posted by Feycat View Post
I did in the second post so you didn't have to!
Totally missed that...like I said, sleepies taking over!

Methinks I'm going to keep the link in my earlier post though just so Zwil will have an easy point of reference to where I conveys my thoughts a wee bit better than what I posted in this thread. Keep my thoughts consolidated so to speak for the feedback purposes.

 

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Yay! This thread, again. (More than one up now.)

The Free version of CoH is meant to be an introductory, and that's it. It will be replacing the original 14 day Trial. They gave those players a few perks, but it's still meant only as a way to showcase the basics of the game.

No, Freebies should not have access to those chat channels, especially tells. I do not want to go back to the days of Farmers sending me tell after tell and I don't want to see it in broadcast where I look for teams and gather members. Ditto with Request.

Someone spends $5 they become Premium and have access to a little more, but it is a dollar amount and most farmers are not going to risk have an account banned they spent actual money on. That being said Premium is a way to pick around and look at the various features of the game without fully commiting.

VIP is what it all comes to in the end. You pay the subscription, you reap the benefits. This Hybird system (not free-to-play) was never designed for existing subscribers to step down, but if they have to they still have the ability to play, albeit in a limited fashion.

That beings said: Option #4 is nice, buuuut I would say this Elite status is temporary. The returning player receives X amount of time at Elite status based on prior play history with a mandatory Paid period of 1 year + (Maybe one month of Elite per year or six month period.) After which the player drops to Premium status with access to whatever Tier perks they currently have. It's like an olive branch luring them back to VIP.

 

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Originally Posted by LadyGrimrose View Post
This Hybird system (not free-to-play)...
Folks keep arguing that because COH-Freedom is a hybrid model, that it's not really a free-to-play game. I respectfully disagree with this notion. Any time a game adds a free game download and free-to-play account element to their game, it becomes branded by the industry as a free-to-play game. A hybrid model is only a variant of the free-to-play model that just has more account stratifications than 100% F2P and the 50% F2P/50% Sub models that are out there.

Just look at the two well-known hybrid models that are currently on the market...they were both marketed by their company as (and branded by the industry as) free-to-play games. And City of Heroes is no different, as COH-Freedom has already been branded by the industry as free-to-play...just do a Google search for "City of Heroes Free to Play" and see how many industry publications/blogs pop up that discuss the game's move to a free-to-play model.

 

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The amount of returning and new players that i've seen in the game last week or two has been more than i've seen returning in the entire year so far, so just the hype of Freedom is working already.

@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!

 

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Originally Posted by Black Zot View Post
Developers have been trying since before MMOs existed to squelch farmer spam. Every single effort has failed miserably. NCSoft is living in a dream world if they think any system they come up with (including this hamfisted joke) won't be circumvented within a month or two.
Ummm... No.

While no system is perfect, the amount of RMT spam in CoH has been cut back dramatically over the past few years.

I don't want anything done to undo what has been put in place, especially not simply to please players who haven't spent a dime to support the game.

Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides

 

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Originally Posted by ScottyB View Post
Am I think only one who somehow reads FPARN as "pon farr" for no good reason at all?
7 years is a long time to go without isn't it?


As far as spam goes, the changes to email eliminated spam for me 100%. I haven't seen goldseller spam since that update. Granted I don't play on freedom though, so it may still exist there.

Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!

 

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Originally Posted by GadgetDon View Post
My main concern is that the first experience of a returning premium character with an IOed character (who isn't of a level to get use of the Invention Experience) is having to replace all those IOs. If IOs degraded to SO levels, the first experience can be "diving back into the fight".
Actually, I can somewhat attest to that kind of feeling, owing to the way I play. See, when I play a character, I play that charter exclusively, sometimes for weeks and even months at a time. When I'm done, I swap to another and do the same. What this means is that, among 50 or so characters, some get left behind so hard that I don't touch them for two, three, four years sometimes. Logging into these characters with builds from 2006, costumes as old as the world and bios from when I didn't speak English very well... Is a lot of work.

Usually, when I return to a character, the first thing I do is a respect and reshuffing of slots and enhancements, especially to take advantage of Stamina. The second thing I do is hit Icon/Facemaker/ThatWomanOnTheStreetInImperial and update costumes made when I sucked at making them. The next thing after that is to reset my binds, rearrange my tabs and reshuffle my powers. The next thing after that is to fix my ageing bio. Only after all of this is done - and it can take up to a day - can I actually play the character.

That's what I foresee returning players having to do.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
Ummm... No.

While no system is perfect, the amount of RMT spam in CoH has been cut back dramatically over the past few years.

I don't want anything done to undo what has been put in place, especially not simply to please players who haven't spent a dime to support the game.
I haven't seen any spam in this game in years. Maybe the spammers have just all moved to Freedom server, but as far as I'm concerned it works perfectly.

"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...

 

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Originally Posted by Manoa View Post
Folks keep arguing that because COH-Freedom is a hybrid model, that it's not really a free-to-play game. I respectfully disagree with this notion. Any time a game adds a free game download and free-to-play account element to their game, it becomes branded by the industry as a free-to-play game. A hybrid model is only a variant of the free-to-play model that just has more account stratifications than 100% F2P and the 50% F2P/50% Sub models that are out there.
What this means, however, is the development team is not obligated to follow the traditional "free" to play model. What the industry has branded the game is immaterial. They could have branded it a cucumber and it won't have made the Free player options and greener. None of the game's official correspondence or promotional materials have claimed it is a F2P title, and all of the options that Free accounts have access to are clearly laid out on the site. What the industry does is not a mandate on what any developer in the industry is obligated to do.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Manoa View Post
I know a number of former long-term subscribers who were seriously considering returning as Premium Players when they first learned about COH Freedom, but have since decided against it. The number one dealkiller I've heard is that they fall below the 5 year, 3 month veteran badge threshold needed to return to their characters as they remember them (i.e. access to their existing IOs). The $2 invention license thing isn't going over very well with them and they don't want to go through the onerous process of respecing or creating a new build. They recognize that the game is completely playable without IOs, but being blocked from using the existing loot that they worked so hard to acquire is leaving a pretty sour taste in their mouths. So they're taking the path of least resistance...they're just not returning at all.
Ever think to consider that the new system is not aimed at such people?

If they are that bitter over it, chances are, IMO, they would just find something else that was 'unacceptable' within a short time.

If using a second build to fill it with IOs is too much trouble and $2 is too much to spend, then those people are simply not the target audience.

As soon as I hear things like 'all my hard work' about an MMO, I pretty much know that the type of gamer behind the words is not someone I want to play with, personally, because that attitude is not fun.

"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45

 

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I don't see a problem with the system exactly how it is. They are playing for FREE, as far as I am concerned, they shouldn't even be able to get to 50 á la Trial Accounts.

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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster View Post
As soon as I hear things like 'all my hard work' about an MMO, I pretty much know that the type of gamer behind the words is not someone I want to play with, personally, because that attitude is not fun.
Agreed. If you can claim ANYTHING in this MMO is "hard work" it is either poorly designed or you, the player, are doing it wrong.


 

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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster View Post

As soon as I hear things like 'all my hard work' about an MMO, I pretty much know that the type of gamer behind the words is not someone I want to play with, personally, because that attitude is not fun.

While not intrinsically hard per se. If you logged in tomorrow and every single character you'd ever made was gone, all those years of alts and TF's and SG events and badges and et al just vanished, wouldn't you feel like 'all your hard work' was gone?

It might be hyperbole in this context, but the effort put into playing, either viewed as easy or hard, is still an investment. Some are more invested than others. We hope the majority of returning prem's aren't so invested they can't adjust/get so upset they don't even care to purchase anything.

Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!

 

Posted

Freedom - totally.

We are free to pick and choose what we want to pay for. It can be everything via subscribing or just the parts we want.

Before pay nothing and you could play for a couple weeks up to level 13 on a trial. Now you can do most of the core game for free on a limited number of characters.

Pay a little more, get to do a little more.

This. Is. Freedom!

total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

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Originally Posted by MaestroMavius View Post
While not intrinsically hard per se. If you logged in tomorrow and every single character you'd ever made was gone, all those years of alts and TF's and SG events and badges and et al just vanished, wouldn't you feel like 'all your hard work' was gone?

It might be hyperbole in this context, but the effort put into playing, either viewed as easy or hard, is still an investment. Some are more invested than others. We hope the majority of returning prem's aren't so invested they can't adjust/get so upset they don't even care to purchase anything.
All of their stuff isn't gone, they just have limited access unless they unlock things. Some of that will require more money but still less than the full sub. If they don't want to pay anything and don't like that they cannot access everything the problem is theirs.

total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

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Originally Posted by SwellGuy View Post
All of their stuff isn't gone, they just have limited access unless they unlock things. Some of that will require more money but still less than the full sub. If they don't want to pay anything and don't like that they cannot access everything the problem is theirs.
Agreed.

The point of this is to get folks to feel the undying, STRONG urge to re-sub or sub for the first time.

Not to give them the same experience they had while subbed for free.

I don't get why some folks have completely missed the point of COH Freedom.

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Originally Posted by Manoa View Post
The $2 invention license thing isn't going over very well with them and they don't want to go through the onerous process of respecing or creating a new build...

...the game is far more likely to capture revenue (whether through microtrans or reupping subs) from [returning premium] players than from free-to-play players.
This is almost (note: almost) directly contradictory. You're saying that someone is unwilling to the point of having a "sour taste" to pony up a measly one-time fee of $2 to get access to what they consider an essential part of the game they used to pay $15 per month to access, yet if that one impediment were removed, they would come back and spend even more than that.

I find it much more likely that if this $2 obstacle were removed, even if that were the only thing stopping someone from coming back, once they get back any other microtransaction would still be viewed as a "sour taste" and not purchased, thus off they go again. I just don't buy the notion that once they get back, all of a sudden, their extreme frugality ($2, for crying out loud!) would suddenly disappear at all of the wonder that is the game, especially since as a returning player, they already pretty much know what they're going in for.

You have to understand the delicate balance between giving enough away to entice people to play who normally wouldn't and giving too much away so that people who would be paying for your microtransactions or your monthly subscription fee decide not to pay anything. As I've repeatedly said, if they err on the side of being too restrictive, they can always make minor adjustments to make more stuff available. If they err on the side of not being restrictive enough, though, they can never undo that.

We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)

 

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Originally Posted by joebartender View Post
You do not understand what a bait and switch scam is.

A bait and switch scam is when something is advertised at a low price and when you get to the store the item in question is not available but a higher priced substitute is.

The goal being for you to feel like you have put enough opportunity cost into the trip to the store that you feel compelled to buy something.

City of Heroes is advertising exactly what they have to offer and you can make an informed decision to play or not to play. There is no attempt to hide details, obscure facts or make it seem that Free players will have abilities that in fact will be locked out when they decide to play.

The Freedom overview let's a free player or premium player know where they stand in regard to what content and abilities will be open to them. The game website for all intents and purposes at this points funnels you to that part of the website. A person trying to make a choice of whether to get into City of Heroes would need to make a conscious effort to avoid the info list here http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/news/f...player_cho.php among other places.
But if you skim an advertisement and form a complete idea of what the thing is they're selling based on whatever words are in the biggest font, and then you go and see it is *not* the thing you were expecting, isn't that totally the fault of the company?

There's the word FREEDOM and my account is called Free. Clearly that means everything in the game is available for free except some XP potions. So it's Paragon Studios' responsibility to make FREEDOM match my expectations, otherwise it's totally a bait and switch scam.



Character index

 

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Originally Posted by Silver Gale View Post
But if you skim an advertisement and form a complete idea of what the thing is they're selling based on whatever words are in the biggest font, and then you go and see it is *not* the thing you were expecting, isn't that totally the fault of the company?

There's the word FREEDOM and my account is called Free. Clearly that means everything in the game is available for free except some XP potions. So it's Paragon Studios' responsibility to make FREEDOM match my expectations, otherwise it's totally a bait and switch scam.
Very well. Please do be placing many complaints on file with the BBB. Please do also be sending written notice to Paragon Studios and NCsoft that you are pursuing legal action.

If you are not doing these things? Tell me why they should care.

 

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Originally Posted by MentalMaden View Post
The purpose is to draw new customers in with the hopes of them becoming VIPs or buying ala cart, give them all of that for free and NCSoft will shut the game down within a year because it is no longer making enough money to justify keeping active
Fixed that for you.

NCSoft is NOT shy about shutting down games when they stop being profitable.

Remember Auto Assault? Tabula Rasa? Lineage? All games that stopped making money. All games that no longer exist.

If you give people too much of the game for free, there is zero incentive to ever give them any money at all. If enough people have no incentive to give them money the game will drop below the threshold of "too expensive and not profitable enough to keep alive." And NCSoft WILL pull the plug when the game starts costing them money instead of earning it. Make no mistake about that.

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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

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Originally Posted by TonyV View Post
This is almost (note: almost) directly contradictory. You're saying that someone is unwilling to the point of having a "sour taste" to pony up a measly one-time fee of $2 to get access to what they consider an essential part of the game they used to pay $15 per month to access, yet if that one impediment were removed, they would come back and spend even more than that.
It's not as contradictory as it sounds based on pure logic, because people rarely spend their money logically. I know that from personal experience. I've paid for quite a few F2P games in my time, and these have always been games I've "respected" in one way or another. If a game can do enough for me to earn my respect, I'm willing to do enough to pay that back in real cash. By contrast, a game that demands my money, even just a little bit, is not going to get any because I won't feel it "deserves" my hard-earned cash.

You may think subscription-based MMOs are different, but they really aren't. I will never again pay for an MMO without a free Trial, and the only reason I subscribed to City of Heroes without one was because my brother bought the game and a two-month time card for me as a birthday present, so I didn't actually have to pay for it for over three months, and when that three months expired, I was already enamoured with the game enough to want to pay it. If I get into a game via a Free Trial and THAT convinces me the game is worth my respect, I'll pay for it.

Maybe it's just me, but any game that's willing to give me just that little bit more is much more likely to make me feel like giving back to it. Any game that I can respect is worth paying for, even if it's free. You know what they say - "If you like the game, support the developers."

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
What this means, however, is the development team is not obligated to follow the traditional "free" to play model. What the industry has branded the game is immaterial. They could have branded it a cucumber and it won't have made the Free player options and greener. None of the game's official correspondence or promotional materials have claimed it is a F2P title, and all of the options that Free accounts have access to are clearly laid out on the site. What the industry does is not a mandate on what any developer in the industry is obligated to do.
Again, I respectfully disagree. What the industry has branded the game is completely relevant and material, as it sets up player expectation (for both new and returning players).

Free-to-play is just a play on psychology where the game developer creates the illusion that there is no cost when there in fact is. These games free player gets a taste of the game, but can never fully experience the game unless they pay for it in some fashion (whether through microtrans or a sub). And that's perfectly okay...that's how the system is supposed to work. A game with a free-to-play component should have something that's pay-for-play that incentivizes the free player into generating revenue.

The "hybrid" model uses the same exact psychology as 100% and two-tier F2P models to generate revenue from "free" players. All it is is a different flavor of F2P model. This is the reason why the industry rightfully brands COH-Freedom as a "free-to-play" game. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck (no matter how Paragon Studios is marketing it).

Plus, did you ever stop to consider the reasons why Paragon Studios may be carefully marketing and telling their subscribers Freedom is not really a free-to-play model? They're in the industry and know the industry's perceptions and lingo...so I highly doubt they've fooled themselves into thinking that a hybrid model isn't really F2P. My suspicion is that it's more so to quell the concerns of existing subscribers and to keep them from running away from the "scary F2P stuff."

 

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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster View Post
Ever think to consider that the new system is not aimed at such people?

If they are that bitter over it, chances are, IMO, they would just find something else that was 'unacceptable' within a short time.

If using a second build to fill it with IOs is too much trouble and $2 is too much to spend, then those people are simply not the target audience.

As soon as I hear things like 'all my hard work' about an MMO, I pretty much know that the type of gamer behind the words is not someone I want to play with, personally, because that attitude is not fun.
Then who is the system aimed at?

It certainly isn't aimed at VIP players. If COH subs were generating enough revenue to keep the investors happy and the game running, they wouldn't be adding microtransaction into the picture. An established subscription MMO doesn't add a free-to-play element (whatever the flavor, full F2P or hybrid F2) out of the generosity of their hearts...they do so because they think they can generate more revenue by adding the F2P/microtransaction element than what they're currently achieving with their original 100% subscription.

And I suspect it's not all that aimed at brand spankin' new F2P players. The bottom-tier accounts are pretty much trial accounts without any sort of time limit. But if trial accounts were were doing the trick in generating needed revenues, they wouldn't be adding any sort of F2P element.

To me, the primary demographic that this new model is targeted at is former subscribers. This is a move to generate more revenue (whether microtrans or subscription reups) from this particular demographic. This is the player demographic who is far more likely to add money into the game (compared to their new F2P counterparts)...but you have to recognize the reasons they’re coming back and the stuff they would be interested in purchasing. If incentivized properly, they’ll likely willing to purchase new content and/or look at a subscription to try out the new shinys. But they know what it feels like to have a full game experience and not going to be incentivized to pay money for old content or to get the game working as they remember it.

A successful F2P model breaks down the barriers of entry and imbeds the pay-for stuff later into the play experience (you know, after the player is hooked and wants more). The current model doesn’t do a very good job of this for returning players because it breaks the “free” illusion upon character creation/selection by having their IOs greyed out.

 

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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
Agreed.

The point of this is to get folks to feel the undying, STRONG urge to re-sub or sub for the first time.

Not to give them the same experience they had while subbed for free.

I don't get why some folks have completely missed the point of COH Freedom.
No, the point is to generate revenue from new players and returning players. It doesn't matter whether that revenue comes from subscriptions or microtransactions. The game already had free trials and free reactivation weekends to get folks to feel the "undying, STRONG urge to re-sub or sub for the first time." If these were doing the trick, they wouldn't be adding a F2P/microtransaction element.

I personally am not arguing for returning free players to have the same exact experience as a VIP player. There should be something pay-for that returning free players should be chasing after.

And returning players don't have the expectation to have everything the VIPers do. They don't expect access to the new content, they don't expect access to the incarnate stuff, etc. That's all new stuff and they know they're not going to get it without paying for it.

What returning free players expect (what they view as) a fully functioning game and access to their characters (loot 'n all). It's all old content...why shouldn't they have access to it if they've invested something into the game?

Keep the returning free players chasing after the new shinies instead of forcing them to fill in the gaps in their old play experience, I'll bet you'll be able to capture more revenue from this segment of the playerbase.