1)I'd add a message prompt on first login of all premium accounts detailing changes from VIP to premium including changing from an Invention Based build, to hi-light a)That the invention system need to be purchased, b)But that once the user has purchased the system they gain immediate access to all previously slotted IOs. c)That a 2nd build is available to allow resumption of gaming ability without deleting existing IOs.
2)Allow free players to create teams, that is the biggest hurdle to getting free players to convert from free to premium or VIP. They need to be abl;e to try the MMO aspects of the game without needing VIP/Premium players with them.
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Not really...as I mention in earlier posts, a successful F2P model breaks down as many barriers to entry as possible to get people into the game and hooked. Once they're hooked, they'll be craving more and be far more willing to pay for content than at character creation/selection.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
This is almost (note: almost) directly contradictory. You're saying that someone is unwilling to the point of having a "sour taste" to pony up a measly one-time fee of $2 to get access to what they consider an essential part of the game they used to pay $15 per month to access, yet if that one impediment were removed, they would come back and spend even more than that.
I find it much more likely that if this $2 obstacle were removed, even if that were the only thing stopping someone from coming back, once they get back any other microtransaction would still be viewed as a "sour taste" and not purchased, thus off they go again. I just don't buy the notion that once they get back, all of a sudden, their extreme frugality ($2, for crying out loud!) would suddenly disappear at all of the wonder that is the game, especially since as a returning player, they already pretty much know what they're going in for. You have to understand the delicate balance between giving enough away to entice people to play who normally wouldn't and giving too much away so that people who would be paying for your microtransactions or your monthly subscription fee decide not to pay anything. As I've repeatedly said, if they err on the side of being too restrictive, they can always make minor adjustments to make more stuff available. If they err on the side of not being restrictive enough, though, they can never undo that. |
The problem is that forcing returning premium players to pay for IO access shatters the F2P illusion right off the bat. It creates a barrier to entry that returning players may not be willing to stomach. These are players who have already played the game and have emotional attachments to their characters. And all players don't like their characters (and their loot) messed with. Yes, it's only $2 (oh, that's $2 per month...the way it's set-up is essentially a mini subscription). But returning players are not going to be rational once they've found the existing loot they've acquired is greyed out and unusable.
The point I was trying to make is that returning players are going to be far more likely and willing to pay for microtrans and subs if incentivized properly. The right way to do this is to keep free-players looking forward instead of backward. Returning free players are not going to be all that willing to pay for game functions that they've already played and experienced...that's looking backward. But if you give these returning players access to a fully functioning game as a means to break down their entry barriers, they would be far more willing to pay for new shinys they haven't experienced (say, paying for a sub to try the incarnate content or paying the microtrans to play the Praetorian content).
I just want to point out something - regardless of what you think "free to play" means, Freedom really IS free to play without cost. The free membership is not a "trial", unless you consider that the game you were paying $15/month for back in 2006 was a trial of some sort. The only difference between the free member game in Freedom and the game you played in 2006 is the chat restrictions, the reservation of "pet" archetypes, and the throttled-back enhancement loot drops that we have today in comparison to how they used to drop back then.
You can play the game from end-to-end without paying a dime and have a complete play experience. That's free-to-play. You even get two character slots so you can do it on both blueside and redside.
If you find the experience compelling enough to desire more, then there are more game systems and game content available for generally reasonable dollar costs. There are also more character slots and etc...
Waving your hands about dev intentions towards subscriptions doesn't change the fact that the new game very much IS designed to be a free-to-play game that hopes to entice some dollars out of you. In fact, I have to commend the devs for trying to really BE a hybrid game. I've said this many times before - one compelling reason that freemium games exist as a market is that there is a large group of game players who refuse on principle to take on a monthly subscription charge. They prefer to purchase ala carte EVEN IF IT APPEARS TO PUT THEM AT A DISADVANTAGE IN COMPARISON.
The Paragon Rewards program is exactly the kind of thing that will appeal to those people. I suspect that when enough of those people reach the upper-tiers of game ownership without showing any sign of joining the ranks of subscribers, that we'll eventually see the store sell an "incarnate voucher" that lets a premium player unlock incarnate on one character. Time will tell.
In any case - the free-player game is a complete game experience. It's not some kind of "trial" and thinking of it in those terms is missing the point. It's intended to be a complete game experience that hooks the player into wanting more of the same and becoming willing to part with five bucks here and ten bucks there for costumes and character slots and "Oh, another 400 points will get me to that next reward tier".
Do they want everyone to subscribe? Sure. Do they expect everyone to subscribe? No, and I think that they realize that the non-subscribers are going to greatly outnumber the subscribers as well as potentially generate more revenue than the subscribers over the long haul.
It is far too late to provide feedback on the subject that will be listened to. If that feedback has already been provided when they were listening and could still do something about it, it was ignored or dismissed by those listeners.
I'm relatively certain that such feedback has already been provided, was dismissed and isn't going to be listened to now (even if more people are saying it now than then).
It will succeed. Or, it will bomb. Its' too late for them to change their minds. The decisions have already been made. Nothing so dramatic is going to change within a reasonable time frame; maybe six to eight months after it launches and bombs.
We'll see.
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There's no such thing as "returning Free players".|
Originally Posted by Manoa
Returning free players are not going to be all that willing to pay for game functions that they've already played and experienced...that's looking backward. But if you give these returning players access to a fully functioning game as a means to break down their entry barriers, they would be far more willing to pay for new shinys they haven't experienced (say, paying for a sub to try the incarnate content or paying the microtrans to play the Praetorian content).
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If a player has played the game before and comes back to their old account, then they are a Premium player, and the restrictions on Free accounts do not apply to them. Depending on how long they've played, they might already have access to IOs unlocked.
If a returning player has for some reason forgotten their old account into and is starting over on a new Free account, then they have no characters with IOs that are suddenly grey. And, really, it only makes sense that if you start from scratch on an all-new account, you're going to have to pay to get back where you were. There's no "looking backward" there.
Now, you might want to argue about the actual timing of when Premium accounts get what, but if so, you'll have to talk about Premium accounts. Because if you say "Free players should have access to X" then you're saying "we want to give away X for free to anyone who wants to download the game". Which is a much stronger statement than "People who used to play the game should get their X back". You might have people disagree with the former who wouldn't disagree with the latter.
Character index
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Nearly...|
Originally Posted by Manoa
No, the point is to generate revenue from new players and returning players. It doesn't matter whether that revenue comes from subscriptions or microtransactions. The game already had free trials and free reactivation weekends to get folks to feel the "undying, STRONG urge to re-sub or sub for the first time." If these were doing the trick, they wouldn't be adding a F2P/microtransaction element.
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The point of Freedom (and the game as a whole) is to generate revenue. Freedom ultimately is the freedom for the devs to charge for things that prior to this point they didn't charge for in any systematic way. As such yes of course they want new players to subscribe and for returning players to subscribe. But ultimately they want people to spend money. Providing a hybrid payment system means that there is a price point for everyone. You can spend as much or as little as you want and still have some access.
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Originally Posted by Manoa
I personally am not arguing for returning free players to have the same exact experience as a VIP player. There should be something pay-for that returning free players should be chasing after.
And returning players don't have the expectation to have everything the VIPers do. They don't expect access to the new content, they don't expect access to the incarnate stuff, etc. That's all new stuff and they know they're not going to get it without paying for it. |
Perhaps instead of just adding a returning players model (option #4 IIRC) (see her blog for more info). We ought to add a model for players who haven't been away long. And maybe one for those who have been away since before inventions who won't need IOs even though they're returning players.
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Originally Posted by Manoa
What returning free players expect (what they view as) a fully functioning game and access to their characters (loot 'n all). It's all old content...why shouldn't they have access to it if they've invested something into the game?
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Originally Posted by Manoa
Keep the returning free players chasing after the new shinies instead of forcing them to fill in the gaps in their old play experience, I'll bet you'll be able to capture more revenue from this segment of the playerbase.
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It's aimed at everyone; returning players, new players and current subscribers.|
Originally Posted by Manoa
Then who is the system aimed at?
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Originally Posted by Manoa
It certainly isn't aimed at VIP players.
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Originally Posted by Manoa
they do so because they think they can generate more revenue by adding the
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Originally Posted by Manoa
microtransaction element than what they're currently achieving with their original 100% subscription.
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Originally Posted by Manoa
And I suspect it's...
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Originally Posted by Manoa
To me, the primary demographic that this new model is targeted at is former subscribers.
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Why suddenly will people who previously left the game suddenly want to return? And to make this clear before any micro transaction payment can be extracted they have to come back to the game. Do you have evidence of these huge numbers of returning players desperate to get back into the game (providing of course they don't have to pay)?
I know quite a number of people who have quit the game I suspect everyone does, some left because they became bored (I did several times), some left due to game changing features. MA, ED, CoV, PvP & Ultra... ect. Some will of course have left because they couldn't afford to play. But still I wonder how many have been sitting at home in the interim waiting to play CoH just as soon as it became free to play.
Of the people I personally know (not a huge amount) most aren't going to come back, some have moved on to other games (WoW notably), some have moved on in life - mostly starting college or families and haven't the time. Some have even stopped gaming entirely or just on the PC.[/quote]
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Originally Posted by Manoa
This is a move to generate more revenue (whether microtrans or subscription reups) from this particular demographic. This is the player demographic who is far more likely to add money into the game (compared to their new F2P counterparts)...but you have to recognize the reasons theyre coming back and the stuff they would be interested in purchasing. If incentivized properly, theyll likely willing to purchase new content and/or look at a subscription to try out the new shinys. But they know what it feels like to have a full game experience and not going to be incentivized to pay money for old content or to get the game working as they remember it.
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Originally Posted by Manoa
A successful F2P model breaks down the barriers of entry and imbeds the pay-for stuff later into the play experience (you know, after the player is hooked and wants more). The current model doesnt do a very good job of this for returning players because it breaks the free illusion upon character creation/selection by having their IOs greyed out.
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The current model is not brilliant. DDO for instance IMO is better in many ways. But so much of the DDO content is locked behind the payment barrier that as a premium (and I was for several months) it was all but impossible to get a group going for premium content because most of the players wanted to play free content over and over and over again.
I never played LotRO because I'm not a huge fan of the films, but I understand it runs with a similar subscription model.
So you have a choice really. Either the devs can provide a fully realised combat system for everyone but gate the content. Or they can gate the playing system and provide the content. And I know if I try a game out I will happily pay for more things to do eg a new class, but if I have to buy all the content I stop playing. Hence why I'm back in CoH having given up on my monk (DDO) who I had fun on but no content to do.
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Other than the crunchy bits that we have confirmed, there's not exactly a whole lot of facts in this thread. It's mostly all feedback based on opinion (humble and not so humble), observations, speculation and (in some cases) hyperbole. And this is the case on both the pro and con side of the argument.|
Originally Posted by Lost Ninja
And I suspect you cannot back this up with any facts.
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My thoughts are my own humble opinions based on what I am seeing and speculating...and I'm including in this thread for feedback purposes and the developers and community relations folks can do with them as they will. You can agree or disagree...that's perfectly fine. You're going to change my opinion on the matter and I'm very likely not going to change yours.
It's healthy to have these sorts of debates so the developers can view the feedback that arises from them and make note. But to poke holes in a opinion/observational post by asking for solid factual evidence in a feedback thread that comprises almost entirely of observations and speculation from all sides? Not exactly constructive debate.
I would continue the healthy portion of the debate by offering some counterpoints, but I have to get back to work. I may be back to add more feedback and counterpoints later after work (well, depending on how the course of this thread proceeds).
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Thanks for harping on Manoa for guessing on what NCSoft's goals are, and then guessing on what NCSoft's goals are. Brilliant! It's the battle of guesswork and empirical data!
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Originally Posted by Lost Ninja
I'll bet they won't... But then what NCSoft has to do is base it's decisions on fact not on bets. You seem to think that this whole thing is hastily put together and without studying either the overall MMO market or their own player base. In any business when you are trying to implement something as wide ranging and potentially game (pun unintended) changing as this you do so with eyes wide open with all your facts to hand.
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FIGHT!
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Originally Posted by Obsidius
It's the battle of guesswork and empirical data!
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Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."
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That's not what I got from his post. What I got is that NCSOFT/PS have done the research on various models, and thus based their decisions on what to gate behind that research.|
Originally Posted by Obsidius
Thanks for harping on Manoa for guessing on what NCSoft's goals are, and then guessing on what NCSoft's goals are. Brilliant! It's the battle of guesswork and empirical data!
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There's no guessing in knowing that. They've come out and flat out told us they did.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
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To be fair about it, crafting and the auction house in LOTRO is a very integral part of the game. It was included in the original design and the players are pointed to the crafting houses at level 5. And you are introduced to the Auction House (If you even need an introduction by that point) by the quest that takes you on a tour of Bree when you reach it.|
Originally Posted by Suzumebachi
I play two MMOs. City of Heroes is my sub game and LotRO is my free game for when I need a break from CoH. I like LotRO but I only have budget for one subscription game at a time so when I do play I might pay out a few dollars for the next piece of content I want to play.
Looking at what CoH is offering does not compare favourably. As a newbie to LotRO I had access to tells, server-wide player made chat channels, the majority of the crafting system and could buy items from the auction house. I could theoretically (if I put enough time in) unlock the entire content of the game by earning Turbine Points just through playing the game. As it is I have bought points, although 2/3 of the points I've spent in the store have been earned rather than purchased. |
That is a very far cry from the Invention system and the AH in CoH. They weren't added to the game until Issue 9, three years after launch. While useful and fun they are not necessary parts of the game in the same way. Having them behind a license fee is not that big of a deal.
The only real differences between the markets in the 2 games are the chat channel availability and the ability to get points in game to buy stuff. And all someone needs to do is spend $5 to get: Ablity to join Supergroups, Access to Tell, Supergroup, and Coalition Communication Channels, Mail System Access, Player-to-Player Trading, Increased Inf cap of 500 million per character, Play stories within the Mission Architect (no rewards).
But there is also no equivalent of the Paragon Reward Token system in LOTRO. Buy 1200 points, you get get this. Another 1200, you get more. And it adds up until you don't need to spend anymore to have almost the entire game available for no more money. You spend $15 for Turbine Points, all you get is the points.
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Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
7 years is a long time to go without isn't it?
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Justice Blues, Tech/Tank, Inv/SS
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Fighting The Future Trilogy
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Got it. OK everyone, that settles it! We can now end this debate and rest any qualms we have with this system knowing full well that any objections and negative observations have been fully nullified by NCSoft's thorough market research |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
That's not what I got from his post. What I got is that NCSOFT/PS have done the research on various models, and thus based their decisions on what to gate behind that research.
There's no guessing in knowing that. They've come out and flat out told us they did. |
Debate over!
TBH, IMPO, etc., etc., The Paragon Reward system is appealing towards new players, but leaves something to be desired for returning vets. It gives an edge vs that other MMO, but I'm not sure how much pull it's going ot have towards bringing former subscribers back, especially if they din't already invest X amount of time into the game previously just so they can use /tell when they return to Freedom.*
I know it wasn't Aura's intent to say that NCSoft's market research nullifies any qualms we have about the system, but they way I read Lost Ninja's post, well, it's a poor rebuttal to Manoa's argument. I kinda feel the same way as Manoa does, personally.
* Edit: what reward tier allows access to /tells? I don't know. But if I'm a new player, the first thing I want to do is look at a big spreadsheet to see what sort of things I can and can't do 
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The saaarrrrcasm is strong in this one.|
Originally Posted by Obsidius
Got it. OK everyone, that settles it! We can now end this debate and rest any qualms we have with this system knowing full well that any objections and negative observations have been fully nullified by NCSoft's thorough market research
Debate over! |
I find it funny that everything you just posted has nothing to do with what I said.
But the sarcasm was fun though.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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A returning player who doesn't subscribe gets more than someone who is trying to play for free. They SHOULD NOT get anywhere near what a VIP has access to.
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Originally Posted by Obsidius
TBH, IMPO, etc., etc., The Paragon Reward system is appealing towards new players, but leaves something to be desired for returning vets. It gives an edge vs that other MMO, but I'm not sure how much pull it's going ot have towards bringing former subscribers back, especially if they din't already invest X amount of time into the game previously just so they can use /tell when they return to Freedom.
I know it wasn't Aura's intent to say that NCSoft's market research nullifies any qualms we have about the system, but they way I read Lost Ninja's post, well, it's a poor rebuttal to Manoa's argument. I kinda feel the same way as Manoa does, personally. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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That's a great argument with some very fair points. (^^)=b
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
A returning player who doesn't subscribe gets more than someone who is trying to play for free. They SHOULD NOT get anywhere near what a VIP has access to. I think that the options they are giving us are better than that other game.
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Again with the mythical returning former new Free player, who shifts between being a vet who would like to check out the game again to a complete newbie depending on what the argument requires.
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Originally Posted by Obsidius
TBH, IMPO, etc., etc., The Paragon Reward system is appealing towards new players, but leaves something to be desired for returning vets. It gives an edge vs that other MMO, but I'm not sure how much pull it's going ot have towards bringing former subscribers back, especially if they din't already invest X amount of time into the game previously just so they can use /tell when they return to Freedom.*
* Edit: what reward tier allows access to /tells? I don't know. But if I'm a new player, the first thing I want to do is look at a big spreadsheet to see what sort of things I can and can't do |
Character index
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Not to mention the fact that all it takes is one tier to get tells, so any returning premium player who bought even 1 box in the past has access to it from the start.
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Originally Posted by Silver Gale
Again with the mythical returning former new Free player, who shifts between being a vet who would like to check out the game again to a complete newbie depending on what the argument requires.
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Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
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Alright, it's time for me to put my serious face on |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Right, but my point was that things like what is and isn't offerred in that other game are PRECISELY the kinds of things PS looked at when deciding options for Freedom.
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Part of the problem is that the uninitiated have to do a bit of research in order to understand a direct comparison between CoH: Freedom and other games. As can be seen above, I can't even allude to other games. It's against the forum policy. So new players who want to have a true understanding as to why CoH: Freedoms system is better than someone else's will have to do a lot of research on their own. Digging through feature matrices, spreadsheets, comparing web pages, etc.
Marketing may have already done plenty of research, but are they doing a good enough job of stating that their Paragon Rewards system is superior to similar MMOs in the genre? On the Freedom page they do a fine job of comparing it against the current Vet Rewards system, which means nothing to a new player shopping around. It's a tricky avenue for Marketing, but even just stating that the Paragon Rewards system is a unique system to City of Heroes for permanently unlocking game features for Premium and VIP players alike would help emphasize it's importance without having to do a direct comparison to competing MMOs.
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Bit late on this Tony but I believe that the $2 is a monthly fee for IO's. And I think the Auction House is the same. You 'rent' the use really.
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Originally Posted by TonyV
This is almost (note: almost) directly contradictory. You're saying that someone is unwilling to the point of having a "sour taste" to pony up a measly one-time fee of $2 to get access to what they consider an essential part of the game they used to pay $15 per month to access, yet if that one impediment were removed, they would come back and spend even more than that.
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Here the problem: We've been playing this game for years. We've seen the features locked behind VIP status or later tiers added and become integral parts of the game.|
Originally Posted by Obsidius
Part of the problem is that the uninitiated have to do a bit of research in order to understand a direct comparison between CoH: Freedom and other games. As can be seen above, I can't even allude to other games. It's against the forum policy. So new players who want to have a true understanding as to why CoH: Freedoms system is better than someone else's will have to do a lot of research on their own. Digging through feature matrices, spreadsheets, comparing web pages, etc.
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New players? Haven't. They would most likely download the game after hearing it's now free from Kotaku or Destructoid and launch in and start fighting some Skuls or Shivans. Free players, especially those who want to solo, most likely will not come across anything that needs to be paid for for quite a while. Teams of new players trying the game at the same time should have no problem organizing on AIM or Ventrilo or Teamspeak. And, if they like it, they are very likely to just upgrade to Premium or hop on Amazon to buy a 1.57 copy of the Architect addition.
New players are going to be busy with learning the absolute basics of the game. By the time they discover they might need Inventions or would like to try out AE, they are past the point of trying to entice someone to try the game and are most likely already committed to buying it.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
I think a fair compromise for the IO going away would be for slotted IOs, the base numbers stay active, but set bonuses, procs, the stuff that you don't get from SOs, DOs, and TOs, don't apply unless they have the IO license. To get them, they need the unlocks to buy from an auction house, get them in drops, or craft or whatever, so they can't add new ones basically unless they pay for.
Returning players will still have most of the enhancement from their existing IOs and their character should still be playable. New players won't have access to them unless they pay for them. I think it would be a good middle ground to not screw over returning players with fully IO'd out builds, but still have the carrot dangling for them to subscribe or pay for the access.
I know for a lot of us, it might be hard to do so, but try to remember your first few days in City of Heroes.
I started playing because my brother bought the game. I knew nothing about it or MMOs in general. I actually played it at first to mock him a bit, because I did know about the "EverCrack" negative stereotype.
For the first week I played I solo'd pretty much everything with only a sewer team here or there to wipe us out completely and get debt. I didn't know you can have more than 1 power pool. I thought Hover was as fast as you are allowed to fly. I thought blasters were supposed to fight in melee.
Now, all these years later, I have learned my lesson.... almost. I still fight in melee with blasters.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
It certainly isn't aimed at VIP players. If COH subs were generating enough revenue to keep the investors happy and the game running, they wouldn't be adding microtransaction into the picture. An established subscription MMO doesn't add a free-to-play element (whatever the flavor, full F2P or hybrid F2) out of the generosity of their hearts...they do so because they think they can generate more revenue by adding the F2P/microtransaction element than what they're currently achieving with their original 100% subscription.
And I suspect it's not all that aimed at brand spankin' new F2P players. The bottom-tier accounts are pretty much trial accounts without any sort of time limit. But if trial accounts were were doing the trick in generating needed revenues, they wouldn't be adding any sort of F2P element.
To me, the primary demographic that this new model is targeted at is former subscribers. This is a move to generate more revenue (whether microtrans or subscription reups) from this particular demographic. This is the player demographic who is far more likely to add money into the game (compared to their new F2P counterparts)...but you have to recognize the reasons theyre coming back and the stuff they would be interested in purchasing. If incentivized properly, theyll likely willing to purchase new content and/or look at a subscription to try out the new shinys. But they know what it feels like to have a full game experience and not going to be incentivized to pay money for old content or to get the game working as they remember it.
VIP: no loss and no sub increase but can buy new stuff that otherwise would not be available like the xp boosts or costume pieces, etc.
Premium:
A) former subscribers: Somewhat limited access to limited characters or for small payments much less than the subscription total access for a limited number of characters.
B) Freepers who buy something: more experience of the game at far less than paying for all of it.
Freepers: Can experience most of the powers and ATs for free.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.