Restarting a civ...


2short2care

 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Shouldn't you have scratched that with picture writing on stones and then thrown them through our windows rather than using the internet?
No. The OP's question was about us using our current real life knowledge. How we got that level of knowledge isn't relevant to the question.


 

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Originally Posted by TrueMetal View Post
Yes, damn antibiotics and indoor plumbing! Not to mention art and music! Worst things ever!
Antibiotics have been around for thousands of years, and a recent discovery in China reveals the existance of a Han Dynasty latrine relic used in 206 BC was found equipped with running water supply, an armrest, and a stone bowl. It was something similar to what is commonly used today.

And civilization doesn't create art and music, gifted individuals do.

So you don't need a modern civilization for any of those things you mentioned.


 

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Originally Posted by ObiWan View Post
6 out of 10, 15th century. Not too bad. Except for that whole Spanish Inquisition thing.
I got 7 out of 10 but I think at least 1 was a lucky guess.


 

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Originally Posted by Hero_of_Steel View Post
Ok everyone, a quiz that asks, How far can you jumpstart technology?

http://theuniverseas.com/how-useful-...echnology-quiz





And a cheat sheet.

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8208/timetechlg.jpg
I got 7/10, so not too bad.

Of course, let's face facts, if I somehow found myself in charge of re-building society I'm pretty sure my laborers/workers would kill me rather than face what sort of society I'd likely build.


My mind wanders so often you've probably seen its picture on milk cartons. - Me... the first person version of the third person Steelclaw

 

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Originally Posted by Durakken View Post
I'm curious how much of modern civilization do you think you could reintroduce if you were to suddenly find your self in a world where you had to use your own knowledge to re-build civilization, but you had all the laborers and such you needed.
What kinda crazy scenario puts ME in charge of rebuilding society? And why would ANYONE want to rebuild civilization exactly as it is now? What would be the point?

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Do you think that you would be able to successfully remake cities that work and are well laid out, lighting, engines, electricity, get water, dispose of waste, farm food and transport it to where it needs to be, create an economic system, military, etc that would work and how close do you think you could get to a modern city using just your knowledge?
No. And I don't believe that ANY one person could do this either. Civilization forms organically over time due to the infuluence of MANY people. No one person could do that and have it feel like any kind of actual society.



 

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Originally Posted by Hero_of_Steel View Post
Ok everyone, a quiz that asks, How far can you jumpstart technology?
http://theuniverseas.com/how-useful-...echnology-quiz
8/10. But have completely the wrong skill set and personality for anything that involves being "in charge".


 

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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven View Post
What kinda crazy scenario puts ME in charge of rebuilding society? And why would ANYONE want to rebuild civilization exactly as it is now? What would be the point?


No. And I don't believe that ANY one person could do this either. Civilization forms organically over time due to the infuluence of MANY people. No one person could do that and have it feel like any kind of actual society.
You have a point. If you could rebuild society, you'd know such things as technology equals less work and thus more people jobless, and could (untill you died) try to keep it clear from such a trapping.


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Posted

All I could really do is introduce the absolute importance of cleanliness - make sure the people around me boiled their drinking water, used outhouses instead of just dumping household waste out the window, etc. The rest of my skillset - accounting and technical support - wouldn't do a lot of good. My infantry training would be ok for not running around in despair and then dying because I didn't know how to hunt, clean game, forage, or make a shelter - that just puts me on more of an even footing with ancient (read: last century) man than above him.

But depending on how far back things had slipped/I time travelled introducing 'duh' things, like the cleanliness, basic first aid, and the importance of education, could increase the quality of life significantly.


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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
You have a point. If you could rebuild society, you'd know such things as technology equals less work and thus more people jobless, and could (untill you died) try to keep it clear from such a trapping.
If advances in technology meant increasing unemployment, then we'd be at 99% unemployment right now because technology has been steadily advancing for the past 300 years. The current high unemployment levels that we see have nothing to do with a major tech advance, it was caused by economic manipulations.

Tech advances do indeed mean some jobs become obsolete, but they just as much open up new areas of employment.

Rather than structure our hypothetical New Society on low tech to ensure that certain jobs are never made obsolete, we'd be better off investing in vocational schools that teach people how to work in the newly created professions that technological advances create.


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Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
Rather than structure our hypothetical New Society on low tech to ensure that certain jobs are never made obsolete, we'd be better off investing in vocational schools that teach people how to work in the newly created professions that technological advances create.
Only problem with that is that corporations would rather outsource those jobs to countries where they can pay 5 cents an hour.


 

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Okay, so I've put a little thought into this one and come up with a problem.

The problem being: expected lifespan.

Even if I had more actual, usable technological knowledge than I do now I would still only have a short period of time to give it over to my laborers. At the age of 42, with no modern medical facilities or care, with less-than-modern housing and food production, I could feasibly see living to my mid 60's. So I have roughly 20 years to teach and direct my minions so they can continue along after my death.

Now, if I were immortal there would be no problem. I'd take it slow and guide my people along gently generation by generation.

But I'm not immortal... so I am left with a decision to make. I think that, ultimately, my decision would be not to teach them ANY technology whatsoever.

Here's my rationale: I have studied martial arts (tae kwon do, shotokan karate, aiki jui'jutsu, judo and Marine Corps self defense) for 20 years now. I am quite capable of killing a man with my bare hands, but it took me a LONG time to learn those skills. During that learning process my instructors also trained me on WHEN to use my training. The morality of martial arts was drilled into me right along with the combat training. I know how to kick someone but at the same time I know what it's like to be on the receiving end of a kick.

Now, let's say someone found a loaded gun laying on the street. They have no training. They have no discipline with regards to finding peaceful solutions other than shooting someone. With my martial arts training I can restrain someone as easily as I can take them out. With a gun there is no such middle ground; the best option is "Shoot to wound" rather than to kill. The person picking up the gun has instant power. No cost to get it. No learning curve to earn it.

My minions would be in the exact same boat. If I just taught them how to make black powder and use it... If I instructed them on assembly lines and mass production princibles.. Then I am giving them power without any guidelines. When I am gone they would take my black powder and create bullets and bombs with it. When I am no longer there they build factories without thought to environmental impact because they had not learned those lessons.

So, what do I do?

Instead of giving them technology I give them basic survival skills like hunting, farming, irrigation, home building and community. I will give them culture to hold their communities together so they celebrate their neighbor rather than envy them. I will teach them a deep respect for the environment and the world around them. I will do my best to make them think "community and planet first... personal wealth and advantage second..."

That way, when they eventually discover these technological advantages themselves, they might be better prepared to share that knowledge rather than horde it and become devisive from the withholding. Perhaps they will think of the environmental impact of progress and adjust accordingly before they rush into "advancement" without proper forethought.

So, I guess I automatically fail the "restarting a civilization" test. Since, at least on a technological basis, I wouldn't give them a blessed thing.


My mind wanders so often you've probably seen its picture on milk cartons. - Me... the first person version of the third person Steelclaw

 

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Start the world over you say?

Hoo hoo... your looking at the number one despot on the planet! I'd make Alexander the Great, Ghengis Khan, Ceaser and all the rest footnotes in history.



------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------

 

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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
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Originally Posted by Unknown_User
I think there are aspects of civilization that are dangerous to the world. If I were to restart and rebuild a modern civilization I would control those aspects with an iron hand.
... because that's always worked in the past.
You meaning liberating people from the burden of choice isn't what they want? How could this be that people really do want the pressures of having to pick all 31 flavors themselves? How could megatron and Tyrant possibly be wrong on this? I'm absolutely shocked. I guess I'll have rethink my agenda to make the world into a giant despot.



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Posted

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Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
If advances in technology meant increasing unemployment, then we'd be at 99% unemployment right now because technology has been steadily advancing for the past 300 years. The current high unemployment levels that we see have nothing to do with a major tech advance, it was caused by economic manipulations.

Tech advances do indeed mean some jobs become obsolete, but they just as much open up new areas of employment.

Rather than structure our hypothetical New Society on low tech to ensure that certain jobs are never made obsolete, we'd be better off investing in vocational schools that teach people how to work in the newly created professions that technological advances create.
Well I'd say some of the bigger advancements happened recently. And with current trends (at least in the US) of lay people off, work with less people, find out you can work with less people, then not hiring people back when things are going good again, shows more tech equals less jobs. Yes, new jobs are created, but less people are needed to fullfill them.


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Originally Posted by Lastjustice View Post
You meaning liberating people from the burden of choice isn't what they want? How could this be that people really do want the pressures of having to pick all 31 flavors themselves? How could megatron and Tyrant possibly be wrong on this? I'm absolutely shocked. I guess I'll have rethink my agenda to make the world into a giant despot.
Of course it's what they want. That's why they've been flocking to religions for thousands of years. Giving up the "burden" of choice liberates them from responsibility. "It's God's Will." Those that can't bring themselves to stomach religion turn and do the same thing with Government. "Ya can't fight City Hall."

People want to be sheep.


 

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Originally Posted by ebon3 View Post
Start the world over you say?

Hoo hoo... your looking at the number one despot on the planet! I'd make Alexander the Great, Ghengis Khan, Ceaser and all the rest footnotes in history.
Seriously if my 'world stratergy' games are anything to go by, I would be a terrible, terrible person.

Seriously I've shipped armies of knights, peasants and who knows what else over to France because they snubbed me when I asked for an alliance against the Holy Roman Empire who were poised to take over ze world! I tried to obliterate the Papal states because the Pope kept asking me to go on Crusades (which I couldn't afford to spare the man-power to send off to die battering against the walls of Jerusalem) and then proceeded to Excommunicate me.

I've nuked Ghandi because I know he's going to do it to me first if I don't (seriously screw you Ghandi!).

I would be a terrible...terrible person to lead a real world civilization.


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Originally Posted by Lord_Nightblade View Post
9/10

I missed the engine diagram one.
10 out of 10. Seems to be a tricky one. The distinguishing characteristic of a steam engine relative to a gasoline engine or a diesel engine would be the lack of a spark plug or igniter for the fuel charge. With just a piston and a valve and no source of ignition that has to be a steam engine.

The wording of the last question almost threw me. I think its supposed to read "What is used to bring the melting point of Aluminum Oxide down to an economical temperature for making Aluminum. I honestly got that one by process of elimination: carbon isn't typically used in aluminum refining at all and bauxite is essentially aluminum oxide itself.


As to restarting "civilization" assuming there was no language barrier and an essentially unlimited and willing workforce, civilization starts with agriculture. That's probably my weak suit: I'm not a farmer or a horticulturist. But I suppose I could get it up and running soon enough.

I'm presuming I don't have to figure out how to live for the few thousand years it would take to domesticate animals.

Starting from, say, near-bronze age technology, I could probably eventually get to iron age and steel manufacture, although that would take years, possibly decades to gear up on an industrial scale. And part of the problem is knowing how to find the materials, not just knowing how to process them: I'm not a field geologist either.

Put me at the time of, say, Archimedes, and I could probably get to steam technology in my lifetime. Drop me into Leonardo Da Vinci's lab, and I have a shot at getting to the 1950's if I live long enough.


As others have pointed out, though, generating the technological trappings of civilization is not the same thing as reproducing a functional culture around those tools.


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Originally Posted by DLancer View Post
Given that the entirety of my experience in managing a civilization comes from playing Civ IV and Civ V well into the wee hours of the morning, I'd say pretty confidently that I could dominate the planet within 3 weeks, given that Ghandi doesn't try to nuke me and the Iriquois don't invent tanks too fast.
(emphasis mine)

Are you SURE that says what you want it to say?


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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike View Post
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
Of course it's what they want. That's why they've been flocking to religions for thousands of years. Giving up the "burden" of choice liberates them from responsibility. "It's God's Will." Those that can't bring themselves to stomach religion turn and do the same thing with Government. "Ya can't fight City Hall."

People want to be sheep.
You're just a ray of sunshine on all fronts when comes to humans heh.



I got 7 of 10 on the test, but I have enough general knowledge of things, and enough leadership skills I think could do pretty well.



- Justice
Lastjustice- lvl 50 defender
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- Freedom
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Beware:NERDS ARE THE WORST FANS!!

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
10 out of 10. Seems to be a tricky one. The distinguishing characteristic of a steam engine relative to a gasoline engine or a diesel engine would be the lack of a spark plug or igniter for the fuel charge. With just a piston and a valve and no source of ignition that has to be a steam engine.
Yeah, once I knew the correct answer, the diagram became much more obvious. Not that I would be able to actually build a steam engine, or at least not one more complex than an aeolipile.


Goodbye, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Nightblade View Post
Yeah, once I knew the correct answer, the diagram became much more obvious. Not that I would be able to actually build a steam engine, or at least not one more complex than an aeolipile.
I've studied steam engines so I could easily reproduce their basic designs. However, even during the age of steam they did have a tendency to explode on occasion, so I would probably build them rather far away from my workshop most of the time.

I've thought about this some more, and I think one thing worth considering is that its probably inefficient to reproduce either the path or the current state of technology. With the benefit of hindsight, there are paths to higher technology that leapfrog certain problems and incur other problems that would be more annoying today or in our history, but might be easier to overcome back then.

For example, I could probably design and build a hydroelectric dam easier than reinventing the entire industrial revolution to get to electricity. I bet I could probably reinvent the radio by jumping straight to bulk physics than reinventing the vacuum tube (it would be huge, though). I wonder what the minimum steps are required to reinvent the microprocessor. Photolithography, advanced chemistry, high temperature foundry. Not sure about reinventing wafer saws and polishers. That's probably my weak link there.


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Posted

Most of us are so used to modern urban life that any attempt to introduce new ideas into a primitive people would be so abstract that they probably would not remain. What do we know about survival? Pre-historical people would care about discovering efficient tools and materials for general use, and more importantly, the introduction of farming techniques. Can you do that? Farming is what made people first settle down. No one will care about your civilizing plight if you can't keep their stomachs full with little effort and risk. The discovery of bronze changed the world for good and iron changed it once more. Do you know how to use and obtain such metals? It really seems almost irrelevant when we are surrounded by everything that we need to live comfortably.

Anyways, Gandhi is not the problem, Montezuma is.