Trial leadership .. what is going on!
Agree to a point. But point 1 has nothing to do with being a leader before. If someone advertising they are forming for one thing that should be the thing they run. Deciding to be cute and change your mind at the last second is wasting everyone's time and is an idiotic jerk move. If you want to run Keyes SAY SO ahead of time so for folks can decide for themselves.
Quitting a team where the leader suddenly changes the activity isn't bad, as you may not have time for the new activity. |
Then you're really not in a position to say anything, regardless of your excuses.
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If a leader does a poor job, then of course, anyone on that team is in a position to comment on it.
Then you're really not in a position to say anything, regardless of your excuses.
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If you did, nobody BUT politicians and former politicians could say anything about the government, only police and former police could say beating up a helpless suspect is wrong and only chefs could say a burned meal is bad cooking.
While those who are not trained in a field may not know every finite detail required to work in the criticized field, and sometimes knowing some of those details can explain how some things are done, one can see where errors are made when they're glaringly obvious.
An example would be the leader of one BAF I was on. He was micromanaging everyone to the point of ludicrous. When fighting Nightstar, she was pulled to the court like he asked. That's fine, it's one of the usual spots to fight her.
But he insisted that she be pulled to a specific SPOT on the court. And I don't mean 'close to the edge Siege is pulled from' kind, I mean 'Get her on the exact corner of the court and grass!' and when she was some 20 feet away from it his requested corner? "STOP ATTACKING! She's NOT on the corner yet! Pull her closer! She needs to be STANDING ON THE CORNER"
And then he wondered why people stopped following his orders.
I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
Re: 3), I prefer to rearrange teams while inside the trial map because any closed league loading into a trial gets teams scrambled, and any open league loading into a trial gets scrambled too if at least 1 player joins from the LFG queue.
That in and of itself is an Appeal to Accomplishment fallacy. You don't need to be skilled or active in a field to criticize someone's actions in that field.
If you did, nobody BUT politicians and former politicians could say anything about the government, only police and former police could say beating up a helpless suspect is wrong and only chefs could say a burned meal is bad cooking. While those who are not trained in a field may not know every finite detail required to work in the criticized field, and sometimes knowing some of those details can explain how some things are done, one can see where errors are made when they're glaringly obvious. |
Meaningful Critique comes in several forms:
1) when given to the person committing the error by the people under them for the intention of improving the situation- This ain't that. The OP shows a profound tendency to bail at minor provocations instead of trying to communicate and sort it out to everyone's advantage. Coming here to complain doesn't help anyone.
2) when given to others to serve as a recommendation/warning- the pundit/critic scenario. The premise behind this is often, were I in that position, I'd do it differently. This ain't that either, for the reasons I said above. I'm not trying to invalidate their feelings, I'm pointing out that venting them here to us is meaningless and will accomplish zero towards improving the problems they hate.
They have several options available to them to solve all of these issues. The most convenient of which is leading their own trials their own preferred way. Instead, we get a paragraph of excuses whose only purpose is to justify them tearing down other people.
This is in no way shape or form the starting point of a helpful dialogue. It's flamebait and needs to be treated as such, not defended.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
My only advice is to go and talk to the people who have very successfully done Mothership Raids to the point of making them feel like a tourst run, and I mean that in the most positive sense. Virtue has Mothership Mondays, and I did a bunch of them when Vanguard costume parts still could be earned with Merits.
Not only did the experienced leaders have their instructions macro'd and concisely directed at the Request channel so everyone could see without distraction, they also were incredibly gracious and welcoming (a welcome message also being macro'd and showing a ton of class) and were able to answer any question that came along.
At this point on Virtue, I've only seen one or two people I'd trust on Trials (Paladin from Virtue being one of them) and these are the people you want. We've been so very good in this game in offering the helping hand to those learning the game or experiencing TF's or the like, we could do worse in bringing that same level of courtesy, professionalism and fun to Trials.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
lets just say, i tried my hand at leading a league this weekend, the other members helped a lot with their patience, but particularly in the set-up stage, things get a great deal more hectic than you would think. people are switching and you dont want to leave them behind, you dont know if the new person sending you a tell is that person back again or someone else , the bars look pretty similar between 7 and 8 members at a glance and once you establish that you are leading, you get absolutely swamped with more requests than you can take, including pairs of people who you dont want to upset by splitting. like i said, the people on lib were patient, good humored and everything went off well, but a non-patient crowd that likes to make personal insult threads on the forums, i can see why people would say screw it. ,so maybe these new leaders, particularly ones that havent dont it often, could get some slack. People that put themselves out there to lead these things basically set themselves up to be sniped, one starred about and treated badly by people who will never themselves take the responsibility. I really do have to agree with lemur that if you think leaders are so bad, lead a few and tell us how easy it is.
Until you lead a successful league, that avoids all the issues you present, you don't have much of a platform to ***** from.
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When something genuinely sucks, you can easily and correctly recognize that even if you can't do better.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Your first 2 examples sound more or less like poor leadership, but this third example stood out to me for a few reasons.
3. Today a group of us were standing around and someone said "Okay since no one else wants to I'll form a Lambda and we can do the BAF afterwards.. Sounded perfect until the teams formed. Team one, the leader's team btw, was nothing but brutes, tankers and scrappers. Team 2, the one I was placed on, was nothing but blasters, an MM, a corruptor, one tank and one SoA. In short team 2 was going to spend a LOT of time face down on the floor in phase two.
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Originally Posted by Wicked Wendy
I figured after he was done recruiting the leader would juggle but NO and not only that he announce that team 1 would be doing acids and 2 would get grenades. Acids always seems to be a little easier than the grenades .. less lag and a simpler route. Then this idiot actually q'd us up.. I was assuming all the time he was joking but he actually intended to run the league that way.
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Originally Posted by Wicked Wendy
I decline the q and quit. Now I don't give a crap if I hunt acids or grenades I have done enough trials to have both routes memorized but DO NOT put together a team that has failure written all over it and expect me to hang around so you can giggle at my frustration.
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It is understandable that you became frustrated after having multiple bad experiences. Your third example has a 'last customer of the day' tone to it, where you're tired of dealing with people and just want to go home. Sometimes it can be challenging to not let our past experiences dictate our assumptions, forcing us into hasty decisions. However, consider this: even though some leaders may be incompetent or inexperienced, the vast majority form trials with the intent of being successful. Their methods may be ineffective or misguided, but I find it hard to believe your league leader deliberately sabotaged your team so that you'd constantly die and not be able to collect the temps. At the end of the day, we all want to get our Astral/Empyrean merits and be on our way. Sometimes leaders need pointers on how to make that happen.
Others have suggested you try leadership for yourself. I also support this suggestion. Not because I think you don't have a right to criticize leaders without having direct experience, but because I think the steps you take should ultimately improve your situation. That may involve leading trials, but that could also involve making suggestions and giving constructive feedback during trials if necessary. Regardless of what you choose to do, in the future I would at least try to exhaust all reasonable options to help improve a trial before quitting.
![](http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h7/Amygdala27/sigglow-1.png)
Leader of Renaissance de la Veritas
Moderator of ChampioNexus
Amygdala's Guide to the Cathedral of Pain Trial
I think my husband was on that run. He was so bummed. The controller just quit without saying anything and they only had his Dark hold... it was sad.
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Oh and the blaster had bunch of suggestions for how we could get the mitos without a hold:
-Fill our insp. trays with reds to cap damage and overpower the regen.
-Craft a bunch of Stun Grenades and use.
-Get a HVAS to help (except I had the thing and died after about a minute of having it)
Needless to say nothing worked and the lead just said to abandon ship.
50Soulsunder: DM/Regen Scrapper
50Limitshift: EM/WP Brute
Victoria Nox: Dark/Dark Dominator
And about 5 others that change constantly...
I have run my share of BAF/LAM and I agree with Rian. Its an extra burden for the trial leader.
When I run I give fairly minimal orders as I dislike micro-management. I treat all of the players as professionals and I am not running the league to babysit. By not micro-managing my trials take a little longer but they do complete just fine. BAF the only orders are where to pull the AVs, where to locate on the prisoner step and the keep Siege and NS heath close to even. For LAM its who goes to lab/warehouse and how many doors to leave open.
Doorsitters and hospital sitters get one stared, noted and kicked. Cutscene bombers get one stared and noted.
Running them isn't hard, just an extra burden and some nights I don't want to run them.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
I think my husband was on that run. He was so bummed. The controller just quit without saying anything and they only had his Dark hold... it was sad.
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![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
Anyway, I've had some so-so, and bad, League experiences. When I find myself complaining about it, I always end it with "At least they had the drive to form it in the first place".
The worst to me are the ones who don't lead and just assume everyone knows the drill. If I'm not getting enough leadership, I ask "Which Team goes to which area?" or "We leaving doors open? Who are we giving Pacification Grenades to?". If I don't get a response, I generally hope for the best, and just bow out of the next one, if there is one, afterward.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
I think your prediction here may very well have been inaccurate. I have seen many support/non melee characters that dominate the temps phase of the trial, whereas some melee struggle. Level shifts and Destiny buffs go a long way as well. Teams that stick together also have an easier time collecting temps. I can't count how many times I've seen a +3 melee run off to solo the temps and and die while the squishies who stuck together were just fine. Bottom line: the success or failure of a team is often more than the sum of its ATs.
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"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
One need not be a chicken to judge an egg.
When something genuinely sucks, you can easily and correctly recognize that even if you can't do better. |
like i just said, lead one and tell us how easy it is. otherwise your perspective lacks the experience to have a valid point. theres a guy who never played baseball who can tell me the pirates stink, and theres a guy who played pro for a few years and can give me real granular details of what they are doing wrong and what they could do to improve. guess who isn't wasting my time.
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(FYI, personally, I can. I have led them and it is easy.)
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
3. Today a group of us were standing around and someone said "Okay since no one else wants to I'll form a Lambda and we can do the BAF afterwards.. Sounded perfect until the teams formed. Team one, the leader's team btw, was nothing but brutes, tankers and scrappers. Team 2, the one I was placed on, was nothing but blasters, an MM, a corruptor, one tank and one SoA. In short team 2 was going to spend a LOT of time face down on the floor in phase two. I figured after he was done recruiting the leader would juggle but NO and not only that he announce that team 1 would be doing acids and 2 would get grenades. Acids always seems to be a little easier than the grenades .. less lag and a simpler route. Then this idiot actually q'd us up.. I was assuming all the time he was joking but he actually intended to run the league that way. I decline the q and quit. Now I don't give a crap if I hunt acids or grenades I have done enough trials to have both routes memorized but DO NOT put together a team that has failure written all over it and expect me to hang around so you can giggle at my frustration.
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"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
One need not be a chicken to judge an egg.
When something genuinely sucks, you can easily and correctly recognize that even if you can't do better. |
Not only does it sound like she chose not too help them hold it together, her first thing to do it ***** and moan about how these inexperienced leaders are not good enough for her skill level.
So to that I say, Do it yourself first, try the shoes on. Being a leader is more than knowing how to cook.
*This is aside from leaders who lie to the team. Thats just dbagish. But again, I think that belongs in an ****** leader thread*
2. League leader advertised a BAF and I joined up.. when we got inside we were finally informed it was a master of run and we'd be doing the Keep em Seperated portion. Okay mostly I do the BAF for the easy astrals and Emp and am perfectly happy with the normal run but keep em seperate is another astral so fine. Problem was the leader threw teams together and didn't seem to care about actually making sure they could do their assigned jobs. The ADD team was the smallest of the three and ill equipped to keep the adds in check. I was on my Rad/Rad and we were doing a great job with Siege until we got totally overrun with adds, because most of the add team was in the hospital, and pretty soon the adds were totally out of control and people started to quit..INCLUDING the leader that put the mess togther to begin with. Okay first of all again don't lie.. if you intend to do a master run tell people so they can decide IF they want to join. And more important take a little time before qing to examine your teams and organinze them so there is a chance for success. LASTLY.. if you ever want me to join a team you run again don't quit when things go bad.. especially when its YOUR fault!
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Not that that detracts anything from your experiences and points. Just a random comment.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
Quitting a team where the leader suddenly changes the activity isn't bad, as you may not have time for the new activity.
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