What is your position on untyped damage in Incarnate content?
By
Aneko,
Posted on: 2011-08-23 20:16 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
If the damage is avoidable like Nova Fist then I have no problem with it.
A cheap character on SOs with higher skill levels should most definitely survive longer than a moronic character with lots of inf backing him.
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/agree with this|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
If the damage is avoidable like Nova Fist then I have no problem with it.
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one of the biggest reasons i hate keyes trial is the antimatter pulse is unresistable dmg AND there is no way to avoid it
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Originally Posted by Giant2005
If the damage is avoidable like Nova Fist then I have no problem with it.
A cheap character on SOs with higher skill levels should most definitely survive longer than a moronic character with lots of inf backing him. |
Except when you happen to be mid animation when it goes off. -_-
I don't see why these attacks shouldn't work like the attacks in the rest of the game. I can understand them being high damage, sure, but one shotting someone with capped resists? It really just feels like cheating.
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I play a lot of Brutes and Tanks and have never been hit with a Nova Fist. You get around a solid 8s warning which is ample enough time to finish your attack and the one queued and then get out of range. Granted, lag may be a contributing factor here and you may not get as much warning as I seem to.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Except when you happen to be mid animation when it goes off. -_-
I don't see why these attacks shouldn't work like the attacks in the rest of the game. I can understand them being high damage, sure, but one shotting someone with capped resists? It really just feels like cheating. |
the activation time for nova fist in game is 5.5 the last half second is when the power makes the hit roll, so you have 5 seconds (maybe more if laggy) to move
personally i usually prefer using ranged toons for that part
I like the untyped damages, makes you think.
Apex - you need to constantly move to pull Battle Maiden out of the rings, and to stay out of the rings yourself. I find this fun.
Marauder - you just need to back up from him or else take a OHKO+1hp attack.
Keyes - inspirations, eat 'em. Also encourages your leaguemates to use their darn temp powers ASAP so you can move on. It really isn't that hard..
I agree with Giant - A cheap character on SOs with higher skill levels should most definitely survive longer than a moronic character with lots of inf backing him.
***
Me suk at teh english wording of my thoughts. I apologize LOL It shall stay in Nuggetnese.
Meant to say - I like the untyped damage. It lets the person who isn't willing to spend thirty minutes in the AH every so often to start racking in influence to build their character have a chance in newer content. This game is easy, even easier when you spec-out your character. Throwing something evil like a move that can kill you in one hit, or knock you out of battle completely, is just something that you will need to find a way over. Movement helps in Apex and Lambda. Self-heals and Ally-Heals can help in Keyes. Clarion, or high mez resist will help in the Underground.
I myself hope for even more unresistable attacks, I find them fun. As long as I am having fun, let it be 4x8 TFs or cheap tactics like OHKO+1, I will continue to play this game. 
@War-Nugget
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
CoH players are stupid and incompetent compared to WoW players.
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
the activation time for nova fist in game is 5.5 the last half second is when the power makes the hit roll, so you have 5 seconds (maybe more if laggy) to move
personally i usually prefer using ranged toons for that part |
That wasn't even really the point, it was just one example. The point is I was curious as to how people feel about magical damage types appearing out of thin air that we can't build resistance to. And even worse than that, even with beyond softcapped positional defense, it still doesn't matter. I guess these attacks aren't melee, ranged, OR aoe, so logically speaking I guess they don't exist at all! -_- And yet they'll ignore your stats and one shot you all the same.
I was more wondering about whether most people were comfortable with the principle of that guy who trained you up to level two (and did whatever it is that Anti Matter does) being able to create attacks with no type or position that they magically conjured, apparently out of thin air, because they aren't being delivered from any other position that I'm aware of existing in the game.
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Nonpositional attacks aren't anything new, I believe a couple psionic attacks are nonpositional.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I guess these attacks aren't melee, ranged, OR aoe, so logically speaking I guess they don't exist at all!
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For the record, the game being a cheating jerk isn't anything new either (see: Master Illusionists).
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
Nonpositional attacks aren't anything new, I believe a couple psionic attacks are nonpositional.
For the record, the game being a cheating jerk isn't anything new either (see: Master Illusionists). |
one of the biggest cheaters out there is hamidon lol, nonpositional attacks, nontyped dmg and can even kill PA (which the AVs in trials do not, except for the obliteration beam in keyes trial)
Yeah I agree that Hamidon cheating is just as much of an issue... But the enemies who cheat shouldn't be validating the cheating of other enemies. I just think either everything should play by the rules, or the next incarnate slots should give us the option to Cheat, too. Fair is fair.
Fair is fair, which is why we're smarter than the game (um, theoretically).
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
Just wait until The Battalion arrives 
@War-Nugget
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
CoH players are stupid and incompetent compared to WoW players.
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It would be one thing if uber-AV's and the like just had massive debuffs that lead to deaths. God knows Arachnos p*ss me off, but I don't really consider it totally cheating. It makes sense, because everything was functioning within the rules of the game- Your defense gets debuffed, you have lower defense.
You have no -end protection and you get sapped, you lose your endurance. I'm just bothered by the <God Mode> attacks because they don't follow the rules. If they were even replaced by AoE debuffs or something, and still did the same amount of damage, but in a logical way, I would be ok with it... But as it is now, I just find it incredibly frustrating.
My opinion?
The disparity between "survivable" and "unsurvivable" characters can be so large the game has to cheat in order to be fair - as odd as that sounds.
For example, if Sequester could be avoided, people would become softcapped and ignore it. Prior to Incarnates, that's how I tanked the Patron AVs in the STF (at the same time). Soft cap, kill GW, profit.
If the aoe damage pulse on Keyes was resistible energy damage, it would only tickle Elec Armor characters (esp Brutes/Tanks). Where does one set the damage on it? Just enough to threaten a Blaster wouldn't even dent the aforementioned Brutes, but high enough to threaten them would be one shotting anyone who wasn't one... or wasn't resistance hard capped... Actually, to take off half the health of a res hard capped Brute with Accolades (so 900 dmg after resists), it would deal 2250 at 75% res. Of the ATs with 75% res cap, only Scrappers could have enough health to not be one shot.
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The thing is though, that the rest of the game works just fine the way it is. I don't expect my Blaster to be as survivable as my scrapper in any situation when it comes to normal content and even other end game TF's. I'm not saying that Incarnate AV's shouldn't be tougher than the average bear, but I am saying that the survivability of the players they attack should not be discounted because that player got hit with teh wrath. |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
My opinion?
The disparity between "survivable" and "unsurvivable" characters can be so large the game has to cheat in order to be fair - as odd as that sounds. For example, if Sequester could be avoided, people would become softcapped and ignore it. Prior to Incarnates, that's how I tanked the Patron AVs in the STF (at the same time). Soft cap, kill GW, profit. If the aoe damage pulse on Keyes was resistible energy damage, it would only tickle Elec Armor characters (esp Brutes/Tanks). Where does one set the damage on it? Just enough to threaten a Blaster wouldn't even dent the aforementioned Brutes, but high enough to threaten them would be one shotting anyone who wasn't one... or wasn't resistance hard capped... Actually, to take off half the health of a res hard capped Brute with Accolades (so 900 dmg after resists), it would deal 2250 at 75% res. Of the ATs with 75% res cap, only Scrappers could have enough health to not be one shot. |
As for the point that "skilled players should always do better," I'm not disagreeing with that. The thing is though, the Invention system is a big part of the game, people work very hard on their builds, and I feel the numbers that are attained through that work should be applicable in all situations.
I understand the frustration, but the Incarnate trials are intentionally designed to be far more challenging than anything we have seen previously. If you could avoid most of it by merely softcapping S/L or even M/R/A, then it wouldn't really be all that challenging, would it?
- Garielle
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Originally Posted by Frosty_Femme
I said "ur" which is not a word. It's a sound dumb people make when you ask them to spell out "you are".
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Originally Posted by Garielle
I understand the frustration, but the Incarnate trials are intentionally designed to be far more challenging than anything we have seen previously. If you could avoid most of it by merely softcapping S/L or even M/R/A, then it wouldn't really be all that challenging, would it?
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Well what I would prefer is for their special attacks to do something like a 30% resistance debuff and a 20% defense debuff in the same AOE radius that they are currently, do 10-20% more damage than standard AV's "heavy hitting attacks," and on top of that be part s/l and part exotic damage... ie: toxic or psi. They are exotic damages for a reason, because most players are hit hard by them. They still follow the rules, though. Also perhaps in some scenarios, add a Regen debuff to the heavy hitting attacks.
And Incarnate AV's have a higher to-hit than most enemies, so the softcap alone, which most people do not build past, would not be enough to guarantee that no damage is taken.
This would still make them very powerful attacks while following the rules of the game, ie: they will affect squishies more than non-squishies and player stats will still be taken into account in terms of how much damage is taken while letting them remain more powerful and therefore more challenging than other enemies in the game.
I'm honestly mad that the incarnate content isn't harder, the only one I was on that failed was a master run and that's because lag caused the timer to not match up and we ran out of time.
range, melee, and aoe (which could be argued is either ranged or melee so having aoe isn't "fair") are the types we see but what if I called the damage type biological or better yet just type the damage but give it a base accuracy of 1000% hell a nuclear warhead can be off by a football field and still wipe out the field and much more and that's what I compare the untyped attacks to, it's unavoidable and honestly that's ok.
Also lets be honest a couple cold shields and everyone has the same defense which is another reason why we need untyped damage. I monitor my defense in case I'm debuffed on my s/l/e/r capped blaster, all defenses were hard capped at 175% 90% of the trial so really my IOd build was getting hit just as often as everyone else.
I'm glad they made things more difficult at baseline instead of just giving the options to make us weaker during task forces. I honestly want more difficult content.
I haven't played the Incarnate stuff yet since that was after my time. I will give it a shot once Issue 21 goes live and I roll my /regen Brute...
Anyways, two questions:
1) Is the one shot mechanic still in place? There used to be a mechanic where if you took a one shot you were always left with 1 hp.
2) In the case of this AOE you are referring to, is the AOE dealt out in pulses in order to cancel out the one shot rule? IE damage dealt every .5 seconds for 1.5 seconds or something?
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a - When hit with an attack that is a OHKO, you are left with 1 healthpoint.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
I haven't played the Incarnate stuff yet since that was after my time. I will give it a shot once Issue 21 goes live and I roll my /regen Brute...
Anyways, two questions: 1) Is the one shot mechanic still in place? There used to be a mechanic where if you took a one shot you were always left with 1 hp. 2) In the case of this AOE you are referring to, is the AOE dealt out in pulses in order to cancel out the one shot rule? IE damage dealt every .5 seconds for 1.5 seconds or something? |
b - The pulse attack happens every thirty seconds in Keyes, and deals 50% of your health + % of how much health Anti-Matter has currently. The more AM is damaged, the more damage the pulse does. You can heal up in the thirty seconds before the pulse happens again.
@War-Nugget
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
CoH players are stupid and incompetent compared to WoW players.
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What about this nova fist attack?
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Originally Posted by War-Nugget
a - When hit with an attack that is a OHKO, you are left with 1 healthpoint.
b - The pulse attack happens every thirty seconds in Keyes, and deals 50% of your health + % of how much health Anti-Matter has currently. The more AM is damaged, the more damage the pulse does. You can heal up in the thirty seconds before the pulse happens again. |
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Nova Fist does a massive hit of Unresistable damage. It's well over the tanker hit point cap, so it should kill anyone it hits. Thankfully, we have the "One Hit Code", which is a check in the combat system that caps any damage dealt to a Player at (their max HP - 1). This means that, if you're at full HP, no SINGLE hit will kill you, but anything that follows will. It also means that, since it checks against max HP, not current, if you're missing even one HP, you're dead when it hits. Attacks that deal their damage in multiple ticks have the One Hit Code applied on each tick, so they can actually one-shot someone at full health, if they hit hard enough.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
What about this nova fist attack?
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Nova Fist only deals one tick of damage, so the one hit code saves you. The problem arises from the tons of potential attacks coming from the reinforcements - it's really easy to take one point of damage just before or just after the hit.
To the OP: I have no problem with Unresistable damage. I DO have a problem with UNAVOIDABLE damage. Hami and the Crystal Titan have cheating attacks that autohit, and deal special damage that bypasses resistances we can build for, but there's special inspirations we can use to avoid the damage. Toxic attacks (that we're unlikely to have high resistance to, if any) typically have attack vectors that Defense can help avoid. Nova Fist, Battle Maiiden's Lance, and War Walkers' Orbital Cannons have a warning to get out of the way. The damage in Keyes? Autohit, zone-wide, unresistable damage. You can't defend against it, you can't get out of the way, and there's no inspiration to prevent the damage. You can't stop it, you can only fix it after the fact. This, to me, is unreasonable. It shouldn't be possible to stop all incoming damage of every type, or even some damage of every type. But just as every type of protection should have an Achilles' Heel, every devastating attack should have an impenetrable barrier, even if it's hard to get, or impossible to maintain long-term.
@Roderick
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IMO, they made a disastrous mistake when they made ally shields affect all allies without any consideration towards balance. Soft-capping, even soft-capping to the Itrial standards, isn't difficult with a few buffers in the league. As such, they won't worry much about taking measures to circumvent those levels of defense.|
Originally Posted by B_Nix
I'm honestly mad that the incarnate content isn't harder, the only one I was on that failed was a master run and that's because lag caused the timer to not match up and we ran out of time.
range, melee, and aoe (which could be argued is either ranged or melee so having aoe isn't "fair") are the types we see but what if I called the damage type biological or better yet just type the damage but give it a base accuracy of 1000% hell a nuclear warhead can be off by a football field and still wipe out the field and much more and that's what I compare the untyped attacks to, it's unavoidable and honestly that's ok. Also lets be honest a couple cold shields and everyone has the same defense which is another reason why we need untyped damage. I monitor my defense in case I'm debuffed on my s/l/e/r capped blaster, all defenses were hard capped at 175% 90% of the trial so really my IOd build was getting hit just as often as everyone else. I'm glad they made things more difficult at baseline instead of just giving the options to make us weaker during task forces. I honestly want more difficult content. |
I'll agree with THB. There are exotic damage types that should be utilized for some of these effects. A nuclear reactor seems like a fine place to use energy and toxic damage.
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Originally Posted by B_Nix
I'm honestly mad that the incarnate content isn't harder, the only one I was on that failed was a master run and that's because lag caused the timer to not match up and we ran out of time.
range, melee, and aoe (which could be argued is either ranged or melee so having aoe isn't "fair") are the types we see but what if I called the damage type biological or better yet just type the damage but give it a base accuracy of 1000% hell a nuclear warhead can be off by a football field and still wipe out the field and much more and that's what I compare the untyped attacks to, it's unavoidable and honestly that's ok. Also lets be honest a couple cold shields and everyone has the same defense which is another reason why we need untyped damage. I monitor my defense in case I'm debuffed on my s/l/e/r capped blaster, all defenses were hard capped at 175% 90% of the trial so really my IOd build was getting hit just as often as everyone else. I'm glad they made things more difficult at baseline instead of just giving the options to make us weaker during task forces. I honestly want more difficult content. |
keep in mind that what you consider to be challenging isn't necessarily what everyone else considers to be challenging. Even with a top notch build, it is going to be difficult to tackle certain tasks in the game that don't cheat. Overcoming tasks that are difficult but not impossible to achieve is what I consider to be challenging. Going up against enemies who just flat-out throw the rule book out the window oversteps that line in my opinion.
For me, since I realize that "fun," "challenging" and the like are all subjective, the best way for the game to remain fair for everyone regardless of their opinion is if the game would simply follow the rules... By that I mean, follow the same rules all the time.
additionally--- As for your point about a "nuclear warhead" being able to destroy everything. Alright... That would be viable if it weren't for the fact that this is happening in a Super Hero Universe. You're talking about people who can emit radiation from their bodies and throw fireballs from their hands.
I just wanted to hear some more opinions on this... Personally, I believe that *all* damage should be typed. I find it unfair that someone who invests a lot into a good build, both inf. wise and time wise, is just as likely to be one shotted by <super Incarnate NPC power> as someone who uses SO's. What some people would call challenging I would call cheating.
I would like to see what the popular opinion is on the forums... Do you feel that your billion influence, 5 purple set having awesome character should be just as easy to one shot with nova fist as that alt you just got to 50 who still uses SO's? I understand it seems like the mechanic is in place to keep things "fair" for everyone, but to me it just seems unfair. It makes it feel like all that hard work we put into building up our character's survivability was for nothing in the end game content.