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Broken record yo
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
I suppose a set of skills a monkey could learn are still skills...
I just don't understand why you and other PvPers pride yourselves on these skills... d;D |
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I couldn't Help it! I'll stop, I'll stop. |
Originally Posted by Xanatos
Broken record yo
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I posted to your RP thing by the way. I think trying to revive Virtue RP is a worthy endeavor and I'm not entirely being sarcastic about that statement. d;D
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Yeah I saw. I liked it haha. We're gonna be hosting an RP wedding in RV at some point I think.
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
I couldn't Help it! I'll stop, I'll stop.
I posted to your RP thing by the way. I think trying to revive Virtue RP is a worthy endeavor and I'm not entirely being sarcastic about that statement. d;D |
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The Praetorian Crisis Police will be sure to bring cake....
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
Yeah I saw. I liked it haha. We're gonna be hosting an RP wedding in RV at some point I think.
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Are you down with PCP?
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Originally Posted by vindizzLe
The PCP? What a fantastic acronym for a group.
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As founded as you think this statement may have been, you cannot and do not speak for all of the players, be it at launch, i4, or otherwise. You do not know why people bought this game.
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Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
While the edit to my post does indeed make it more accurate I still stand behind what I said. Arcana can say things a bit more eloquently than me though. My point was, I didn't buy this game for PvP and neither did anyone else before Issue 4, a year after launch.
The game was never advertised to have PvP before that time either. That is all. |
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There's a difference between forgetting to put in a cap, and putting in a power that immediately hits the cap. The devs claimed back then that they didn't think players could readily hit the cap. However credible or not credible that sounds (and it is credible when you think about other mistakes they made, like actually forgetting what hold resistance even does**) that's different than putting in a power that would immediately make a player impossible to hit in PvP short of astronomical tohit buffs, and that would make all accuracy slotting worthless.|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
Back in the day invauln tankers could get 100% res. I guess the devs didn't plan on putting PVE in this game either.
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** The devs gave the original Hamidon 100% hold resistance. Because they didn't want us to be able to hold Hamidon. I rest my case.
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I didn't say there wasn't. I don't fault the players that "figured out" the system and enjoyed playing within it. I'm just saying no one was ever supposed to be dealt that hand.|
Originally Posted by Neuronia
Depite all the brokenness of IOs, powers and so on there is still an element of skill and practice involved
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PvP in City of Heroes was like when you buy your one year old niece an expensive present that you forgot to buy batteries for, but its ok because all she wants to do is play with the box it came in anyway. On the one hand, buying a gift that doesn't work is dumb. On the other hand, yanking the box away from her is cruel. The devs (like all MMO devs, it seems) fundamentally, at a deep level, believe in the MMO rule: you can always fix it later. I believe in the second chances rule: you don't always get them. Sometimes you leave yourself with a problem with no good solutions.
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Nice analogy, are you trying to be offensive?| PvP in City of Heroes was like when you buy your one year old niece an expensive present that you forgot to buy batteries for, but its ok because all she wants to do is play with the box it came in anyway. On the one hand, buying a gift that doesn't work is dumb. On the other hand, yanking the box away from her is cruel. The devs (like all MMO devs, it seems) fundamentally, at a deep level, believe in the MMO rule: you can always fix it later. I believe in the second chances rule: you don't always get them. Sometimes you leave yourself with a problem with no good solutions. |
The devs haven't found a solution because they don't understand the problem. The problem is not balance. They can tinker with the system all they want and it will never give them the result they want, which to me seems to be making pvp palatable to mainstream players.
Most people in this game are not going to be into pvp because they go from a situation where they have routine, easy tasks, to one where they are fighting experienced pvpers with tricked out builds and getting horribly wrecked. There needs to be a goal-oriented pvp variation where pve skill is actually an asset in the encounter, unlike the current pvp system which follows different rules and turns everything on its head in terms of desirable powers. If they actually got good at it, then some of them would transition to player-killing-player pvp.
Hardcore pvpers aren't asking for much. Get rid of stupid crap like TS, HD and diminishing returns. Make it like it was before. Add some new maps. Add a little more variety. Fix the longstanding bugs they've ignored for years.
www.battlewraith.deviantart.com
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If you have to ask, then no, I wasn't. But I will say that specifically looking for and finding offense with that analogy represents the other problem with PvP that exists on the opposite side of the user interface from the one I've been talking about here.
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Originally Posted by BattleWraith
Nice analogy, are you trying to be offensive?
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I think the offense is being taken because you're implying that the PvPers received PvP from the devs after they put something into it (In the case of your analogy, money) and then are content to play with something considered 'lesser' (The box/garbage it came in).|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If you have to ask, then no, I wasn't.
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I just assumed you didn't mean for it to come across that way the second time I read it.
Favorite Hero: Computer (Empathy/Energy Blast Defender)
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"The other problem with PvP"? Care to elaborate on that?
I think your analogy was poor, both in terms of relating to the history of pvp in this game and the possible subtext that one could read into it. I didn't have to look for anything. I'm somewhat at a loss for how you could be oblivious to different ways it could be read.
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Think she's implying people can be rude/get their feelings hurt over PvP.
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Originally Posted by BattleWraith
"The other problem with PvP"? Care to elaborate on that?
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There is goal oriented PvP in capturing boxes in RV and Hotspots in Siren's and Launching a nuke in WB. The thing is, there is not a significant reward or incentive. Also, it is very repetitive.. You win RV once, and nothing special happens.. there is no victory screen.. just "Heroes/Villains Win!" All you get for a reward is a lame summon. If you could get a PvP IO by capturing pillboxes, (or something similar, does not have to be IOs) it might actually spring some competition. This may well lead to farming, but people already farm for IOs..|
Originally Posted by BattleWraith
goal-oriented pvp variation
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These are just some thoughts to consider on that topic.
RE: Arcana's analogy
I think it would have been better to say the kid hates the gift but plays with it anyway because their old toys are replaced for this one. Too literal? I am not trying here..
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I think Arcana's calling you all stupid juvenile children...that's just my interpretation of course... being that I am a stupid juvenile child at heart and revel in my... juvenility (yes it's a word). d;D|
Originally Posted by Hemmingway
RE: Arcana's analogy I think it would have been better to say the kid hates the gift but plays with it anyway because their old toys are replaced for this one. Too literal? I am not trying here.. |
Arcana, so can we expect to see you in Freedom RV? I heard you have a TA. I have a Rad we could have some fun times. d;D
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My example was illustrating that the power-related problems you cited were more due to the devs being bad at foresite, rather than actually not planning to include PVP in their game.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
There's a difference between forgetting to put in a cap, and putting in a power that immediately hits the cap. The devs claimed back then that they didn't think players could readily hit the cap. However credible or not credible that sounds (and it is credible when you think about other mistakes they made, like actually forgetting what hold resistance even does**) that's different than putting in a power that would immediately make a player impossible to hit in PvP short of astronomical tohit buffs, and that would make all accuracy slotting worthless.
** The devs gave the original Hamidon 100% hold resistance. Because they didn't want us to be able to hold Hamidon. I rest my case. |
In regards to your behaviour in this thread: stop acting dumb and trying to be smart at the same time. It is painfully transparent.
Terminal Lad, sign up for the Freedom ladder. I know you to have held your own in previous leagues, it'll be fun. 
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I'm not oblivious to how it can be read. However, I know the difference between how its likely to be read by someone primarily looking to get the point, and by someone looking for something to argue with. In the PvP forums specifically, my target audience is only the former, not the latter.
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Originally Posted by BattleWraith
"The other problem with PvP"? Care to elaborate on that?
I think your analogy was poor, both in terms of relating to the history of pvp in this game and the possible subtext that one could read into it. I didn't have to look for anything. I'm somewhat at a loss for how you could be oblivious to different ways it could be read. |
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Quote:
No.
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
My example was illustrating that the power-related problems you cited were more due to the devs being bad at foresite, rather than actually not planning to include PVP in their game.
In regards to your behaviour in this thread: stop acting dumb and trying to be smart at the same time. It is painfully transparent. |
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I don't agree with everything Arcana presented, but I didn't read any offense into what was said either.
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In other words you don't care how you come across to other people because you know what you mean and the people with whom you'd like to have a discussion know what you mean. Lovely. I don't think I've had a discussion with you before and don't have any particular axe to grind but your choice of words was frankly pretty stupid. | I'm not oblivious to how it can be read. However, I know the difference between how its likely to be read by someone primarily looking to get the point, and by someone looking for something to argue with. In the PvP forums specifically, my target audience is only the former, not the latter. |
You shouldn't use the context of the pvp forums to disregard the way your comments are likely to be received. We've already got the devs for that.
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Honestly? We're going to argue whether something was insulting or not?
If anything it was a small unintentional jab, and people are screaming how much pain and agony they're in.
Get over it. If it happens again, then you can say something.
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.
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Not completely true. After playing CoH for a couple months my brother moved to WoW, and I was going to join him there (he was offering me a lot of gold), the only reason I stayed was because I heard about PvP coming to CoH. I figured a new PvP system would mean that everyone was a noob and I could fit right in. Up until then I basically killed Elite Bosses solo (was harder on SOs) and leveled up some toons for it. Also note, I'm still playing.|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
My point was, I didn't buy this game for PvP and neither did anyone else before Issue 4, a year after launch.
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I doubt many bought the game for something that was going to be released later, but it definitely would have kept some people around who were getting bored.
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.
Its no secret that by MMO standards this game is *horribly* unbalanced. Ironically, that creates a rather unique environment for the PvE game that is, by many players' reckoning, appropriate to the genre so long as they keep it at least minimally under control. But that doesn't fly in PvP: its one thing for all of us players collectively to embarrassingly dominate a bunch of pixels, its quite another to create a game where one group of humans can embarrassingly dominate another bunch of humans in odd or broken ways. That presented a uniquely non-trivial problem for the devs: a majority of players got used to the wild unbalanced powers system prior to I4 and wouldn't accept strict rebalancing for PvP, but without it PvP quickly became a meta-game of best exploiting the broken aspects of the powers system, which is not something to be especially proud of.
Which actually points to the *fundamental* problem with PvP in CoH. You can't (or should not) retrofit PvP to an existing game because PvP is as much about expectations and social acceptance of PvP as it is about numbers and mechanics, and if people aren't innoculated to your PvP from the start its very hard to get them to fully accept it later on, especially when you have to start changing the game to make it work.
Under the best of circumstances the devs left themselves a problem I'm not sure *any* dev team on Earth could have dug themselves out of easily.
quark soup (QGP) or just farm people for loot.
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