superhero comics evolve directly from the tales of demigod level Heroes such as Guan Yu, Heracles, Beowulf, Son Wukong, Hiawatha, Lugh and so on
superhero comics are about as fantasy as you get
that said...they're right, we probably won't see this
gargoyles maybe
but flight doesn't work all that well here and the computer AI doesn't use it intelligently....the flight AI isn't the biggest hurdle, all the AIs use the same stupid set up, but yeah
reptilian maybe
and then we'll see the invasion of the slistacks
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
As an aside, my boyfriend just helped me to come up with a GREAT way to work a dragon into this game that is 100% logical, ties in to an existing enemy group AND could be as big as anyone wants it. Have the Tsoo summon an ancient dragon ghost (like the Ancestor Spirits). It could be some sort of guardian like the existing Tsoo ghosts already are. Technically speaking, it is easier to create since it will be an NPC that has whatever movement and powers (and placement on a map) the Devs decide. It could be done similar to a Hydra tentacle even if they use a traditional Asian dragon look (which would make the most sense anyway). We all win!
Best yet, you'd be able to kill it and probably get a nifty badge like Dragon Slayer.
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Point taken. However, to be clear, that was a general you. I didn't mean your personal argument, I should have been clearer.
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
my arguemnt(which actually was it probably wont happen because it would be thematically odd and technically infeasable) was that it was not off limits on the basis of being "fantasy" because several examples in the super hero genre on both western and eastern media could readily be named. your response was "i dont like eastern media and i dont like any fantasy elements" now the set is certainly not going to be included or excluded based on what we discuss here. but i was providing examples where the thing was not out of place, and rather than discussing why those might not apply, your response simply was," oh, but i dont like those" so no, that was not my argument at all, try again.
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I'm a general? awesome, im going to jump a hay cart in my car now honking my horn seeing if someone narrates.
ok, guess who is punchy from work 
Hm. Maybe I'll design a set just for fun. If I do though, I'll go with the more plausible humanoid dragons. *Taps his chin* Question is, do I have enough to go on? I THINK I do...but the next question is, all in like Demon summoning, or more regimented like everyone else? Hmmm.
"I have something to say! It's better to burn out then to fade away!"
your talking about npcs and whatever, but it comes down to a basic thing, just take demons and repurpose the design, and i dont mean the demonlings, or the prince, just the demons, they are already halfway there. besides, theres no point in us arguing, the devs will do whatever they want, all we need to do is ether support or put down the idea.
and for the recored, i dont mean asian dragons, i mean mean looking dragons, tough.
http://files.myopera.com/descentguy/...ragon-Gold.jpg
City of heroes is a game of firsts, so why not
I do love dragons and would love to see a huge dragon in this game somehow, but I'm not sure dragons would work for a MM set.
I do like the idea of truly flying MM pets, if it is ever possible (tries not to think of flying monkeys).
Maybe... just maybe... a Dragon summoning power could be something like Gang War in a wizardly monster summoning MM powerset...
Which makes me think of this:
I love me some Golden Axe...
Oh, anyway... Thirty-Seven... Fine fine, say you don't want dragons, but leave your that's not superheroy/comicbooky not-in-MY-game stuff at the door! Your opinion is fine and valid without that silliness mucking it up!
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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I disagree...|
Originally Posted by Major_Ravenick
besides, theres no point in us arguing,
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ok i got nothin'
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If you make them humanoid they aren't dragons. I personally have no problem with using humanoid skeletons
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Originally Posted by GreenFIame
Unless you make the Dragons Humanoids,
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Well for me the only objection is the technical issues.
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
so we should discount it because you don't like manga?
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Oh you mean the wussy dragons.
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Originally Posted by Major_Ravenick
and for the recored, i dont mean asian dragons, i mean mean looking dragons, tough.
http://files.myopera.com/descentguy/...ragon-Gold.jpg City of heroes is a game of firsts, so why not |
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Asian "dragons" are named as such mostly by misunderstanding Westerners|
Originally Posted by Major_Ravenick
your talking about npcs and whatever, but it comes down to a basic thing, just take demons and repurpose the design, and i dont mean the demonlings, or the prince, just the demons, they are already halfway there. besides, theres no point in us arguing, the devs will do whatever they want, all we need to do is ether support or put down the idea.
and for the recored, i dont mean asian dragons, i mean mean looking dragons, tough. http://files.myopera.com/descentguy/...ragon-Gold.jpg City of heroes is a game of firsts, so why not |
an Asian dragon is as likely to resemble a ten year old girl, a hornet, an old man or the long serpent with beard, whiskers and horn we've come to expect from that style
Asian dragons have shape because they find it convenient...they're more akin to being concepts or abstracts than actually creatures as we would understand it, being perfect shapeshifters for the simple fact that they don't really have a true form.
The serpent form is shown on pictures and the like because it is supposedly something that they become in order to impress people. Or else it is something that the artists thought would impress people. Westerners saw the pictures, heard the word connected and simply assumed it was the same thing as our European lizards with their breaths of either poison or fire.
matching most Western style dragons against anything of the Asian variety would be like trying to watch a match battle a thunderstorm, or a snowball survive a volcanic eruption
they have more to do with angels and demons than with the dragons of Western myth.
you only get equivalent levels of power from legends like Tiamat or Jormundgand in Western myths
Forbin's right...when it comes to real myth, Western dragons are largely wussy and uncouth as compared to Asian dragons being both hugely powerful and rather reasonable for most situations
granted, I excluded the D&D style dragons, which are among the most dangerous and powerful things in that game, the oldest usually even surpassing most demon lords
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
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That reminds me of a post I made about three years ago calling for more Giant Monsters and making them more of a Zone Event. Along with a Carnival Parade in Peregrine, a Freakshow Demolition Derby in Brickstown and a Vahzilok Meat Monster in Galaxy, I suggested a giant, Tsoo summoned Fire Dragon that weaved its way through the streets, setting things on fire. Players would have to fight the dragon, any surrounding Tsoo and put out the fires it started as part of a Zone Event. |
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
As an aside, my boyfriend just helped me to come up with a GREAT way to work a dragon into this game that is 100% logical, ties in to an existing enemy group AND could be as big as anyone wants it. Have the Tsoo summon an ancient dragon ghost (like the Ancestor Spirits). It could be some sort of guardian like the existing Tsoo ghosts already are. Technically speaking, it is easier to create since it will be an NPC that has whatever movement and powers (and placement on a map) the Devs decide. It could be done similar to a Hydra tentacle even if they use a traditional Asian dragon look (which would make the most sense anyway). We all win!
Best yet, you'd be able to kill it and probably get a nifty badge like Dragon Slayer. |
On topic, I love dragons. I'm a huge fan of dragonlore and have about three or four characters based on dragon mythology. However, I would hate to see them as a Mastermind set. Mainly because dragons are meant to be huge, unbridled sources of power akin to D&D or Asian dragons as mentioned above. Seeing them lowered to being some villain's henchman would be hugely belittling.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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Ok, so I'll start off by saying I'm not really a fan of a dragon MM either. Mostly because when I think of henchmen ... I really don't think 'dragon'. It seems an extremely poor fit for the AT's shtick.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
6Also, I will note that Mythology and the Supernatural are NOT what I mean when I say Fantasy. Fantasy is, to me, the classic D&D-styled adventure: dungeons, monsters, intrepid warriors.
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That said. You do realize that D&D pretty much just pulled a ton of stuff from myth right? They pulled dragons straight out of myth and folklore right along with vampires, werewolves, zombies, mummies, elves, dwarves, trolls, and well ... a good chunk of 'old school' D&D stuff. It's fine not liking fantasy, but the way you said it struck me as odd that's all.
MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
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And neither of those have anything to do with the fact they'd need to come up with a whole new skeleton. |
Originally Posted by Major_Ravenick
if we tell the devs they cant do something, then what chance is there that they will even try. in the future there could possibly be dragons.
characters have wings robots have a flying animation it can be done, it just takes time |
Besides, what difference do you think us telling the devs they can or can't do something makes? *chuckle*
Frankly, I'm against it simply for the fact that dragons at the scale they'd have to be to be mastermind, team and map friendly would look ridiculously small. You mention "Dragon" to me, and I'm thinking Great Beast. Less than that, and... eh. (And you're talking to someone who's made up "dragon-kin" as characters.)
YOU try fitting something whose head is as big as your body in a COT cave, much less an office building. Now stuff five more in there. Now try to go for donuts.
You should also be able to ride your dragon so you don't need the fly power.
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Doesn't that kind of AI exist already for the Illusion Phantasm, at least to some degree? I know they aren't controllable, but they seem to be able to be able to follow my Ill/Rad around and find their targets okay.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
These scripting limitations pose a huge technical hurdle for a "flying pet". Contextual information on the status of the player such as flying / hovering would need to be passed to the pet. Contextual information on the enemy such as flying / groundbound would also need to be passed along to properly synch up Mastermind Pet positioning with Target positioning
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Players can use the GoTo command and other functions to direct their pets to any specific location. However, the reticule system in the game currently has no allowences for depth control.
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Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
Fantasy totally fits in this game. Read a few comics and check out a few of the other characters on your server.
That being said, I'm against this. Emphatically.
What we do NOT need is another MM set with larger-than-human pets cramming themselves into narrow hallways and door. And no doubt, screaming obnoxiously and setting out fire effects at random.
Roll a demon MM and be content :P
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A thousand times, this. |
Originally Posted by Feycat
Fantasy totally fits in this game. Read a few comics and check out a few of the other characters on your server.
That being said, I'm against this. Emphatically. What we do NOT need is another MM set with larger-than-human pets cramming themselves into narrow hallways and door. And no doubt, screaming obnoxiously and setting out fire effects at random. Roll a demon MM and be content :P |
The other seven people on your team aren't paying fifteen bucks a month to stand on the wrong side of a sewer door and stare at your pet's butt.
"He may be arrogant, but he happens to be correct" - Ellis
"The server is full of crazies" - New_Dark_Age
Rainbow Arcana / Diamond D: Legion of Freedom - Virtue
lof.guildportal.com
While I would love to see flying pets in the game, I don't expect to see any in the near future. If they wanted to introduce flying pets, they could have already done this. Adding wings to the Demons would have enabled them to fly. Also, simply having jets on the robots would have given them the power of flight. Heck, the Assault Bot DOES have jets in his feet, and he STILL can't fly. Does this tell you anything?
I expect one of the reasons for this is the difficulty in getting them to behave with the limited (non-existent?) pet AI in the game. Have you ever gone into a room with your pets and have them hop up to the balcony or walkway above you, without warning, pulling additional aggro you neither anticipated NOR wanted? Can you imagine how much worse this might get if the pets could actually FLY? No? Picture pets flying to any level of the dreaded "layer cake" cave room in some of the CoT cave maps. How about flying pets in that huge multi-layer Arachnos room that shows up in some of the mid-to-high level Arachnos maps? Do you really WANT your pets flying all of the place?
The problem is, people look at something like this and say, "just give them flight". That's easy for us, as players, to say when we can't see the underlying systems and can't really grasp how poorly that would really work.
- Garielle
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Originally Posted by Frosty_Femme
I said "ur" which is not a word. It's a sound dumb people make when you ask them to spell out "you are".
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I'd have to direct you to Arcanaville or Manga for an explanation on how exactly Pet-Follow works. Basically, Phantasm can get away with it for several reasons.|
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
Doesn't that kind of AI exist already for the Illusion Phantasm, at least to some degree? I know they aren't controllable, but they seem to be able to be able to follow my Ill/Rad around and find their targets okay.
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First, the Phantasm was made during an era of development when the developers would "special case" everything, with unique scripts, settings, and configurations. Case in point being the "Crushing" special damage type. Over the years the developers have moved away from "special case" coding in order to improve maintenance of the code base, and improve documentation, as well as streamline the code.
Second: the Phantasm, and it's decoy, are only 2 possible computational combat system components. A Mastermind can field 6 computational combat system components by default, never minding Lore pets or Dark Miasma. We already know from I21 statements that MM's are much more processor / network intensive than other archetypes, one of the reasons they are placed behind a pay / veteran wall.
Third: if you ever actually pay attention to the Pet-Follow system... pet's typically line up behind the player and follow. With Masterminds you can sit and watch Pet's jostle for "position" as they run up and try to settle into place. For the most part, single Pet's don't have to do this settling, and only Phantasm's have to do the settling in three dimensional air-space.
Basically, just because a single pet can achieve a similar function, doesn't mean that function exists in a state that can be used by other pets... or should be used by other pets.
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| How does this currently work with the flying Lore pets? I don't have any of the flying ones myself, or I'd go take a look. Can't they be controlled at all, or do they just have to be directed to a ground location? |
Again, it's a script, not an AI.
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So do you know if all the flying Lore pets use a new function, or the same one as the Phantasms? I'm all curious, now, because I'd never really noticed before that Lore pets were the first flying pets that can accept commands.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Basically, just because a single pet can achieve a similar function, doesn't mean that function exists in a state that can be used by other pets... or should be used by other pets.
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Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
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i love every bit of that idea.
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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
As an aside, my boyfriend just helped me to come up with a GREAT way to work a dragon into this game that is 100% logical, ties in to an existing enemy group AND could be as big as anyone wants it. Have the Tsoo summon an ancient dragon ghost (like the Ancestor Spirits). It could be some sort of guardian like the existing Tsoo ghosts already are. Technically speaking, it is easier to create since it will be an NPC that has whatever movement and powers (and placement on a map) the Devs decide. It could be done similar to a Hydra tentacle even if they use a traditional Asian dragon look (which would make the most sense anyway). We all win!
Best yet, you'd be able to kill it and probably get a nifty badge like Dragon Slayer. |
I really like the idea, but if it's impossible to do (as described above), I guess that's that. But it would be awesome, I'd even pay for that set.
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Yes, I get that. But once Fantasy became a genre unto its own, to me, there is a line drawn between the two. Similar to how we don't look at a shark and talk about it as if it were an amoeba... just because things derive from a singular source does not mean they are not different. But, that is really beside the point.|
Originally Posted by Oliin
That said. You do realize that D&D pretty much just pulled a ton of stuff from myth right? They pulled dragons straight out of myth and folklore right along with vampires, werewolves, zombies, mummies, elves, dwarves, trolls, and well ... a good chunk of 'old school' D&D stuff. It's fine not liking fantasy, but the way you said it struck me as odd that's all.
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Also, let me be clear that I DO like Fantasy, and fantastical monsters AND dragons... I just don't think those things should really be featured in this particular game (without a very logical reason as to why they are there).
my arguemnt(which actually was it probably wont happen because it would be thematically odd and technically infeasable) was that it was not off limits on the basis of being "fantasy" because several examples in the super hero genre on both western and eastern media could readily be named. your response was "i dont like eastern media and i dont like any fantasy elements" now the set is certainly not going to be included or excluded based on what we discuss here. but i was providing examples where the thing was not out of place, and rather than discussing why those might not apply, your response simply was," oh, but i dont like those" so no, that was not my argument at all, try again.