Please Stop Pushing the Awesome Button
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-08-17 19:51 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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In D&D 3rd Ed a Bag of Rats could give you potentially infinite Attacks of Opportunity.
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Originally Posted by Quasadu
I think there's something wrong with your analogy if the most powerful abilities in the game are represented by a bag of rats.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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300 hours is insanely slow.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Err... On what planet? I don't have a single 50 that's under 300 hours - that's three HUNDRED hours. And I don't exactly waste my time or play slow classes.
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I don't know about four hours, but if you hitch yourself to the right AE team you will just burn through levels 1-25. 30-40 will take much longer and the final grind to 50 from 40 will likely take an hour or two hours or so.
I started a KM/Regen Stalker several weeks ago and got her to 31 from doing regular content, then got to 36 in 40 minutes just doorsitting in Architect Entertainment. The means are there if you're willing to ignore scripted content.
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Originally Posted by Seldom
Even a good player, if you don't have a good self heal or destiny or green inspirations will die, at least on one's own. If you have a team member who can help this is less a problem, but relying on someone else to have a specific kind of skill and be able to be attentive to you and your health for you to live. A trial that needs somebody else to do something challenging, a specific trial reward that uses a lot of investment, and may be outside your abilities to never die? Kinda risky. Or you can just die.
There's no huge problem with death around here, but it is probably the least favorite thing you can do to a player's character- kill them, especially in an unavoidable fashion. Things that defeat the player's character are avoided almost universally. Why? People play this for a number of reasons, but I'd venture to guess that winning, being victorious, and feeling powerful are up there in the list, even if unconsciously. Having your level 50 faceplant gives the message "you're not strong enough" or "X is stronger." Make these semi-unavoidable, and you've got something people will shun to varying extents. |
I feel completely powerless when I run Keyes. Insanely slotted heroes and villains die as if they were a mere fly on a desk. The deaths never stop either, just a constant grind from the hospital to the reactors then back to the hospitals, only to end up getting disintegrated later on. Sure, I can pop a few Respite inspirations when I see the damage coming in, that still doesn't make it fun.
In response to the OP, I run the content which is most efficient when grinding out Incarnate rewards. Keyes is inefficient (death to goal ratio is quite high), unrewarding (1 Empyrean <soon to be two?> and a few Astrals) compared to the others and immensely frustrating.
I will play the Underground Trial, but again if it features annoying insta-death mechanics, I will forsake it for the Behavioural Adjustment Facility or Lambda instances. The developers surely can railroad me into a trial for the next group of slots, and I will go that route and hold my nose doing so if it isn't enjoyable, but at this time I will not run Keyes and I'll withhold judgment on the Underground Trial.
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I can't believe the OP is actually shocked that something as badly designed as Keyes is avoided. The Underground trails is 100 times better designed than the dreck that is Keyes.
I see folks doing BAF, LAM, and UG regularly. I don't seem them touching Keyes any more often after Issue 21.
Players don't like insta death mechanics, hard to see attackes due to a UI needed help, and relying on having constant healing you say? SHOCKING!
/sarcasm
It has nothing to do with being dumb, as someone alluded to earlier.
Finding something unfun is just that. It's unfun.
And before anyone comes and tries to say it, it has nothing to do with learning the mechanics. By now on the handful of Keyes I've been on I'd say at least 3/4ths of the League knew the trail. And all except one succeeded. Want to know the common theme from everyone on it? VARIOUS comments stating that that trail is UNFUN. Yeah, folks who succeeded at it and still got good rewards in some cases STILL said it was UNFUN.
I'm glad Keyes is there for those who like it. I'm NOT shocked that those folks don't get to run it that often.
When compared to the next advanced trial in open beta (which a ton of people are PRAISING even though its LONGER than Keyes), Keyes is an epic fail of trial design. Hope the devs took notes.
EDIT: Also you'd think after Hamidon it would have been learned that folks don't like repeating the same content in a row, in trials.
EDIT2: So in summary and direct response to the OP: NO, they should keep pushing the awesome button. Keyes just is in no way shape or form part of that button. 
Now the upcoming Underground Trial, yeaaaahh that's part of the Awesome Paradigm.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Farmers are gonna farm...
In all seriousness, I may be in the minority, but I love running Keyes! And that was before I respec'd my Bane Spider into Aid Self.
I will admit, the first few runs were tough, and I despised Keyes, but I realized, this is what it boils down to. You have to be able to accept death. A lot of BAF Babies don't like that.
And I'm not dissing BAF at all either, I'm dissing the people that only run that ever. I haven't had a chance to run Underground yet, but from what I hear, it's long. Really long. But with level shifted enemies, it sounds like a challenge. 
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'Cause makin' floor angels isn't fun. Full stop.
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Originally Posted by Seldom
There's no huge problem with death around here, but it is probably the least favorite thing you can do to a player's character- kill them, especially in an unavoidable fashion. Things that defeat the player's character are avoided almost universally. Why?
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That's the solution right there. Diminishing returns. Couple it with a cap.|
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
I don't know what the answer is, although if someone at Paragon were to tell me that they were putting diminishing rewards on astrals, threads, and reward rolls for trials, I'd be ecstatic. Maybe what I want is so unpopular that getting rid of me, and the 1% or so of players who are like me, is the right answer. All I know is this:
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Like how in World of Warcraft they've got a weekly cap on the number of item-redeeming token points you can earn per week (It caps at roughly running 7 to 10 'heroics' - max level 5-person mission instances that take about 30-60 minutes each).
The diminishing return for CoH could be simple: 100% rewards first time, 80% second, and on down 20% each run. Reset -Weekly-
There's a -LOT- of content in this game, and that would create the incentive to 'spread the love' a bit.
The cap could be: can't run the same one of this things more than once per day for a character, and can't run it total account wide more than 1/3rd your number of characters high enough to enter it (without getting side kicked in where appropriate).
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It's challenging and unlike Keyes actually fun.
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Originally Posted by Icy_J
Farmers are gonna farm...
In all seriousness, I may be in the minority, but I love running Keyes! And that was before I respec'd my Bane Spider into Aid Self. I will admit, the first few runs were tough, and I despised Keyes, but I realized, this is what it boils down to. You have to be able to accept death. A lot of BAF Babies don't like that. And I'm not dissing BAF at all either, I'm dissing the people that only run that ever. I haven't had a chance to run Underground yet, but from what I hear, it's long. Really long. But with level shifted enemies, it sounds like a challenge. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Until they actually have more incarnate content than I can count on one hand, this would be a stupid decision.
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Originally Posted by Paisley
That's the solution right there. Diminishing returns. Couple it with a cap.
Like how in World of Warcraft they've got a weekly cap on the number of item-redeeming token points you can earn per week (It caps at roughly running 7 to 10 'heroics' - max level 5-person mission instances that take about 30-60 minutes each). The diminishing return for CoH could be simple: 100% rewards first time, 80% second, and on down 20% each run. Reset -Weekly- There's a -LOT- of content in this game, and that would create the incentive to 'spread the love' a bit. The cap could be: can't run the same one of this things more than once per day for a character, and can't run it total account wide more than 1/3rd your number of characters high enough to enter it (without getting side kicked in where appropriate). |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
If they put a cap and diminishing returns on it, the effect on me is that I will run a few then go do an ITF or work on my daily hero tips.
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The effect on me is that I would do BAF/UTrial then log for the rest of the evening.
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Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
If they put a cap and diminishing returns on it, the effect on me is that I will run a few then go do an ITF or work on my daily hero tips.
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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It's Posi's baby. It's the devs new shiney that they can use to get people playing and playing. I don't need to check the temperature in Hell to know this isn't going to happen. I wouldn't go down there to check anyway. They don't serve breakfast in Hell. |
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
If they put diminishing rewards on the trials I'm giving up on the Incarnate system.
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I think one issue with the incarnate system that doesn't really get talked about is slotting a T4 is just too expensive. Not only do you need the drops for a T4, you need to craft two T3s. Think about what needs to be done for a T4 Destiny. You have to unlock the alpha slot, interface slot, destiny slot, craft two T3s and then get the salvage for the actual T4. How about no? Many consider the T4 not worth it. Why? The cost for the reward is simply out of whack and since players "have" to max out their characters, this adds even more to the grind. This says nothing of the number of things that can be unlocked for your characters via the trial rewards like e-merits.
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I like Keyes, too. Maybe having a Fire blaster as a main has helped my acceptance of death :-)|
Originally Posted by Icy_J
In all seriousness, I may be in the minority, but I love running Keyes! And that was before I respec'd my Bane Spider into Aid Self.
I will admit, the first few runs were tough, and I despised Keyes, but I realized, this is what it boils down to. You have to be able to accept death. |
But even she doesn't die constantly. The damage pulse goes off every 30 seconds, so four columns of green insps will last eight minutes, and that's assuming I don't manage to stand next to anyone with a heal in that eight minute period, or fire off a Rebirth.
(The thing I find annoying about Keyes is that it seems to negate Stealth effects, which makes it very hard to sneak around and pick up the temps.)
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Wow. I'm really glad you don't run the game because the sheer stupidity of what you posted ranks just under je_saist's "every tanker gets Resist Energies" post.|
Originally Posted by Paisley
The diminishing return for CoH could be simple: 100% rewards first time, 80% second, and on down 20% each run. Reset -Weekly-
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Let's do the math here, shall we? It's very simple.
3 Trials (Keyes, BAF, Lambda)
7 Days in a Week
If the rewards were reset weekly, as you propose, players would be screwed out of rewards four days out of the week if (emphasis on if) they decided to do one full-reward trial per day. This means that people who enjoy snagging 3 Empyreans a day by doing all 3 available trials would be screwed out of full rewards 6 days out of the week.
You honestly think this is a GOOD idea? If anything it would just cause players to A) dismiss the Incarnate system entirely; B) quit the game because a decision that bad foreshadows further bad decisions.
Just no. We do not need ANY examples or gameplay models taken from WoW, we do not need diminishing returns and we sure as hell don't need diminishing returns that reset weekly.
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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When you put it this way its even a more horrible, terribad suggestion than I thought intially.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Wow. I'm really glad you don't run the game because the sheer stupidity of what you posted ranks just under je_saist's "every tanker gets Resist Energies" post.
Let's do the math here, shall we? It's very simple. 3 Trials (Keyes, BAF, Lambda) 7 Days in a Week If the rewards were reset weekly, as you propose, players would be screwed out of rewards four days out of the week if (emphasis on if) they decided to do one full-reward trial per day. This means that people who enjoy snagging 3 Empyreans a day by doing all 3 available trials would be screwed out of full rewards 6 days out of the week. You honestly think this is a GOOD idea? If anything it would just cause players to A) dismiss the Incarnate system entirely; B) quit the game because a decision that bad foreshadows further bad decisions. Just no. We do not need ANY examples or gameplay models taken from WoW, we do not need diminishing returns and we sure as hell don't need diminishing returns that reset weekly. |
The system that needs mass users to be functional (seeing as how you can't run one with 8) should after launching months ago switch to a system that makes it harder for a mass audience to actually use said system? One phrase comes to mind:
LOLWUT?
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
I wonder, after the Paragon Market comes out, how many people will stop doing iTrials? I know I'm just doing them for the Empyrean merits so I can get the trail auras and costume change emotes. I don't give two capes about level shifts, and will happily return to regular gameplay once I can purchase the things I want.
Unless the same minds that brought us badges in PVP zones decide to lock more content in the Astral/Emp vendors.
--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
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It's going to be worth 2 Emps per run. Same for the new Underground trial.
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Originally Posted by newchemicals
Maybe if Keyes was worth 3 Emp merits I'd run on it more, but for 1 its better to run one BAF and one LAM and move on to the next character for emp merit farming.
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Rabbits & Hares:Blue (Mind/Emp Controller)Maroon (Rad/Thermal Corruptor)and one of each AT all at 50
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People say this, but there has never been a predicted mass exodus from the game. People would still run the Incarnate trials, and yes, a few people might even ragequit over it. I'm not going to argue the merits or lack thereof of the idea, but no matter how many times people predict DOOOOM!!!, all it's done is damage those people's credibility, not actually come to pass.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
If anything it would just cause players to A) dismiss the Incarnate system entirely; B) quit the game because a decision that bad foreshadows further bad decisions.
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We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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It actually can be done. During Double XP weekend, I saw someone go 1 to 50 in two days. This means, if they do the same thing when it is NOT Double XP, they could be there in four days. |
Originally Posted by Ironik
You can farm a character to 50 in 3 hours? And play them "normally" to 50 in 30?
I'd like to try that just once. Someone point me to these farms. And someone tell me how to get ANY character to 50 in less than a week of playing. |
Personally, I did 24 to 50 this past double xp weekend in 2 days without running ANY farms at all. That was just straight running teams at +2 and +3.
- Garielle
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Originally Posted by Frosty_Femme
I said "ur" which is not a word. It's a sound dumb people make when you ask them to spell out "you are".
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Ditto.|
Originally Posted by gec72
I ran trials for a while, but now that I think of it, I don't think I've done any since around when Keyes came out. I've gone back to playing lower level characters. Building them out is just as rewarding as trying to build out incarnate powers, if not more so. And it is still a lot more leisurely.
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Since i20.5 went live, I've actually gotten 2 more 50s (2 characters that had been hovering in their 40s for a while). Both have only taken T2 Alphas, and will not be progressing any further for the current Incarnate powers (I cannot rightly speak towards the powers that have yet to be released).
Until they increase the number of trees for each individual power, like they have done with Lore, I am off the Incarnate system for a while. When the system was first launched, I thought, "What a great way to create a more unique character, a way to set me apart from someone else who may have chosen the same power sets as me." But that really has not turned out to be the case. I have a much better chance of being the only player on a team who is using Psychic Blast, or Sonic Resonance, than I have a chance of being the only player using even the lesser-used Incarnate powers (Clarion, Cryonic Judgement, etc.). Granted, that is simple statistics at this point. All I am saying is that when I am contributing something relatively unique to a team, that's when I'm having the most fun.
In response to the OP:
I hear your strife. I can't stand grinding, the ends do not justify the means, in my opinion. But a population of people who want their power and want it nao (a.k.a. many players) will take the fastest path of least resistance, and right now, that is the BAF trial. Personally, I think Lemur Lad summed it up quite nicely:
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
some people are dumb
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@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
The Trials for the Coming Storm will redefine the awesome button
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Well, except for those of us who already dismissed the Incarnate system because we like raiding for lewtz about as much as we like undergoing medical procedures. We would C) be completely unaffected.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
You honestly think this is a GOOD idea? If anything it would just cause players to A) dismiss the Incarnate system entirely; B) quit the game because a decision that bad foreshadows further bad decisions.
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Anyone who is playing 7 days a week needs to get their fat butt off the chair and go for a walk.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Wow. I'm really glad you don't run the game because the sheer stupidity of what you posted ranks just under je_saist's "every tanker gets Resist Energies" post.
Let's do the math here, shall we? It's very simple. 3 Trials (Keyes, BAF, Lambda) 7 Days in a Week |
Besides, more trials are coming. Next month there will be 4 at least.
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I play for 2 hours a night, 7 days a week, family events notwithstanding.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
Anyone who is playing 7 days a week needs to get their fat butt off the chair and go for a walk.
Besides, more trials are coming. Next month there will be 4 at least. |
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Those of us who do a Lambda > BAF > Watch the league scatter when the leader suggests Keyes about once a week would also be completely unaffected.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
Well, except for those of us who already dismissed the Incarnate system because we like raiding for lewtz about as much as we like undergoing medical procedures. We would C) be completely unaffected.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
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On one hand, I don't think I'd ever run Keyes without having a quick self-heal. My widow has Aid Self, so she's run it a couple times and succeeded - somehow. When I can't see running it with my Invulnerability toons, then I know there's a problem. Undefendable and unresistable 50% damage on a wide open map is, uh, yeah, bad. I hope its a lesson the devs have taken to heart for upcoming iTrials.
On the other hand, said widow has run a bunch of other trials and has T3s in everything except a still locked Destiny. (I'm still IOing her out, so I'm saving inf for that instead of converting threads.) If I feel like running an iTrial, the option is there, so I'll go and run it if I want. If I don't, I don't. I don't feel the need to completely trick my 50s out as soon as they unlock the Alpha, heck I don't even have that many 50s to begin with.
The thing is the option is there to run iTrials and pick up the goodies if I want. I like having that option. If I don't, oh well, there's plenty else to do around the game.
And that, I think, is why CoH has been the MMORPG for me and not most other MMOs: There is no pressure to do anything in-game other than the pressure you put on yourself.