Letter writing, wells, menders and more
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-08-15 06:56 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I believe Silos brought them with him when he formed Ourobors. We DO know that the one in the Midnight Club was given to them by the Letter Writer, though given how antagonistic he is against Ouro, I doubt Silos is the one.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Side lore question - did we ever actually get a *source* for the crystal(s?)
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Ramiel makes some degree of sense, but I think people play up the "rift" between him and Silos. The worst they ever got was Silos essentially yelling at Ramiel for getting him all the way out there for no reason. Considering the man is already far past his tether, I would infer that the trip back even farther to Cimerora carries serious dangers for Silos, but is a trip he makes because of the Well's significance. When he goes to find it is not there, Silos is understandably upset for having put himself in danger for nothing and hurries to leave before whatever tends to cause one to get "absorbed by the time stream" affects him. That's all the animosity I see between the two.
There is also the fact that the letter writer is the one to give the crystal of fire and ice to the Midnighters, an act which ends up actually hampering Ramiel's ability to read the past and know that the Well has been moved before travelling. I sincerely hope we're not dealing with one of those "future self tries to hinder past self" nonsense time travel stories. The game's lore is tangled up enough as it is.
Also, the message wrapped around the Incarnate Shard says "Or depending on WHEN you are reading this, you may have met me just moments before." If this were Mender silos, he would know precisely when you are reading this and that you HAVE met him mere moments before. The other time travel stories are somewhat random, in that we're free to attempt them in any order, so the letter writer has no way to predict when we are going to be doing them in relation of when we will finally interact with him. Not so with the Shard story, because if he IS Ramiel, then we reach the shard through his direct intervention, which means that we WILL have met him just moments before, making the cryptic message just silly.
Also, I believe the implication of this message is that we will join the Letter Writer's posse some time in the future, so we may be returning to that cave at a later time as his allies, meaning we did indeed meet him mere moments ago THIS time, but not THAT time.
I haven't seen anything about FrostFire becoming a god (I seriously wish that character would stop showing up everywhere), but I doubt he's the letter writer. He's too dumb for it. Besides, the crystals of ice and fire are said to be one of eleven time travel methods, which Silos chose because these were the most reliable. I think, at least. It's from the I11 Trailer with the awesome voice actor for Silos, so it's been a while since I've seen it.
I'm not sure if it even CAN be one of the Midnighters, considering the letter writer clearly describes them as "they," rather than "we," and claims he is the one who "gave" them the crystal. That's not "acquired" it for them, not "found" it for them, nothing that implies that the procured said crystal as part of the group, but rather that he, as an independent entity, gave the crystal to the Midnighters.
Truth be told, I wouldn't be surprised if he were Holsten Armitage. Yeah, remember him?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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something something Nemesis plot something something
OK, if that doesn't have you hitting something in frustration, perhaps it really is Prometheus? He does like to give gifts of fire...
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Wal-mart, last Saturday. He was a rollback special. $7.99.
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Originally Posted by reiella
I must have missed something but when/where was Prometheus discounted?
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Premetheus seems like too much of an arrogant dick to go around creating secret conspiracies, recruiting his own quirky miniboss team or leave cryptic letters for people. He's the sort who shows up, slams his fist on the table, yells at you about what needs to be done, then stands back and waits for you to go ask him if you could please help out. The letter-writer shows a bit too much humility and compassion (in his own way) for players and indeed quite a bit of trust in that you won't simply walk over to Silos and say "Hey, look at what I found in a crate in the past!" and have him go "Oh, THAT guy! Then I know how to find him."|
Originally Posted by reiella
I must have missed something but when/where was Prometheus discounted?
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As a point of fact, I don't think Prometheus is in any way, shape or form part of the game's storyline. The writers needed a plot device to tell players about the Incarnate Trials and since their current one was on loan to Sheep in the Big City, they came up with our giant Angry Smurph.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Friend online said she thought it might actually be the flame inside the crystal of Fire and Ice itself somehow.
*shrug*
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Erg, that's true. Guess I'm back to default answer one then: Nemesis plot.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Premetheus seems like too much of an arrogant dick to go around creating secret conspiracies, recruiting his own quirky miniboss team or leave cryptic letters for people. He's the sort who shows up, slams his fist on the table, yells at you about what needs to be done, then stands back and waits for you to go ask him if you could please help out. The letter-writer shows a bit too much humility and compassion (in his own way) for players and indeed quite a bit of trust in that you won't simply walk over to Silos and say "Hey, look at what I found in a crate in the past!" and have him go "Oh, THAT guy! Then I know how to find him."
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I'm sticking with the Lady Grey and/or the Dark Watcher. Everything that has happened so far makes it appear that Vanguard is the group looking to fight ALL threats external to our world and dimension. I-21 shows that Vanguard is again going to be on the front lines against the Battalion, which is certainly the Coming Storm.
Finally, Serpent Drummers arc shows that the Lady Grey and Mender Silos may have had a long animosity in the old days.
The only thing that concerns me about Lady Grey is that Dean MacArthur's bit about the person being male. But I could see Dark Watcher or another agent handling that bit.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I'm so on this page.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I'm sticking with the Lady Grey and/or the Dark Watcher. Everything that has happened so far makes it appear that Vanguard is the group looking to fight ALL threats external to our world and dimension. I-21 shows that Vanguard is again going to be on the front lines against the Battalion, which is certainly the Coming Storm.
Finally, Serpent Drummers arc shows that the Lady Grey and Mender Silos may have had a long animosity in the old days. The only thing that concerns me about Lady Grey is that Dean MacArthur's bit about the person being male. But I could see Dark Watcher or another agent handling that bit. |
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This is my favorite theory in terms of what I think would be the coolest reveal. However, I think it's much more likely it'll turn out to be Prometheus, buzzkill though that may be.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I'm sticking with the Lady Grey and/or the Dark Watcher. Everything that has happened so far makes it appear that Vanguard is the group looking to fight ALL threats external to our world and dimension. I-21 shows that Vanguard is again going to be on the front lines against the Battalion, which is certainly the Coming Storm.
Finally, Serpent Drummers arc shows that the Lady Grey and Mender Silos may have had a long animosity in the old days. The only thing that concerns me about Lady Grey is that Dean MacArthur's bit about the person being male. But I could see Dark Watcher or another agent handling that bit. |
My theory (copied from another thread):
My working theory: Nemesis is an Incarnate, and he has spent his long life [perhaps extended by Incarnate power] on the "Slow" incarnate path (like players) and the Well has no control over him. Mender Silos is Nemesis (obviously) but not from as far in the future as he claims. He's been orchestrating events through Ouroboros to make sure he comes out on top of... well, everything, including the Coming Storm. Perhaps he learned about the Battalion from Twilight's Son, who allegedly sold out all the Kheldians to them in his time. Perhaps, eventually, Nemesis' patience and incredible will allow him to direct the force of the Well, and it's his voice we hear taking over Incarnates.
Obviously, this doesn't account for who the Letter Writer really is and, truthfully, we have no indication outside of "male". I'm amused by the idea of Frostfire, though making that the answer would just be silly. I also doubt it is Vanguard, though Lady Grey does know more than she's telling. It's implied that she and Nemesis have known each other for a very long time. We also know that the Writer is gathering a super-team to fight the
Coming Storm, since he doesn't trust Ouro to do it right (though he does admit they are stalling/slowing it), and that the Writer wanted us to go to Cimerora [because he gifted the crystal to the Midnighters], presumably to stop the Path of the Dark from taking root there. Could a world where Nictus took over in Roman times attract the Battalion (which runs on Kheldian life force) earlier? I assume Requiem has a stance on the fight against the Battalion for this reason. Preatorian Requiem is specifically mentioned by the Writer, though almost in passing. But I'm not sure we can assume anything important enough to be in these letters is just "in passing".
Anyway, it's all just theory. There's no way to know, and we'll probably all be wrong. It just seems obvious that Nemesis is neck-deep in a plot revolving around/caused by/causing the Coming Storm- not just because "he's Nemesis and he has all the plots, forever" but because he's the real villain of this game. Ever thought it would be impossible for someone to have THIS many plots going at once? How much easier would that be if he could travel back in time and retry taking over the world as many times as he wants? Plus, we know that Nemesis has a vendetta against his multi-dimensional counterparts. Seems like we're leading up to a "Crisis on Infinite Earths" event, though farther down the line.
Lady Grey seems to be presented more as a Victorian woman who has survived into the present day based on her vampire powers and maybe because she's a "slow incarnate" herself.
I don't think her writing/thinking/speech styles match the letter writer. S/he is much more modern. That aside, I just don't think that sort of clandestine "ghost in the machine" stuff is really her bag. She'd use a more direct approach to accomplish her goals.
How about it being yourself? You become an Incarnate and live a very long time, going through the Coming Storm by teaming with an older you and the various people he has chosen, so when you get really old, you go back and write the letters to set yourself up to go along with yourself when you go back in time to gather the various folks like Protean and yourself. 
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I've always had this crazy theory that it's Hamidon. If only because of this little tidbit from the very first letter you find:
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And in Mender Ramiel's first mission you fight it out with a bunch of Archvillains on the remains of the Citadel of Ouroboros, halfway sunk into the sea, while a bunch of Hamidon tentacles flail about, which would kind of imply to me that all the other echoes you fight bought it already, ruling them out. | I warn you: do not openly question Ouroboros. That would be foolish. I simply ask that you search for more of my letters and seek me in the pillar. When the time is right, I will make myself known. You will either be at my side, tearing down the enclave or you will be buried under its ruins as it falls into the sea. The choice is yours. |
Granted that's a big logical jump to make, but I do like to think of that mission as taking place in a future where the Hamidon won.
Has anyone ever actually seen Hamidon Tentacles in Ramiel's arc. I realize one of the artist put the tentacles in the concept art, but after 7 trips through that mission I've never seen any tentacles.
I am following all of this except the Lady Grey he stuff? When was she a he?
I always thought she was the Lady of the Lake, the one that gave Arthur (and then Hero 1) the sword. Though I can't remember what ever made me think that. Being around 7 years some things are a bit foggy.
Hmm... maybe I should go redo some old content... heh
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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I never saw the tentacles as specifically "Hamidon", but they are something to note. As for the Echoes, there could be several theories there too: a Rularuu/Shadow Shard connection, or perhaps they are echoes generated by the Well of those who have given it/taken from its power, summoned to defend the Well from Incarnate You, who has obviously soaked up a heaping pile of Power. However, it is my understanding that the Well wants to give you all of that power so that when you die and pass into legend the Well gets that power back tenfold [which gives another interesting take on what's going on in Cimerora].
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Originally Posted by Mr_Squid
I've always had this crazy theory that it's Hamidon. If only because of this little tidbit from the very first letter you find:
And in Mender Ramiel's first mission you fight it out with a bunch of Archvillains on the remains of the Citadel of Ouroboros, halfway sunk into the sea, while a bunch of Hamidon tentacles flail about, which would kind of imply to me that all the other echoes you fight bought it already, ruling them out. Granted that's a big logical jump to make, but I do like to think of that mission as taking place in a future where the Hamidon won. |
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We were saying that the Letter Writer is a "he" based on Dean McArther's story arc, but Lady Grey is a she so she at least didn't directly give Dean the letter to you.|
Originally Posted by Draugadan
I am following all of this except the Lady Grey he stuff? When was she a he?
I always thought she was the Lady of the Lake, the one that gave Arthur (and then Hero 1) the sword. Though I can't remember what ever made me think that. Being around 7 years some things are a bit foggy. Hmm... maybe I should go redo some old content... heh |
It's never specifically said that Lady Grey is The Lady of the Lake, but it is somewhat implied and it was never DISproven, either.
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The style of the writing is also very un-feminine - women don't write in that way |
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Lady Grey seems to be presented more as a Victorian woman who has survived into the present day based on her vampire powers and maybe because she's a "slow incarnate" herself.
I don't think her writing/thinking/speech styles match the letter writer. S/he is much more modern. That aside, I just don't think that sort of clandestine "ghost in the machine" stuff is really her bag. She'd use a more direct approach to accomplish her goals. |
@Golden Girl
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Yep. I see them everytime I do that mission. They are in a ring around crashed Oro. |
Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
Has anyone ever actually seen Hamidon Tentacles in Ramiel's arc. I realize one of the artist put the tentacles in the concept art, but after 7 trips through that mission I've never seen any tentacles.
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Can't attack them though. I have tried, just can't.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
The Well has also been described as being "directed" - the Mysterious Letter Writer could be linked to that.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Hmmm...more like this?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The style of the writing is also very un-feminine - women don't write in that way
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I warn you: do not openly question Ouroboros. That would be foolish. I simply ask that you search for more of my letters and seek me in the pillar. When the time is right, I will make myself known.  You will either be at my side, tearing down the enclave or you will be buried under its ruins as it falls into the sea. The choice is yours.
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The writing doesn't match, but then, if you're trying to keep your identity secret, especially from a person who regularly runs around in your headquarters, you wouldn't try to make it sound like you. As for the thinking, I think this is exactly how Lady Grey thinks. She and the Dark Watcher are always on the lookout for threats from Human kind. She's almost certainly a 'slow' path Incarnate herself and clearly has a history with Nemesis. |
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Lady Grey seems to be presented more as a Victorian woman who has survived into the present day based on her vampire powers and maybe because she's a "slow incarnate" herself.
I don't think her writing/thinking/speech styles match the letter writer. S/he is much more modern. That aside, I just don't think that sort of clandestine "ghost in the machine" stuff is really her bag. She'd use a more direct approach to accomplish her goals. |
The letter writer suggests in some of the letters that you could already be by his or her side. Given the 'natural' order where a character at level 25 goes to Ouroborus and then later at level 35 joins Vanguard, that seems plausible.
I have also been thinking why would the letter writer give the crystal to the Midnighters. I see a couple of reasons. Perhaps there's some kinship and commonality of purpose between the letter writer and the Midnighters. Who is the Vanguard's first major foe, the Rikti. What is the primary point of the hero Midnighter arc? Opposing the Rikti. That's one reason. Second, it seems necessary that the crystal be somewhere that it can't be found easily. As stated, everyone and their brother walks around in the Vanguard base. While many of our heroes and villains are Midnighters, you have to be invited. So it's a safe place to stage the 'correction' of Requiem's nonsense in Cimerora.
I'm still on Lady Grey and/or Dark Watcher. I see enough evidence that it could be either of these blatantly obvious Incarnates.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Why? |
Originally Posted by Mr_Samoa
I'm amused by the idea of Frostfire, though making that the answer would just be silly.
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You're thinking of him, I believe, in the little bit that we see - the Hollows arc and a few tip missions, where he's really just a lowbie villain/hero. I only mention it (aside from the powers) because of the high level Villain alignment mission... where you're living forever, having the power (or half the power) of a god - but he's been fighting you for, what, thousands of years with the same power, finally falling because of "Nethermatter?"
That's a fair bit of power - then again, the description there *does* sound very well-ish. Though I'm not sure why, if that's the case, he and you would only be "half-powered." After all, Cole and Richter aren't exactly half-powered - other than self limitation.
(Note I'm not really arguing for it *being* him, just bringing up some information that would give him power enough to do... much more than we're used to.)
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Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
Has anyone ever actually seen Hamidon Tentacles in Ramiel's arc. I realize one of the artist put the tentacles in the concept art, but after 7 trips through that mission I've never seen any tentacles.
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Not that I think anyone's really been thinking about it - but has anyone tried working out where we sit now with the identity of the Letter Writer, how they work with (or against) Ouroboros, fit in with Incarnate lore (and possibly the Midnighters) and the like?
No, I haven't sat down to work this out. This is more idle musing to start conversation.
Possibilities -
- The letter writer is the Well. Blah. I really hope not. Aside from "You're getting letters from something that's not supposed to be sentient but on the other hand is" and the whole mess that brings up. Plus the Well doesn't seem to be "gathering" people - it's kind of against the way it works. Which means, being the most bland choice, it's probably the case.
- Mender Ramiel. Maybe I read too much into it, but there definitely seems to be a rift there between him and Nem... er... Silos. Enough for him to split off at some point and do what he thinks needs to be done? Given we first/later meet/met him via a mini-Crystal, it fits the "Look for me in the Crystal" line.
- Midnighters. Outside possibility, though they may have a rogue like Darrin Wade who's NOT out to bring Ruularu back. Mostly from the fact we know they do have at least one crystal. Even if the Menders know about it.
- Frostfire. Throwing this in as idle musing. Just from (a) the future power we know he has (half-a-god) thanks to a villain alignment mission, and (b) the crystal name. Ice and Fire? That's frosty-boy's description. (Nothing else really *fits* him though.)
Side lore question - did we ever actually get a *source* for the crystal(s?)