Netflix/Spotify: is it legal to...
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Bramphousian,
Posted on: 2011-08-05 19:47 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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Yes, but not for this reason. |
Originally Posted by Durakken
Am I just crazy?
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The sooner people realize that everyone is crazy, the sooner people can make sense of the world.
The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
Do these services let you have the actual mp3/avi file on your system or do you need to be logged into them in order to view/listen them? I think that's the important thing.
I think its like being able to check a movie from the local library (which is free) versus ripping a copy under the table.
The major difference is Netflix and Spotify pay the studios money to "stream" that material with the idea that the stream isn't recordable by the subscriber thereby not making a copy of it.
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Yes you are crazy,
Essentially you are only renting access to the Netflix and Spotify libraries. That is at the core of why they charge you a monthly fee for streaming videos and music from them.
This rental fee does not actually give you ownership rights to any of that material. If you want the video/song permanently on your computer then you need to buy it. Depending on who you buy it from the price can be very reasonable.
Now to get technical Netflix and Spotify pay licensing fees to the studios for any media that they stream to you, thus the monthly fee they inturn charge you. That fee must cover the streaming costs, the storage and network connection costs, staff costs, and a decent profit to pocket.
Now if you are talking about a DVD or CD that you own then yes you can digitize and use it yourself as much as you want so long as you don't make money off of that use, or let the physical version out of your hands.
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It's almost like radio that way.... Hey....
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
The major difference is Netflix and Spotify pay the studios money to "stream" that material with the idea that the stream isn't recordable by the subscriber thereby not making a copy of it.
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Access is access to my mind.|
Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
Yes you are crazy,
Essentially you are only renting access to the Netflix and Spotify libraries. That is at the core of why they charge you a monthly fee for streaming videos and music from them. This rental fee does not actually give you ownership rights to any of that material. If you want the video/song permanently on your computer then you need to buy it. Depending on who you buy it from the price can be very reasonable. Now to get technical Netflix and Spotify pay licensing fees to the studios for any media that they stream to you, thus the monthly fee they inturn charge you. That fee must cover the streaming costs, the storage and network connection costs, staff costs, and a decent profit to pocket. Now if you are talking about a DVD or CD that you own then yes you can digitize and use it yourself as much as you want so long as you don't make money off of that use, or let the physical version out of your hands. |
It seems like the laws make no sense when you think about data as data. Access is essentially one database reading another and to varying degrees copying it. With this viewpoint I don't see how getting it from one source or another makes any substantial difference. Especially if I have granted access to whatever data. To me it's akin to owning a dvd, and instead of watching that dvd you watch your friend's who lives in the same house as you.
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Don't try and bring logic into this; most of the people responsible for licensing these services and making the laws surrounding them are still totally stuck in the physical world with no real comprehension of how technologies such as the interwebs have changed the way that people want to (and can) consume media. A few people get it - Spotify are one of the better ones on the whole - but they're usually hamstrung by the licensing agreements they have to sign with the content providers in order to be able to offer their material for streaming/download.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
Access is access to my mind.
It seems like the laws make no sense when you think about data as data. Access is essentially one database reading another and to varying degrees copying it. With this viewpoint I don't see how getting it from one source or another makes any substantial difference. Especially if I have granted access to whatever data. To me it's akin to owning a dvd, and instead of watching that dvd you watch your friend's who lives in the same house as you. |
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lol yeah... I mean isn't it now in the law that when you buy a dvd you don't "own" a copy but rather own a license to access that data. If that is true and is true of all these different types of media then by that logic by having a netflix and spotify account i own a license to access any data that is in their library... how I access it or in what form should not make a difference...|
Originally Posted by The_Spad_EU
Don't try and bring logic into this; most of the people responsible for licensing these services and making the laws surrounding them are still totally stuck in the physical world with no real comprehension of how technologies such as the interwebs have changed the way that people want to (and can) consume media. A few people get it - Spotify are one of the better ones on the whole - but they're usually hamstrung by the licensing agreements they have to sign with the content providers in order to be able to offer their material for streaming/download.
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This is a scary thing to a degree because like I mentioned, brains to me are more or less just databases. Imagine a company trying to argue that you don't have the licensing rights to a song, movie, or whatever any more and them trying to petition the government to have it removed from a person's brain. Further, with people trying to figure out how the brain works and people being patent happy imagine them patenting the visual cortex or another part of the brain trying to charge you for it's usage... That's a scary thought.
It is illegal and immoral. When you sign up for Netflix you agree not to copy movies and shows. It is one thing to use a live feed to watch a movie, where it is limited and removed after use. It is another to make a copy to keep even after netflix lost the rights to distribute.
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| Content shall not be reproduced or used without express written permission from Netflix or its licensors. You agree to adhere to the restrictions set forth under "Netflix streaming software" and "Limitations on Use." You agree not to decompile, reverse engineer or disassemble any software or other products or processes accessible through the Netflix service, not to insert any code or product or manipulate the content of the Netflix service in any way, and not to use any data mining, data gathering or extraction method. Netflix reserves the right to terminate your membership hereunder if Netflix, in its sole and absolute discretion, believes that you are in violation of Netflix software restrictions, restrictions against copying movies & TV shows provided to you by us, or other unauthorized copying or use of our proprietary content in violation of the copyrights of Netflix and its licensors. Netflix does not promote, foster or condone the copying of movies &TV shows or any other infringing activity. The use of the Netflix service, including movies &TV shows made available to you by us, is solely for your personal and non-commercial use. Please see the instructions at the end of these Terms of Use for notifying us of the presence of any allegedly infringing content of the Netflix service, including any on the Netflix website and user interfaces. |
Dirges
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It is, in fact, breach of contract at best. It is not illegal and, well, moral relativism allows a fair amount of flexibility on the "immoral" side of things but personally I wouldn't say that it is.
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Originally Posted by Dirges
It is illegal and immoral. When you sign up for Netflix you agree not to copy movies and shows. It is one thing to use a live feed to watch a movie, where it is limited and removed after use. It is another to make a copy to keep even after netflix lost the rights to distribute.
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Breaking a contract can be and often is illegal.
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Originally Posted by The_Spad_EU
It is, in fact, breach of contract at best. It is not illegal and, well, moral relativism allows a fair amount of flexibility on the "immoral" side of things but personally I wouldn't say that it is.
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You are welcome to hang out at my house today.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Access is access to my mind.
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There is something important you are missing|
Originally Posted by Bramphousian
You are welcome to hang out at my house today.
Do you feel privileged enough to enter through that open window next Thursday? |
A more accurate analogy would be you own a pizzeria and you say I can eat all the pizza I want and you set up a delivery method but instead of taking a pizza from this method of delivery I ask one of your employees to get me a pizza that came from the exact same spot the other pizzas were coming from.
As pointed out though modern law, if I understand correctly, has it that you don't OWN a copy of the data, you own a LICENSE. Now if this is true then any license within the library of a digital distribution system that you have an account and access to you should then have a license for all that material. It doesn't matter whether it is a copy or anything like that.
I'm all for saving music and stuff you want but you must understand; you ARE a thief and no amount of babbling will change it.
you cooky americans and your moronic laws
oh why I think your american laws are moronic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_sharing_in_Canada<----how it should be
Honestly if they didn't want us doing this they shouldn't have made it so easy. Technology is a PANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKE a guess at least it's harder to rob banks in todays day and age
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Bah, you haven't lived till your secret corprate masters have twisted all the laws in your country purely for profit and evil!
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Originally Posted by Lucky666
oh why I think your american laws are moronic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_sharing_in_Canada<----how it should be Honestly if they didn't want us doing this they shouldn't have made it so easy. Technology is a PANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKE a guess at least it's harder to rob banks in todays day and age |
------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------
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That doesn't apply to your netflix account. You are altering the use. They make available a live stream, you then use a third party software to copy. I also would like to know how you delete your copy when they no longer have a license to stream, which can change at any moment.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
There is something important you are missing
A more accurate analogy would be you own a pizzeria and you say I can eat all the pizza I want and you set up a delivery method but instead of taking a pizza from this method of delivery I ask one of your employees to get me a pizza that came from the exact same spot the other pizzas were coming from. As pointed out though modern law, if I understand correctly, has it that you don't OWN a copy of the data, you own a LICENSE. Now if this is true then any license within the library of a digital distribution system that you have an account and access to you should then have a license for all that material. It doesn't matter whether it is a copy or anything like that. |
Dirges
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Since a contract is usually considered a legal document enforceable in court, I would say breaking a contract is illegal. Which is different then criminal. Also by breaking a contract you are breaking your word, and considered unethical. Basically lying for personal gain. Neither may be large things, but it doesn't change it from being both illegal or immoral.
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Originally Posted by The_Spad_EU
It is, in fact, breach of contract at best. It is not illegal and, well, moral relativism allows a fair amount of flexibility on the "immoral" side of things but personally I wouldn't say that it is.
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Dirges
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You're the one talking about copying from netflix, not me. I'm talking about having a separate copy from whatever source and watching that instead of watching it via netflix.
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Originally Posted by Dirges
That doesn't apply to your netflix account. You are altering the use. They make available a live stream, you then use a third party software to copy. I also would like to know how you delete your copy when they no longer have a license to stream, which can change at any moment.
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Here is the simple answer, at least in my opinion.
Do you plan to delete the music file or movie if you cancel your subscription to spotify/netflix?
If you will then I see no problem with it. In fact it could save you from going over your bandwidth cap if for instance you want to watch the same movie several times in a row or have music constantly streaming 24 hours a day.
If you keep the files however it's piracy and is morally wrong... mostly.
The reason I say mostly is that RIAA is actually the biggest pirate in existence when it comes to stealing from artists.
How much do they steal? Take a look at this
Edit: Point I'm making here is that loss of record sales really isn't going to hurt a music artist who goes through traditional publishing outlets. They make their money from concerts.
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In which case the question becomes, "Where did you get that separate copy?"|
Originally Posted by Durakken
You're the one talking about copying from netflix, not me. I'm talking about having a separate copy from whatever source and watching that instead of watching it via netflix.
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Option 1) I bought the DVD/CD/track/etc from a different retailer.
This just makes you an idiot for paying netflix to view something you already have.
Option 2) I downloaded it online, but also delete them once I stop watching them on netflix.
This one still makes you a pirate, but you also followed the rules. So, still a pirate, but not too bad of one. Or good.
Option 3) I downloaded it online. I don't delete once done with netflix.
Yeah, you're a pirate. Break out the rum and eyepatch.
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The ability to watch on a streaming service like Netflix has no impact on the legality or illegality of the other copy you have. I don't see why this even needs to be asked. It's like asking, oh, "I watch reruns of Seinfeld on TV, how does that impact the legality of the copy I stole from the store a month ago?" It doesn't. That copy is still stolen. You aren't "licensed" or "morally cleared" or however you want to put it for that copy just because it's also on TV and you're paying the cable company.
So.. I got to thinking, now that I have access to millions of songs, movies, shows, etc free and legal is it illegal to have a ripped mp3/avi of the same song/show on my pc that I could watch/listen to via those services freely and legally? Is it immoral? and why?
Im literally just accessing the same content in a different way, content that I have free and/or legal access too as much as i want...to me it doesn't make any sense for it to be illegal to have a ripped mp3 when that same song is available to free on free service...
Am I just crazy?