Is COH: Freedom Putting the Cart Before the Horse?


8-J

 

Posted

Before I get into this, let me state something very clearly. First, I do not think Freedom, or the players it will hopefully bring are a bad thing. I posted quite some time ago pondering the question of whether this may be something that we'd be seeing. Furthermore, I like most of what I have seen about how this is all being implemented.

I do however, wonder if the timing may be off given the current state of the player-base. In most MMOs where there are two or more factions, the players are, at least somewhat, evenly distributed between the two sides. In CoH, this is far from true. The discrepancy between the two sides is quite large.

Why is this a problem? Because first impressions are going to go a very long way in determining whether or not a new free player will turn into a VIP subscriber. Let's take our new player, who will name John. John logs into the tutorial, goes through and chooses to become a Villain. He exits into the Rogue Isles and sees one of two things:

  1. A mostly deserted zone where he feels like he's playing a single player RPG.
  2. A reasonable number of players, but most of whom are new, like him, and therefore can't form a team.

In the second case, some of the players may be tempted to subscribe so they can form a team. Others will simply walk away with a bad first impression of the game.

In the first case, a much larger number of players will simply walk away without even considering the possibility of subscribing.

Some small percentage may decide to see if things are any different on the hero side, but a large number will simply assume that things are just as deserted there.

It seems to me that it would have made sense to try to look at why there is such a discrepancy between the number of players on the two sides, and sit down with the community and try to address them to encourage a more even player distribution.


- Garielle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty_Femme View Post
I said "ur" which is not a word. It's a sound dumb people make when you ask them to spell out "you are".

 

Posted

You do realize more than new players will be playing this game right? Or that starter zones, ie Atlas, tend to have a number of people in them?


 

Posted

This is a good point. I don't know much about other servers, but Victory redside can sometimes feel deathly quiet.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp View Post
You do realize more than new players will be playing this game right? Or that starter zones, ie Atlas, tend to have a number of people in them?
My point Amy is that a large portion of the existing players (the ones that would be able to form teams, help new players out, etc) are on the Hero side.


- Garielle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosty_Femme View Post
I said "ur" which is not a word. It's a sound dumb people make when you ask them to spell out "you are".

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garielle View Post
Why is this a problem? Because first impressions are going to go a very long way in determining whether or not a new free player will turn into a VIP subscriber. Let's take our new player, who will name John. John logs into the tutorial, goes through and chooses to become a Villain. He exits into the Rogue Isles and sees one of two things:
I think it's faulty logic to assume that most, if not all new players will start off on a villain. Also; I won't pretend to know what other servers are like redside, but I find it hard to believe EVERY server has a dead Rogue Isles.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garielle View Post
It seems to me that it would have made sense to try to look at why there is such a discrepancy between the number of players on the two sides, and sit down with the community and try to address them to encourage a more even player distribution.
The majority of people simply prefer to be good rather than evil - and there's no way to change that.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garielle View Post
My point Amy is that a large portion of the existing players (the ones that would be able to form teams, help new players out, etc) are on the Hero side.
Trial players already face these issues.* The only difference in Freedom is that there will be more people going everywhere. Because of this, VIPs and people able to lead teams will more likely be there as well. VIP players need to level their characters and certainly ones with new power sets. Not everybody PLs using AE.

* This assumes the current version of trial account limitations being ok.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garielle View Post
My point Amy is that a large portion of the existing players (the ones that would be able to form teams, help new players out, etc) are on the Hero side.
The new starting zone for both factions is Galaxy City, so that's not a problem.


 

Posted

Is it a potential concern? Yes, to some degree it is. Is it something the devs can fix? Probably not. In some ways the new tutorial IS a work around for this problem, allowing people to start any (non-EAT) AT on either side eliminates the need to spend 20 levels on the "wrong" side and allows a player to choose which side to start in independent of desired AT.

Now the issue you bring up is the observable discrepancy in population between Redside and Blueside. While this is unfortunate I'm not sure it's something the devs can/should fix. The problem is that the split is somewhat inherent to the theme of the game. It's the nature of the Superhero genre that more people dream about being Batman than dream about being the Joker and this reflects itself in game.

In MMOs that do manage to maintain balanced population it's normally because the devs make sure to present both sides as having their good points and their bad points so it doesn't feel like one side is the "good guys" and the other is the "bad guys" (there is an exception to this which is when the game is based on a license where the bad guys already have a strong fan following and can afford to be deliciously evil without losing players). Now, the devs did attempt to do something like this with the Praetorian arcs, there are "good guys" and "bad guys" on both sides of the Resistance/Loyalist split which helps keep things in balance. However the CoH primal universe is based on Golden Age superhero morality so Statesman will always be the hero and Recluse is always the villain.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
The new starting zone for both factions is Galaxy City, so that's not a problem.
thats not a starting zone thats a tutorial

the starting zones will still be atlas and mercy


 

Posted

edit: was a multipost by accident


 

Posted

Quote:
and sit down with the community and try to address them to encourage a more even player distribution.
Content is content, players play what they want to play.

No amount of cajoling or talking on the part of the developers is going to change what players want to change.

If the developers even TRIED to say "you must play Villain-Content" or "You must play Hero Content", or tried to do any kind of "player distribution", the number of players canceling their subscriptions would immediately remove any financial benefit from CoH: Freedom

Quote:
I do however, wonder if the timing may be off given the current state of the player-base. In most MMOs where there are two or more factions, the players are, at least somewhat, evenly distributed between the two sides.
And... why is this?

It's because most "other" MMO's try to enforce an active Player-versus-Player content scenario. Players who are on a lesser-population find themselves granted buffs for being in the minority. In severe cases the majority-population will find itself actively debuffed.

City of Heroes has no such Player-versus-Player mechanic, and nor does it need one.

Quote:
In the second case, some of the players may be tempted to subscribe so they can form a team. Others will simply walk away with a bad first impression of the game.
You do realize that new players will either need to start in Praetoria or Galaxy City Correct?

You also realize that new players starting in Galaxy City will need to pick Paragon City or the Rogue Isles when they leave right?

Galaxy City is the first impression players will receive, not Mercy Island or Atlas Park.

Those zones will be their second impression.

Quote:
It seems to me that it would have made sense to try to look at why there is such a discrepancy between the number of players on the two sides
And here we go into the topsy-turvy world of what players are comfortable with playing. Mechanically there is no difference from playing the Villain-Content over playing Hero-Content, and since Going Rogue brought the ability to change what side any archetype and power-set can be on, we can safely say that mechanical game design probably does not factor into a player's decision to play through Villain Content or Hero Content.

We can instead focus on the soft and undefinable factors, such as story content. Believe it or not, playing a "villain" can make players feel incredibly uncomfortable. Just look at the feedback given when the Tips missions were first introduced, and then the Vigilante to Villain tips were added in. Some players where a little more than disturbed over what their avatar did / was doing.

Then there are communities such a Supergroups and VillainGroups, or global channels, membership which can be defined, but not explained. Why does one group of players get along with each other, but another group of players does not?

Then there are legacy concerns. Villain-Side content is a decidedly more narrow experience than Hero-Side content, and in many cases, far more repetitive. Case in point being the newspaper system. It is functionally impossible in CoV to level up without, at some point, having to run the Newspaper missions. There is no chain of contacts from level 1 to level 50 that provides a coherent storyline or process of a storyline. While in terms of total content, CoV may have parity to CoH, as a quick trip to Ouroborus would indicate, actually getting to CoV's content generally requires more hoop jumping. Will this change with the "find a contact" or whatever feature in I21? Maybe, maybe not. I don't know.

At the end of the day, Villain-Side content is going to be Villain-side content, and hero-side content is going to be Hero-side content.

Players will play what they want to play.

If somebody wants to play villain-content, they will play villain-content. If a player wants to play hero-content, they will play Hero content.

Speaking for myself, I will fight tooth and nail to fight any attempts by any players to try and convince the developers that some over-arching system must be in place to force players to choose one side or another for the sake of "equalizing player faction sizes"


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garielle View Post
Let's take our new player, who will name John. John logs into the tutorial, goes through and chooses to become a Villain. He exits into the Rogue Isles and sees one of two things:
  1. A mostly deserted zone where he feels like he's playing a single player RPG.
  2. A reasonable number of players, but most of whom are new, like him, and therefore can't form a team.

In the second case, some of the players may be tempted to subscribe so they can form a team. Others will simply walk away with a bad first impression of the game.

In the first case, a much larger number of players will simply walk away without even considering the possibility of subscribing.
In the first case, if a large number of players are walking away, this wouldn't be the first case but the second case. The first case specifically requires very few people exiting the tutorial as a villain.

A free player that wants to team can spend a couple bucks and become permanently a premium player for life, whereupon they gain access to private tells to seek out potential team mates.

In any case, the best way to address the problem of low population red side in the short term would be to get more players. Somehow magically making the red side very attractive without adding new players would, under best case circumstances, simply decimate the blue side of players.


[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]

In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)

 

Posted

When I was on trial accnt 1 yr ago, I made a hero and a villain. On hero side, I did the lvl 1-5 missions and died multiple times getting to where I needed to go. Frustrated, I hung around liberty and asked for a team. This got me into a sewer team. I leveled to 10 and decided to play vill.
Villside lvl 1-5 missions were nice and close by and I eventually got into my first bank mish ala Mongoose. The team I was with was very nice and told me how to make wakies from insp. I also discovered that leaders like healers so I made a healer and got invited to a lot of teams.
I played my hero again and got invited to a couple of teams whose members rage quit after a wipe or 2. I went back to villside and made it my home when I subbed.
Basically, if nobody leads the low level teams or invites toons lvl 1-30, then the F2P folks are limited to soloing. It really isn't up to the devs to 'balance' who plays which side. I made the choice to go vill because of the people I teamed with. If the new player values good social interaction, it will be because of the teams s/he plays with.


 

Posted

Anecdotaly speaking...

I've experienced a situation where a development team tried through various methods to encourage players to play one faction vs another faction, for the purpose of balance. Now in the situation I've experienced, it was key to the way the game worked, crucial in fact, on a level that does not apply to CoH.

What was said about players playing what players want to play usually rings true. Inflated incentive can only do so much to entice people to do something they would otherwise not do.

Of course we will always continue to develop compelling content for both factions to play in addition to our continued development of co-op content. We do anticipate that many of the new players will be very interested in the experience of playing a nefarious villain rather than a sappy do-gooder .


Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios

 

Posted

There's no Tol Barad in CoH...

Obligatory; FPAARN


Tech Support Rule #1 - They will lie to you. Usually intentionally.

 

Posted

Interesting.

It would depend on the server, but the early villain zones like Mercy and Oakes don't have much traffic in them. Cap is the Villain version of Atlas. At least its much easier to get there now.


H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ura Hero View Post
There's no Tol Barad in CoH...
There's no PvP in the champagne room?


 

Posted

These days, I only play Hero-side. I'm just not interested in playing a Villain. I have some Villain characters, but they're just collecting dust. Incentives wouldn't do anything to change that fact - I just don't want to spend my free time that way.


Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP

Remember kids, crack is whack!

Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
Anecdotaly speaking...

I've experienced a situation where a development team tried through various methods to encourage players to play one faction vs another faction, for the purpose of balance. Now in the situation I've experienced, it was key to the way the game worked, crucial in fact, on a level that does not apply to CoH.
Down with the Terran Cockroaches! Begone with the Conglomeration Anew!


Forever the Vanu will Reign!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
We do anticipate that many of the new players will be very interested in the experience of playing a nefarious villain rather than a sappy do-gooder .
That's not sap - that's the milk of human kindness


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
That's not sap - that's the milk of human kindness
Whatever it is, it stinks.


@Quasadu

"We must prepare for DOOM and hope for FREEM." - SirFrederick

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasadu View Post
Whatever it is, it stinks.
That's because the Hero just defeated a monster down in the sewers.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ura Hero View Post
There's no Tol Barad in CoH...
Perhaps I should have said, I've experienced from the dev side .

IOW, waaaaaaayy off the mark.


Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios