Art Poll: Signature Characters
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2011-08-01 13:23 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Well, I saw one person diss her, and one person sort of defend her, and everyone else doesn't bother to mention her at all. Anyway, Clamor is my favorite AV. She works great as a Freak leader.
@Johnstone & @Johnstone 2
ediblePoly.com
All my characters
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Animation is indeed an art issue, and the way characters move (or don't) interact with each other profoundly affects gameplay. |
Originally Posted by Liquid
That's something I wondered about too. I've never heard the word "static" used to criticize the art assets of Hamidon, just the gameplay aspects of him. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the usage of the word, but it seems like a weird statement to make about art assets. Wouldn't every NPC in the game have static art assets, aside from auras?
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Just for fun, let me run some hypothetical update ideas past you and see what you think. As a thought experiment only, let's say we were going to update the primal Hamidon model. Again, absolutely no plans for this, but it's an interesting topic to think about. You've expressed a desire to maintain the character's "amoeba-ness," and I whole-heartedly agree with you. That said, there are ways we could potentially make him more visually interesting while staying completely faithful to the character concept.
Off the top of my head, some examples:
--ANIMATED CILIA. What if, for decoration, Hamidon grew the occasional wriggling tendril? Or had several spread across his surface, constantly wriggling? For me, that would make the monster feel more alive, more like a microscopic organism, and a heck of a lot creepier too. (You'll notice 4 wriggling cilia poking through the Seed of Hamidon's shell incidently).
--CELL DIVISION. In keeping with the giant cell theme, what if the creature split into two smaller pieces at some point during the battle? For me, that would make the raid experience a lot more interesting-- maybe players would have to coordinate efforts between the two halves. Also, it would be great to see this guy move in a major way.
--SCROLLING SUB-SURFACE TEXTURES. This is something Jay hooked up on the Fallen Seers recently, and it would give the impression that liquid is flowing across/through the cell wall.
--DETAILED ORGANIC TEXTURES. I'm imagining semi-transparent capillary networks (perhaps with a slight glow, maybe even pulsing) across the creature's "skin." The more organic and alive it gets, the closer I think we'd be to the original idea for this character.
--FLOATING DEBRIS/BODIES. Again, to enhance the sense of realism and dread, wouldn't it be neat to have defeated heroes and/or rubble floating in the cell fluid? Just the illusion of things floating within the creature would help to sell the notion that it's composed of liquid.
--ADDITIONAL ORGANELLES. If I was in a giant single-celled organism, I'd expect to see more naturalistic and a greater variety of organelles within the creature. Maybe you can target it, maybe it's just decoration.
--CYTOPLASM BURSTS. We could rig up an effect where the creature sprays fluid after you hit it. You'd have the feeling that you'd punctured the cell membrane and that you were actually damaging it. Anything to make the the fight more visceral would feel like a win for me.
So there you have it. From an art standpoint, we want to do everything in our power to bring these experiences to life in the most engaging, breathtaking, and super-heroic ways possible. Again, a Primal Hamidon update is NOT on the docket at the moment, but if it were, these are some of the things I'd be thinking about.
For me, changes like these would simply be polish on the core experience, deepening the encounter's sense of immersion and realism and keeping the art fresh and modern. This is a living game after all, and ideally we want the graphics to impress both new players that decide to try us out for the first time while simultaneously keeping things fresh for the veterans. I don't think any of the hypothetical updates listed above would harm the Hamidon experience. In fact, I think they could take what's already cool and make it way, way cooler. What do you think?
David Nakayama, Lead Concept Artist
COH Concept Art Gallery now open at http://pixelsaurus.deviantart.com/
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You know, on the note of the Freakleaders, you know who REALLY bugs the bajeezus out of me?|
Originally Posted by Johnstone
Well, I saw one person diss her, and one person sort of defend her, and everyone else doesn't bother to mention her at all. Anyway, Clamor is my favorite AV. She works great as a Freak leader.
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Dreck.
He's supposed to be the 'leader' of the Freakshow, the first one to augment themselves with cybernetics, the first one to juice up on Excelsior, and all he has to show for it is a cybernetic arm, a metal plated hand, and being big.
He doesn't look nearly as interesting as his Tanks, or Bile (who is unnaturally thin beyond Player character levels), or Clamor.
He looks like an over sized Enforcer Smasher.
Dreck, out of any other NPC mentioned here, could DEFINITELY stand for a revamp.
Okay, allow me to detail what /I/ think might personally fit Dreck, it would also kind of go out of the art aspects and into powers as well, but basically something like this:
-Cybernetic legs and arms. He doesn't have to be head to toe death machine like the Tanks, but maybe he could do well with how the Super Stunners get by
-Guns, Guns everywhere/More dakka. There's something a little weird about Excelsiot apparently granting him radiation blast powers, I would have thought Dreck would be the kind totally into having flamethrowers, gatlings guns, and grenade launchers installed on him when he couldn't fit on something smashy or slashy. Heck, to be honest, these weapons don't have to even be functional, just take the models for a bunch of weapons and duct tape them onto him and it'll work because Dreck is insane and out to cause (or at least look like) as much destruction as possible... Even if those extra weapons are just for show.
That's about all I can think of at the moment.
Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Agreed! Don't turn any of them into jeans and a shirt wearing superheroes. Boring and lame!|
Originally Posted by The_Demon_Hunter
^^ All of this ^^
Seriously and with all due respect, I know that the current art team sees things that they would have designed differently if they had done it, but we're at a point where the game now has a history and a legacy for long-time players. Look at what DC is going through online right now as they prepare to overhaul the looks of their characters with their planned September relaunch/retcon/reboot/non-reboot (depending on the title and who you talk to) because of how much they're changing some characters from their known looks. Superman in blue jeans and a t-shirt in flashbacks isn't exactly winning hearts and minds of long-time fans on the internet. Neither is the "armored" look he's going to have for modern stories. And be careful who you approach about Harley Quinn's new look. It's a case of fixing things that aren't really broken. Updating costumes would have worked, but there are a lot of people think that DC went too far into the 90s Image design vault for the changes. In a lot of ways, that's what many people here are going to be concerned about. I think that's where people were at with the CoT stuff we saw. At this point, the looks of all these groups are established for the people who have been here a while. Why change it any of it so much? Update it. Make it higher-res. Streamline it if needed. But drastic changes to existing NPCs and factions? Probably not a good idea. So yeah... at this point it would take far less time to tell you the ones that don't have the right feel, and to be honest, there aren't many of them IMO. |
And don't make any radical changes like Harley Quinn! I love the new look. I just don't love it for Harley Quinn!
Though radical changes to Sister Psyche and Swan I can probably overlook.
Sister Psyche's outfit in game just doesn't look great like it can in the comics.
And Swan...she just just looks freaky.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Event as a texture, this would add to Hami Creep-factor immensely.|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
--ANIMATED CILIA. What if, for decoration, Hamidon grew the occasional wriggling tendril? Or had several spread across his surface, constantly wriggling? For me, that would make the monster feel more alive, more like a microscopic organism, and a heck of a lot creepier too. (You'll notice 4 wriggling cilia poking through the Seed of Hamidon's shell incidently).
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| --CELL DIVISION. In keeping with the giant cell theme, what if the creature split into two smaller pieces at some point during the battle? For me, that would make the raid experience a lot more interesting-- maybe players would have to coordinate efforts between the two halves. Also, it would be great to see this guy move in a major way. |
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| --SCROLLING SUB-SURFACE TEXTURES. This is something Jay hooked up on the Fallen Seers recently, and it would give the impression that liquid is flowing across/through the cell wall. |
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| --DETAILED ORGANIC TEXTURES. I'm imagining semi-transparent capillary networks (perhaps with a slight glow, maybe even pulsing) across the creature's "skin." The more organic and alive it gets, the closer I think we'd be to the original idea for this character. |
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| --FLOATING DEBRIS/BODIES. Again, to enhance the sense of realism and dread, wouldn't it be neat to have defeated heroes and/or rubble floating in the cell fluid? Just the illusion of things floating within the creature would help to sell the notion that it's composed of liquid. |
Still, that would be a VERY interesting effect for defeated players to float in the plasm...
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| --ADDITIONAL ORGANELLES. If I was in a giant single-celled organism, I'd expect to see more naturalistic and a greater variety of organelles within the creature. Maybe you can target it, maybe it's just decoration. |
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| --CYTOPLASM BURSTS. We could rig up an effect where the creature sprays fluid after you hit it. You'd have the feeling that you'd punctured the cell membrane and that you were actually damaging it. Anything to make the the fight more visceral would feel like a win for me. |
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So there you have it. From an art standpoint, we want to do everything in our power to bring these experiences to life in the most engaging, breathtaking, and super-heroic ways possible. Again, a Primal Hamidon update is NOT on the docket at the moment, but if it were, these are some of the things I'd be thinking about. For me, changes like these would simply be polish on the core experience, deepening the encounter's sense of immersion and realism and keeping the art fresh and modern. This is a living game after all, and ideally we want the graphics to impress both new players that decide to try us out for the first time while simultaneously keeping things fresh for the veterans. I don't think any of the hypothetical updates listed above would harm the Hamidon experience. In fact, I think they could take what's already cool and make it way, way cooler. What do you think? |
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
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All of this sounds most assuredly excellent. In addition to this, I'd say that a Hamidon type situation would be a great time to make use of a game "feature" that tends to be jarring and annoying at other times. I refer to the Super Civilian. If organelles drifted and went about their business in a normal fashion and pushed people out of the way without regard, it would make the whole thing feel more real. Like you're in a giant creature and you're pretty insignificant to it's function.|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Animation is indeed an art issue, and the way characters move (or don't) interact with each other profoundly affects gameplay.
Just for fun, let me run some hypothetical update ideas past you and see what you think. As a thought experiment only, let's say we were going to update the primal Hamidon model. Again, absolutely no plans for this, but it's an interesting topic to think about. You've expressed a desire to maintain the character's "amoeba-ness," and I whole-heartedly agree with you. That said, there are ways we could potentially make him more visually interesting while staying completely faithful to the character concept. Off the top of my head, some examples: --ANIMATED CILIA. What if, for decoration, Hamidon grew the occasional wriggling tendril? Or had several spread across his surface, constantly wriggling? For me, that would make the monster feel more alive, more like a microscopic organism, and a heck of a lot creepier too. (You'll notice 4 wriggling cilia poking through the Seed of Hamidon's shell incidently). --CELL DIVISION. In keeping with the giant cell theme, what if the creature split into two smaller pieces at some point during the battle? For me, that would make the raid experience a lot more interesting-- maybe players would have to coordinate efforts between the two halves. Also, it would be great to see this guy move in a major way. --SCROLLING SUB-SURFACE TEXTURES. This is something Jay hooked up on the Fallen Seers recently, and it would give the impression that liquid is flowing across/through the cell wall. --DETAILED ORGANIC TEXTURES. I'm imagining semi-transparent capillary networks (perhaps with a slight glow, maybe even pulsing) across the creature's "skin." The more organic and alive it gets, the closer I think we'd be to the original idea for this character. --FLOATING DEBRIS/BODIES. Again, to enhance the sense of realism and dread, wouldn't it be neat to have defeated heroes and/or rubble floating in the cell fluid? Just the illusion of things floating within the creature would help to sell the notion that it's composed of liquid. --ADDITIONAL ORGANELLES. If I was in a giant single-celled organism, I'd expect to see more naturalistic and a greater variety of organelles within the creature. Maybe you can target it, maybe it's just decoration. --CYTOPLASM BURSTS. We could rig up an effect where the creature sprays fluid after you hit it. You'd have the feeling that you'd punctured the cell membrane and that you were actually damaging it. Anything to make the the fight more visceral would feel like a win for me. So there you have it. From an art standpoint, we want to do everything in our power to bring these experiences to life in the most engaging, breathtaking, and super-heroic ways possible. Again, a Primal Hamidon update is NOT on the docket at the moment, but if it were, these are some of the things I'd be thinking about. For me, changes like these would simply be polish on the core experience, deepening the encounter's sense of immersion and realism and keeping the art fresh and modern. This is a living game after all, and ideally we want the graphics to impress both new players that decide to try us out for the first time while simultaneously keeping things fresh for the veterans. I don't think any of the hypothetical updates listed above would harm the Hamidon experience. In fact, I think they could take what's already cool and make it way, way cooler. What do you think? |
I would like to bring up the other side of the coin though. In a Primal Hami raid with 3+ teams, Mitos, Hami, pets, attacker powers, etc. We're at the razor's edge of performance. I remember in Beta before the optimization passes, we had a habit of crashing the zone even on not full raids. That was before Incarnate powers even. In short, it can get ugly. Mainly what I'm trying to say is, as awesome as all this sounds, and as much as I want it, I need (really need) you guys to make as many tests and optimizations as you can to make this thing run smoothly for people.
I've been a staunch advocate of Primal Hami ever since the change, but performance issues, the repetitive nature of the raid, and the lackluster rewards all made it next to impossible to whip up enthusiasm. Shiny and cool looking tend to wear off fast. If people feel like completing the thing is a grind more than a challenge, then they won't go. I know that aspect of things isn't so much your wheelhouse. I just wanted to bring it up because it's clear you care. I want to see your stuff as much as you want to put it out, and I want everyone to see and enjoy it too. That doesn't happen unless they bring the fun and the smooth experience along for the ride.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Had a whole paragraph detailing this very idea written up before I went back and read the whole thing. Wasted effort. :P|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Animation is indeed an art issue, and the way characters move (or don't) interact with each other profoundly affects gameplay.
Just for fun, let me run some hypothetical update ideas past you and see what you think. As a thought experiment only, let's say we were going to update the primal Hamidon model. |
Still I hope you don't mind if I leave it, mostly, in that format instead of trying to re-write it.
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Originally Posted by Noble Savage
--FLOATING DEBRIS/BODIES. Again, to enhance the sense of realism and dread, wouldn't it be neat to have defeated heroes and/or rubble floating in the cell fluid? Just the illusion of things floating within the creature would help to sell the notion that it's composed of liquid.
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What about if he had bits of debri stuck in him rocks and stuff. Hunks of the ground ripped off from his eruption from below. Better than him just appearing and ties into the Pratoren story. Maybe a rikti skeleton or two. From being digested. (Hero's might be to much they would have long bin digested from the time he first appeared but the Riki tie into the previous TF.) This would have the added effect of giving some of us a blasted place to stand while attacking his little bits.
Hop attacking? Never fun. Don't really need even need anything like a path to the ground normal travel powers should get most up there. Just need platforms to do the work on.
Have it after a second or two crash to the ground upon defeat. Heavy damage for anyone under it. Mid damage to anyone around the impacts. A lot of dust. Add one last little challenge to the raid.
Could also use a FX that represented the drag caused by hammys squishie filling. Have to realy think it threw to realize that it's not just a random addition to make the raid harder but a story/character aspect.
Re: Hamidon art touch-up possibilities, tendrils would definitely help and were the first thing I thought of. The real problem with the mitochondria is that they're too geometric and too static for a game like CoH. I'd like to see the attacks launched by whipping tentacles, the way the ranged attack from Corruption flies off of the end of the whip. I also like the subsurface texture issue, but what I want is not something veiny or otherwise biological -- what I want is giant, monstrous, pained faces. I want the mitochondria to look like something that Hamidon made out of captured heroes. Similarly, the nucleus needs some kind of an identifiable face, however inhuman; the Hamidon fight just doesn't feel personal enough to me.
(On a non-art aside, a good time to incorporate some of these changes would be the next time Hamidon gets a tactics update. He's gotten way too easy and way too predictable for a fight against the guy who's supposed to be the planet's single greatest scientific expert on the subject of superpowers. Given my druthers, Hamidon's tactics would adapt to ours, and require us to learn something new, at least once every two years, preferably every year.)
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Absolutely critical that it runs smoothly. I'm not a 3D artist, but I'm quite confident in the current team's ability to pull it off, especially considering that they just accomplished something similar with the Seed zone event. That character model is quite detailed and enormous, with several animated parts, a flight path, and multiple targets, all while flying over the the most detailed and modern zone in the game. |
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
...
I would like to bring up the other side of the coin though. In a Primal Hami raid with 3+ teams, Mitos, Hami, pets, attacker powers, etc. We're at the razor's edge of performance. I remember in Beta before the optimization passes, we had a habit of crashing the zone even on not full raids. That was before Incarnate powers even. In short, it can get ugly. Mainly what I'm trying to say is, as awesome as all this sounds, and as much as I want it, I need (really need) you guys to make as many tests and optimizations as you can to make this thing run smoothly for people... |
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
I've been a staunch advocate of Primal Hami ever since the change, but performance issues, the repetitive nature of the raid, and the lackluster rewards all made it next to impossible to whip up enthusiasm. Shiny and cool looking tend to wear off fast. If people feel like completing the thing is a grind more than a challenge, then they won't go. I know that aspect of things isn't so much your wheelhouse. I just wanted to bring it up because it's clear you care. I want to see your stuff as much as you want to put it out, and I want everyone to see and enjoy it too. That doesn't happen unless they bring the fun and the smooth experience along for the ride.
|
David Nakayama, Lead Concept Artist
COH Concept Art Gallery now open at http://pixelsaurus.deviantart.com/
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This thread has gotten into my brain and I wanted to put into words something else I'd like to see, or at least that I think would resonate.|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Let us know why it's awesome.
 That's what this thread is all about--what resonates with you and why. |
I mentioned yesterday that we rarely see signature characters in their environment, or at least in an environment that illustrates their story. It's also rare to see a character doing anything other than standing there waiting to talk to us.
I had to dig through my memories to come up with one, and it's a fairly recent addition at that: Bobcat in her private room at Studio 55. Her costume is exceedingly plain, but that insolent pose tells a lot.
Another powerful image not in this game was always Professor X in his chair. He always stood out from other heroes, but still never appeared weak.
I think there are some great new idle poses, or even the old sitting poses, that when used well, could really bring some characters to life.
Some things that popped into my head:
A contact that during the progress of his arc is kidnapped. You go looking for him and he's not there (but the game drops a clue). In the ensuing investigation you rescue him, but not before he's injured. For your next mission you talk to him in his hospital bed (laying recumbent). Then later, possibly for another arc, you go back and he's where he was, but in a wheelchair.
I think this is the kind of thing you guys could manage through creative use of some of the tech we've seen with contacts that appear or disappear depending on your story choices. It also illustrates what I'm saying about telling characters through body language. It would be great to have a new Dean MacArthur arc where you find him lounging on a beach in a chair with really ugly shorts on. Totally appropriate for him, and a cool change of pace from what we're used to.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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This is a post of awesome, David!|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Animation is indeed an art issue, and the way characters move (or don't) interact with each other profoundly affects gameplay.
Just for fun, let me run some hypothetical update ideas past you and see what you think. As a thought experiment only, let's say we were going to update the primal Hamidon model. Again, absolutely no plans for this, but it's an interesting topic to think about. You've expressed a desire to maintain the character's "amoeba-ness," and I whole-heartedly agree with you. That said, there are ways we could potentially make him more visually interesting while staying completely faithful to the character concept. Off the top of my head, some examples: |
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| --ANIMATED CILIA. What if, for decoration, Hamidon grew the occasional wriggling tendril? Or had several spread across his surface, constantly wriggling? For me, that would make the monster feel more alive, more like a microscopic organism, and a heck of a lot creepier too. (You'll notice 4 wriggling cilia poking through the Seed of Hamidon's shell incidently). |
Did I say "split"?
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| --CELL DIVISION. In keeping with the giant cell theme, what if the creature split into two smaller pieces at some point during the battle? For me, that would make the raid experience a lot more interesting-- maybe players would have to coordinate efforts between the two halves. Also, it would be great to see this guy move in a major way. |
Now we get to the really great stuff...
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| --SCROLLING SUB-SURFACE TEXTURES. This is something Jay hooked up on the Fallen Seers recently, and it would give the impression that liquid is flowing across/through the cell wall. |
Like swirling, squirming, squiggly-ness all along/within the texture of Hamidon's walls/skin? Awesome!
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| --DETAILED ORGANIC TEXTURES. I'm imagining semi-transparent capillary networks (perhaps with a slight glow, maybe even pulsing) across the creature's "skin." The more organic and alive it gets, the closer I think we'd be to the original idea for this character. |
Regardless, some semi-transparent details and glowing could be fantastic!
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| --FLOATING DEBRIS/BODIES. Again, to enhance the sense of realism and dread, wouldn't it be neat to have defeated heroes and/or rubble floating in the cell fluid? Just the illusion of things floating within the creature would help to sell the notion that it's composed of liquid. |
I'd worry a tiny bit that all of these additional details could muddy things up a bit, but, so long as you do it right and you think it looks right in action, I thin that'd be super.
All of this makes me wonder if they could add a group fly effect for any and all who enter into Hamidon... (I know people with powers that require the ground would hate me for that, but I still think it would be awesome).
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| --ADDITIONAL ORGANELLES. If I was in a giant single-celled organism, I'd expect to see more naturalistic and a greater variety of organelles within the creature. Maybe you can target it, maybe it's just decoration. |
Also, what Lemur Lad suggested would be fantastic (non aggressive organelles that simply shove us around, like the damn pedestrians do when they walk into us... That is such a great idea, haha!).
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| --CYTOPLASM BURSTS. We could rig up an effect where the creature sprays fluid after you hit it. You'd have the feeling that you'd punctured the cell membrane and that you were actually damaging it. Anything to make the the fight more visceral would feel like a win for me. |
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So there you have it. From an art standpoint, we want to do everything in our power to bring these experiences to life in the most engaging, breathtaking, and super-heroic ways possible. Again, a Primal Hamidon update is NOT on the docket at the moment, but if it were, these are some of the things I'd be thinking about. For me, changes like these would simply be polish on the core experience, deepening the encounter's sense of immersion and realism and keeping the art fresh and modern. This is a living game after all, and ideally we want the graphics to impress both new players that decide to try us out for the first time while simultaneously keeping things fresh for the veterans. I don't think any of the hypothetical updates listed above would harm the Hamidon experience. In fact, I think they could take what's already cool and make it way, way cooler. What do you think? |
Great to hear you sharing thoughts about personal interests in potential updates to things.
So... This'll be coming in a few issues, right?
Tell NCSoft that I have approved it and not to worry about it, hehe.
Hehe, fun stuff!!
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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That is an excellent point and great examples.|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
This thread has gotten into my brain and I wanted to put into words something else I'd like to see, or at least that I think would resonate.
I mentioned yesterday that we rarely see signature characters in their environment, or at least in an environment that illustrates their story. It's also rare to see a character doing anything other than standing there waiting to talk to us. I had to dig through my memories to come up with one, and it's a fairly recent addition at that: Bobcat in her private room at Studio 55. Her costume is exceedingly plain, but that insolent pose tells a lot. Another powerful image not in this game was always Professor X in his chair. He always stood out from other heroes, but still never appeared weak. I think there are some great new idle poses, or even the old sitting poses, that when used well, could really bring some characters to life. ... |
I noticed that Prometheus animates somewhat interestingly and I liked that.
I've often thought that most of the major NPCs could be doing something a little better to display their character through their animations.
Anyway... Don't want to derail things further, but that is a very interesting aspect of making signature characters resonate more!
(Also, very cool ideas on using the hide/reveal contacts technology along with this)
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Not just fly, but have the players go into the swimming animation as well. This would not only enhance the idea that you're inside a big amoeba but it would also be practical for non-flying melee characters trying to take out the mitos. Sure I can use a jetpack, but this would still be a cool option. |
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Haha! That is brilliant!
I'd worry a tiny bit that all of these additional details could muddy things up a bit, but, so long as you do it right and you think it looks right in action, I thin that'd be super. All of this makes me wonder if they could add a group fly effect for any and all who enter into Hamidon... (I know people with powers that require the ground would hate me for that, but I still think it would be awesome). |
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Making Hamidon "swimmable" would be awesome. A spheroid that matches the outline of the amoeba, which grants you an auto "go anywhere" (ala flight, but without gutting people's "castable only from the ground" powers) power of some sort and puts you in the "swimming" animation would be epic. (would need to make an "up" and "down" swimming animation, could be as simple as just moving your hands up/down, as appropriate.) Then folks wouldn't have to worry about jetpacks or superjumps or coordinating Group Fly (which is rejectable now anyway) to fight his "bits".|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Animation is indeed an art issue, and the way characters move (or don't) interact with each other profoundly affects gameplay.
Just for fun, let me run some hypothetical update ideas past you and see what you think. As a thought experiment only, let's say we were going to update the primal Hamidon model. Again, absolutely no plans for this, but it's an interesting topic to think about. You've expressed a desire to maintain the character's "amoeba-ness," and I whole-heartedly agree with you. That said, there are ways we could potentially make him more visually interesting while staying completely faithful to the character concept. Off the top of my head, some examples: --ANIMATED CILIA. .... --CELL DIVISION. .... --SCROLLING SUB-SURFACE TEXTURES. .... --DETAILED ORGANIC TEXTURES. .... --FLOATING DEBRIS/BODIES. .... --ADDITIONAL ORGANELLES. .... --CYTOPLASM BURSTS. .... So there you have it. From an art standpoint, we want to do everything in our power to bring these experiences to life in the most engaging, breathtaking, and super-heroic ways possible. Again, a Primal Hamidon update is NOT on the docket at the moment, but if it were, these are some of the things I'd be thinking about. For me, changes like these would simply be polish on the core experience, deepening the encounter's sense of immersion and realism and keeping the art fresh and modern. This is a living game after all, and ideally we want the graphics to impress both new players that decide to try us out for the first time while simultaneously keeping things fresh for the veterans. I don't think any of the hypothetical updates listed above would harm the Hamidon experience. In fact, I think they could take what's already cool and make it way, way cooler. What do you think? |
EDIT: Zaloopa and EK beat me to it! But you see! It's a popular suggestion! I've seen it more than a few times in global channels, and during Hami Raids, and a couple times in the Suggestions forum.
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Sounds like you're in favor! |
Originally Posted by Derangedpolygot
Ewwwwww... EW. Ew, ew, ew, EW. |
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Cool post. Thank you for sharing the thought process.
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Handled with care, possibly. The auras around the blue mitos already remind me a bit of this. However, this can easily become trite or overdone. I'd much rather have the smooth, purple Hami pulse more (or maybe ripple) than have it grow feelers. The mitos and the other DE are its feelers, it is perfect in its simplicity. Having tendrils or tentacles come up out of the ground might be cool though.|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
--ANIMATED CILIA. What if, for decoration, Hamidon grew the occasional wriggling tendril? Or had several spread across his surface, constantly wriggling? For me, that would make the monster feel more alive, more like a microscopic organism, and a heck of a lot creepier too. (You'll notice 4 wriggling cilia poking through the Seed of Hamidon's shell incidently).
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Originally Posted by Noble Savage
--CELL DIVISION. In keeping with the giant cell theme, what if the creature split into two smaller pieces at some point during the battle? For me, that would make the raid experience a lot more interesting-- maybe players would have to coordinate efforts between the two halves. Also, it would be great to see this guy move in a major way.
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Originally Posted by Noble Savage
--SCROLLING SUB-SURFACE TEXTURES. This is something Jay hooked up on the Fallen Seers recently, and it would give the impression that liquid is flowing across/through the cell wall.
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Originally Posted by Noble Savage
--DETAILED ORGANIC TEXTURES. I'm imagining semi-transparent capillary networks (perhaps with a slight glow, maybe even pulsing) across the creature's "skin." The more organic and alive it gets, the closer I think we'd be to the original idea for this character.
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Originally Posted by Noble Savage
--FLOATING DEBRIS/BODIES. Again, to enhance the sense of realism and dread, wouldn't it be neat to have defeated heroes and/or rubble floating in the cell fluid? Just the illusion of things floating within the creature would help to sell the notion that it's composed of liquid.
--ADDITIONAL ORGANELLES. If I was in a giant single-celled organism, I'd expect to see more naturalistic and a greater variety of organelles within the creature. Maybe you can target it, maybe it's just decoration. |
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Originally Posted by Noble Savage
--CYTOPLASM BURSTS. We could rig up an effect where the creature sprays fluid after you hit it. You'd have the feeling that you'd punctured the cell membrane and that you were actually damaging it. Anything to make the the fight more visceral would feel like a win for me.
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Personally, I would love Cytoplasm Bursts, especially if it would be something that might only display on better graphic settings (that way people with slower comps are not negatively impacted).
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Hrm...
Oh, while we're here.
Valkyrie.
Old Ugly:
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/w/images//t...x-Valkyrie.jpg
New Hotness:
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/w/images//c...ttleMaiden.jpg
Valkyrie has a costume set with her name. May she please use it?
Overall, a little modification on Hammi could be really great. He seems to have become a little neglected by the playerbase since Incarnate content really got rolling. Of course, any changes made would ideally not also make crashes during the raids more frequent.
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This sounds pretty cool, especially if done in the right size/number. If the cilia could lash out at players approaching the jello, that'd also be pretty neat.|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
--ANIMATED CILIA. What if, for decoration, Hamidon grew the occasional wriggling tendril? Or had several spread across his surface, constantly wriggling? For me, that would make the monster feel more alive, more like a microscopic organism, and a heck of a lot creepier too. (You'll notice 4 wriggling cilia poking through the Seed of Hamidon's shell incidently).
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| --CELL DIVISION. In keeping with the giant cell theme, what if the creature split into two smaller pieces at some point during the battle? For me, that would make the raid experience a lot more interesting-- maybe players would have to coordinate efforts between the two halves. Also, it would be great to see this guy move in a major way. |
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--SCROLLING SUB-SURFACE TEXTURES. This is something Jay hooked up on the Fallen Seers recently, and it would give the impression that liquid is flowing across/through the cell wall. --DETAILED ORGANIC TEXTURES. I'm imagining semi-transparent capillary networks (perhaps with a slight glow, maybe even pulsing) across the creature's "skin." The more organic and alive it gets, the closer I think we'd be to the original idea for this character. |
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| --FLOATING DEBRIS/BODIES. Again, to enhance the sense of realism and dread, wouldn't it be neat to have defeated heroes and/or rubble floating in the cell fluid? Just the illusion of things floating within the creature would help to sell the notion that it's composed of liquid. |
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| --ADDITIONAL ORGANELLES. If I was in a giant single-celled organism, I'd expect to see more naturalistic and a greater variety of organelles within the creature. Maybe you can target it, maybe it's just decoration. |
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| --CYTOPLASM BURSTS. We could rig up an effect where the creature sprays fluid after you hit it. You'd have the feeling that you'd punctured the cell membrane and that you were actually damaging it. Anything to make the the fight more visceral would feel like a win for me. |
One thing worth noting though is that while cosmetic changes and even some adjustments to the way the raid actually occurs will regenerate some interest, without rewards that players view as valuable and worth the time/effort, it won't take long for it to be shelved again in favor of the Incarnate content.
Arc ID: 475246, "Bringing a Lord to Power"
"I'm only a simple man trying to cling to my tomorrow. Every day. By any means necessary."
-Caldwell B. Cladwell
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Unless you can give valid storyline resins for the changes. Like the Freekshow starting to employing Riki and Aracnios tech. And only the boss and those he trusts get it at first. Or the COT capturing a fighter type hero and draining his life force to fuel new combat abilities. A couple of good stories in there.|
Originally Posted by The_Demon_Hunter
^^ All of this ^^
Seriously and with all due respect, I know that the current art team sees things that they would have designed differently if they had done it, but we're at a point where the game now has a history and a legacy for long-time players. Look at what DC is going through online right now as they prepare to overhaul the looks of their characters with their planned September relaunch/retcon/reboot/non-reboot (depending on the title and who you talk to) because of how much they're changing some characters from their known looks. Superman in blue jeans and a t-shirt in flashbacks isn't exactly winning hearts and minds of long-time fans on the internet. Neither is the "armored" look he's going to have for modern stories. And be careful who you approach about Harley Quinn's new look. It's a case of fixing things that aren't really broken. Updating costumes would have worked, but there are a lot of people think that DC went too far into the 90s Image design vault for the changes. In a lot of ways, that's what many people here are going to be concerned about. I think that's where people were at with the CoT stuff we saw. At this point, the looks of all these groups are established for the people who have been here a while. Why change it any of it so much? Update it. Make it higher-res. Streamline it if needed. But drastic changes to existing NPCs and factions? Probably not a good idea. So yeah... at this point it would take far less time to tell you the ones that don't have the right feel, and to be honest, there aren't many of them IMO. |
And isn't Positron supposed to be an incarnate or something?
I'd like to see a new armor for him something like modified versions of the difference costume set under-suit with paneling replacing fabric like aria incarnate gloves and boots but more understated and techy with crystal lens emitters projecting the aura and his signature tron lines pulsing at the seams. Like he created his own version based on his previous suit. And a new version of his signature visor across his eyes. Always thought that he looked kind of neked without his helmet.
I mean Iron man changes his armor like one a week but Posi's bin wearing the same pants for years.
See edited image for rough example.
FX worked out best on the boot. The eddied arm is just for the changes to the armor.
Even if you don't update Posi I would like those pieces for my selfe.
My personal favorite from the signature characters is definitely Scirocco, well, he is second to Ghost Widow but after watching the topic a bit she got quite a bit of attention. Both have something about them that just makes sense.
The mystic aura around them, the kind of attire they have goes so well with the kind of powers they have... the Patron Arcs give you a chance to really empathize with the signature characters in CoV, which is a huge part of why I love the design on these two so much. CoH feels much like the freedom Phalanx tells you "yeah, well, i need to handle important stuff, you go take care of this", and most of them are on that "spandex/bright color" era... With the Patrons though, you go through all of their arcs from subordinate, to quasi-friend, to enemy, to ally again... their looks are just /right/.
How scirroco uses his powers during fights is a clear example of this. Being the less evil(doesnt even consider himself such) from the Patrons, makes him someone really nice to get on his shoes.
Blueside, BaBs wins hands down. Seriously. He is this guy with uber globes, and no spandex... He looks like a down to earth guy and the main reason why I always choose Galaxy as a start point.
Praetoria, Cole. Not his tights outfit, no... The White Suit(tm?) version of himself. This guy looks down to earth... he even comes down and talks to you when its required(Neuron's arc!). Say what you want about his methods, this guy is always shiny and clean and wants you to trust him... someone who lost faith in humanity that has decided to act like Big Brother to keep all of us safe. Really, you dont achieve that without one hell of a charisma and a good PR team, and Cole has both.
Some of my views on character designs and concepts...
First of all... all NPC's are often too big or too small. Sizes should be completely re-done all over. Civileans are too big... some heroes to small... some villains like Council are giants.
- Statesman; His outfit is the classical Superman and therefore perfect. His origin is good and fitting the powers and helmet. His in-game rendering is awefull though. Reichsman and Emperor Cole both should be new templates to make Statesman look more impressive in stature.
- Reichsman; Great look! Menacing and powerful.
- Emperor Cole; Very impressive.... but his costumed look as Tyrant (which should still be used somewhere) should be equally impressive. Which is not!
- Back Alley Brawler; He is a victim of the low resolution NPC design. His look is good. But as the latest art gave him new hair and more muscles he could do with a overhaul.
arghh... I have too much to add here. And it will get too long. So I will give my general idea's instead.
Most of the ingames npc's need a graphical overhaul bad. That includes a lot of parts in the look. As of now I am ok with most origins... but a few powers are off... I would never have made Countess Crey a psi. She would do much better as a high tech blaster... maybe dual pistols.
The tech npc's need more electronic looks. And a LED light effect here and there. There need to be more size difference in the heroes and villains too. I gather Mako and Manticrore should be smaller then Statesman and Recluse. And I expect only Doc Deliah a big woman... the rest should be smaller. If I would redesign I would redesign them all and place them next to each other in comparison.
For Mako and Barracuda some serious looking at ravaging sea creatures is needed.
Swan should be beautiful in looks.... but her clothes need a HUGE update.
Malaise... he doesnt feel as a spandex wearing personality. I think he is a more street wise type.
Woodsman looks perfect.. in this case his huge stature fits. He should by right be a bit more bigger then Statesman.
I hate Hamidon in looks... previews from the tentacles and hints of the Praetorian versions shows Hamidon and the Devouring Earth need updating bad. Think creepy and menacing powers of nature.
In future signature arcs I would love to see more of Tessaract, Mirror Spirit and the likes... some of the lesser used but very good designed characters. Characters with personality.
- The Italian Job: The Godfather Returns #1151
Beginner - Encounter a renewed age for the Mook and the Family when Emile Marcone escapes from the Zig!
- Along Came a... Bug!? #528482
Average - A new race of aliens arrives on Earth. And Vanguard has you investigate them!
- The Court of the Blood Countess: The Rise of the Blood Countess #3805
Advanced - Go back in time and witness the birth of a vampire. Follow her to key moments in her life in order to stop her! A story of intrigue, drama and horror! Blood & Violence... not recommend to solo!
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Agreed...|
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Animation is indeed an art issue, and the way characters move (or don't) interact with each other profoundly affects gameplay.
Just for fun, let me run some hypothetical update ideas past you and see what you think. As a thought experiment only, let's say we were going to update the primal Hamidon model. Again, absolutely no plans for this, but it's an interesting topic to think about. You've expressed a desire to maintain the character's "amoeba-ness," and I whole-heartedly agree with you. That said, there are ways we could potentially make him more visually interesting while staying completely faithful to the character concept. Off the top of my head, some examples: --ANIMATED CILIA. What if, for decoration, Hamidon grew the occasional wriggling tendril? Or had several spread across his surface, constantly wriggling? For me, that would make the monster feel more alive, more like a microscopic organism, and a heck of a lot creepier too. (You'll notice 4 wriggling cilia poking through the Seed of Hamidon's shell incidently). --CELL DIVISION. In keeping with the giant cell theme, what if the creature split into two smaller pieces at some point during the battle? For me, that would make the raid experience a lot more interesting-- maybe players would have to coordinate efforts between the two halves. Also, it would be great to see this guy move in a major way. --SCROLLING SUB-SURFACE TEXTURES. This is something Jay hooked up on the Fallen Seers recently, and it would give the impression that liquid is flowing across/through the cell wall. --DETAILED ORGANIC TEXTURES. I'm imagining semi-transparent capillary networks (perhaps with a slight glow, maybe even pulsing) across the creature's "skin." The more organic and alive it gets, the closer I think we'd be to the original idea for this character. --FLOATING DEBRIS/BODIES. Again, to enhance the sense of realism and dread, wouldn't it be neat to have defeated heroes and/or rubble floating in the cell fluid? Just the illusion of things floating within the creature would help to sell the notion that it's composed of liquid. --ADDITIONAL ORGANELLES. If I was in a giant single-celled organism, I'd expect to see more naturalistic and a greater variety of organelles within the creature. Maybe you can target it, maybe it's just decoration. --CYTOPLASM BURSTS. We could rig up an effect where the creature sprays fluid after you hit it. You'd have the feeling that you'd punctured the cell membrane and that you were actually damaging it. Anything to make the the fight more visceral would feel like a win for me. So there you have it. From an art standpoint, we want to do everything in our power to bring these experiences to life in the most engaging, breathtaking, and super-heroic ways possible. Again, a Primal Hamidon update is NOT on the docket at the moment, but if it were, these are some of the things I'd be thinking about. For me, changes like these would simply be polish on the core experience, deepening the encounter's sense of immersion and realism and keeping the art fresh and modern. This is a living game after all, and ideally we want the graphics to impress both new players that decide to try us out for the first time while simultaneously keeping things fresh for the veterans. I don't think any of the hypothetical updates listed above would harm the Hamidon experience. In fact, I think they could take what's already cool and make it way, way cooler. What do you think? |
This kind of re-thinking what a character is and how that would look like... compaired to what is now possible... is what most of the signature characters need.
It is detail we are thinking about.. and small edits on the looks. Battle maidon for instance looks way better then Valkytrie... but they dont share the same hair. As the valkyrie armor isnt showing that. On an NPC that coould be added though. Details is what makes this cool.
- The Italian Job: The Godfather Returns #1151
Beginner - Encounter a renewed age for the Mook and the Family when Emile Marcone escapes from the Zig!
- Along Came a... Bug!? #528482
Average - A new race of aliens arrives on Earth. And Vanguard has you investigate them!
- The Court of the Blood Countess: The Rise of the Blood Countess #3805
Advanced - Go back in time and witness the birth of a vampire. Follow her to key moments in her life in order to stop her! A story of intrigue, drama and horror! Blood & Violence... not recommend to solo!
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C-could you do most of those anyway? Especially the floating bodies? And the veins?
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Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Bunch of Hami ideas
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In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
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Yeah but being on a Praetorian map will crash to desktop my (no un-beefy, nvidia-based) machine generally once per trial or every hour-ish is the open-areas of Praetoria. Quicker if I switch on Ambient Occlusion. This has persisted since the GR beta (and, judging by the drop-in-outs in the trials it affects plenty you others) and sah been reported a _lot_ (there are almost never crash dumps) |
Originally Posted by Noble Savage
Absolutely critical that it runs smoothly. I'm not a 3D artist, but I'm quite confident in the current team's ability to pull it off, especially considering that they just accomplished something similar with the Seed zone event. That character model is quite detailed and enormous, with several animated parts, a flight path, and multiple targets, all while flying over the the most detailed and modern zone in the game.
Well, in the event that we actually did update this raid, that's where the Design folks would come in. I'm sure they'd have just as many ideas about how to enhance that side of the encounter. |
I have no issues Anywhere else in the game.
Choppy framerate I can handle but I don't currently trust the GFX programming team.
But now I'm really curious--tell us more about why you like it. Essentially all the players I talk to seem to find the art on that charcter a little too plain and static, and the posts I've seen in this thread rarely mention the original Hamidon among their favorite designs. Let us know why it's awesome.
If I was going to alter it, I'd make it mobile - the whole thing (have it ooze into zones for zone events?...) and the parts inside of it would move around to attack invaders.
The only thing that is not fun about something like this is you NEED a large group of players to do it. I would design encounters so they could be done with less people, but allow them to scale with larger groups, and offer bigger rewards for larger groups to encourage community. I like the new trials and I love joining the leagues, but it would be even better if it could be done with less players when less players are available to play. Maybe new hami feeds off bio-energy and grows larger when facing more foes....