A Defender disguised as an SoA
hmm, well SoAs are pretty far from Defenders, but I can see a few things that might interest you.
- Tank Crab. I heard it's pretty amazing (my Soldier sits at 50, banked until they fix that backpack that sticks around when you switch builds), especially if you manage to fit in most of the pets. I's suggest looking at it; at lot of SoA players like to take a look at the Leadership pool, even if they already have one that's just better. I mean, double Assault, double Maneuvers, Tactics and Vengeance, if someone manages to die, is just awesome.
- Control freak Fort. I was somewhat disappointed when I tried Mass Confusion, but the rest of the control powers are just amazing. Plus, you get a crashless nuke, how awesome is that? Oh yea, it stuns, too.
I'd think the tank crab, possibly with Fortification, perma-Serum, Tough, Weave, 2x Maneuvers, 2x Assault and some pets would fit your bill, but that would still be rather far from being a buffing/debuffing Fender. You'd definitely be going more up-front, and might even need to dip into the Presence pool (for a taunt, since Soldiers don't get any), but like I said, my Soldier's banked, so there's no word from personal experience from me; I just heard it works well
Running an SoA with doubled up leadership will bring as much support as most defenders and all you'd have to do is stand around. Anything you do beyond that is icing on the cake.
Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
I don't really see any way to build an SoA to be a purely 'support' character that wouldn't be contributing significantly less to a team than one built to deal damage too - the two aren't mutually exclusive so you can do both (and are wasting potential if you only do one). I feel similarly about Defenders mind you, but far more so for SoAs.
While SoAs do bring a fair amount of buffing to the table, most of those buffs are either toggles, or longish recharge click powers, meaning if all you did was buff you'd spend large amounts of time just standing around doing nothing. As for debuffs, the main one is Venom Grenade, which also does decent damage (and since you can't enhance the debuff itself, you may as well enhance the damage). The others are either on a non-spammable recharge (Surveillance), or are just -def, -rech, and -spd debuffs as secondary effects of some of the attacks, none of which is really worth enhancing over damage.
I guess you could do a control focused Fortunata, take all the buffs (as a damage dealing build would also usually do), use the AoE controls when appropriate, and spam the single target controls while the AoE ones are recharging - you'd have three to cycle between (four if you count knockback, five if you count subdue), so at least you'd be doing something. I think that's about the closest you'd get to a non-damage support SoA that wouldn't be wasting loads of potential (though it'd still be possible - and more useful - if you mixed in damaging attacks too).
Make a Fort.
Between Tactical Training: Manouevers and Mind Link, you will be giving out as much defense as a Bubbler's buffs (minus the Bubbler's pbaoe big Bubble). That big bubble can be compensated for by the to-Hit penalty in another toggle" Darkest Night.
While adding as much defensively as a Bubbler, you will be lowering your opponent's damage with Darkest Night, increasing your team's to hit with both Mind Link and Tactical Training: Leadership and increasing their damage with Tactical Training: Assault. All of the above is in addition to the leadership powers available to everyone (The leadership pool powers are also very effective in the hands of a Fort).
Your primary can floor all of your opponent's regen and recharge making them inflict less damage and take more. It can also keep your enemies off their feat much the same as a storm defender via Psionic Tornado, it possesses the most powerful single target hold in the game and has a very usable nuke power with no drawbacks.
When it comes to defending your team and adding offensive tools on top, the Fort really makes a Bubbler look useless. To be fair though Bubblers pretty much do suck these days and it isn't a fair comparison.
In $deity's name, why?
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Well, I could see an SoA in a purely support role, fire support.
"...well I have wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor and I am happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P Dowd (from the movie Harvey)
Ranged Soldier or Crab with Venom grenade and Arctic Breath from Mako PPP. Put Achille proc in the cone and Arctic -> 35-55% res debuff AOE.
Buffing part is Assault/Maneuver x2.
If, however, you want strong buffing and defensive support, I would recommend a Fortunata Ranged Control Build. If you want a more offensive support build, I'd recommend a huntsman build.
The Fortunata can bring ~30 defense all with controls as good as the lower end spectrum of controllers, all while being self-armored and very hard to kill and bringing sufficient offense to take down an AV, but not a pylon. A Melee Fortunata variant would give up minimal control, and gain additional offense capable of taking down a pylon.
The Huntsman can bring ~20 defense all, with up to -60% Resistance to multiply team offense, all while being self-armored and very hard to kill and bringing sufficient offense to take down a pylon.
Additionally you can take Rebirth Radial for Healing, Void Radial for -damage, Paralytic Radial for -damage, Gravitic Radial for -special, and a Radial Lore for Support, probably the IDF for the AoE Bubble, but I'd have to research the lore option.
Crabs I reserve for AoE Offensive platforms, or Tank platforms; I use mine as a tank. Banes are similar to huntsman, but more melee oriented and may not have as much debuffing. Night Widows are more Self Offense oriented, and lack the control, but can still contribute significant defense.
I love being a defender. I get that sense of joy that a Stalker must get when he pulls an awesome AS, but I get it every single time I give out SB. Every. Single. Time. I pride myself on being the oil that keeps the gears of my little pubbie teams going. It's just something I think I'm built for.
And now I'd like to build an awesome SoA. Of course I don't want to do any damage. I'd be very happy if I only had attacks that did some debuffing, in fact. Is this possible? What type of SoA would be best? Is it worth it to make a SoA that is geared strictly to pubbie teaming, where it can give tons of buffs and debuffs out? Pets are fine, especially if they're mini defenders. I honestly don't care if I can't solo a minion, I just want to defend. Help me! |
I would do this:
1. Carry double Assault, double Maneuver, one Tactics from secondary.
2. Mind Link is a must.
3. Take Aid Other, Aid Self and the rez power.
4. Take more control powers than attack. Fort has quite a few control choices.
5. Once you have access to patron, take aoe immb and darkest night for even more debuff.
Da da! You've got a very strong supporter character that has one of the best mez-protection in the game and very awesome defense.
Oh and you CAN solo just fine with any of SoA. That I can assure you.
However, one of the best things about SoA is that they are providing excellent team buffs WHILE doing great damage. On most support type of characters, you can only do one thing at a time.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
And now I'd like to build an awesome SoA. Of course I don't want to do any damage. I'd be very happy if I only had attacks that did some debuffing, in fact.
Is this possible? What type of SoA would be best? |
SoAs have a variety of build potential, but the one thing all of them have in common is that their primary set is focused on Offense.
They just happen to bring a great level of support on top of it.
I'd also like to say that going out of your way to avoid dealing damage is easily one of the worst things you could do to your team, and is about as far from supporting them as possible.
I would rather ave, pretty much any AT/Build on my team than any player with the strongest buffs/debuffs available and no intent to deal damage.
You'll have to work extra hard to turn an Veat into a leech. I would say "Good Luck with That", but I don't want to wish a leech onto any team, no matter how badly they might otherwise deserve it.
If, however, you want strong buffing and defensive support, I would recommend a Fortunata Ranged Control Build. If you want a more offensive support build, I'd recommend a huntsman build. The Fortunata can bring ~30 defense all with controls as good as the lower end spectrum of controllers, all while being self-armored and very hard to kill and bringing sufficient offense to take down an AV, but not a pylon. A Melee Fortunata variant would give up minimal control, and gain additional offense capable of taking down a pylon. The Huntsman can bring ~20 defense all, with up to -60% Resistance to multiply team offense, all while being self-armored and very hard to kill and bringing sufficient offense to take down a pylon. Additionally you can take Rebirth Radial for Healing, Void Radial for -damage, Paralytic Radial for -damage, Gravitic Radial for -special, and a Radial Lore for Support, probably the IDF for the AoE Bubble, but I'd have to research the lore option. Crabs I reserve for AoE Offensive platforms, or Tank platforms; I use mine as a tank. Banes are similar to huntsman, but more melee oriented and may not have as much debuffing. Night Widows are more Self Offense oriented, and lack the control, but can still contribute significant defense. |
Great Post!!
My Huntsman build buffs with double leadership...by just standing there. Most SoA's are built with passive buffs, active debuff (+control), and damage. If you build an SoA for buffing only you will literally be just standing around (or if you're a fort occasionally firing off mind link).
The most defender like of the builds is going Huntsman-Hybrid w/double leadership. This is where you take most of the soldier gun attacks mingled with the Bane Armor and control powers. You'll have hefty buffs, debuffs, strong defense + resistance, and some pets. But it definitely won't be just standing there as a toggle bot.
My level 50 Dominators:
Madame Mindbender 50 Mind/Energy
Fly Agaric 50 Plant/Thorn
Nate Nitro 50 Fire/Psi
I had a funny concept character once, a pacifist widow. The idea was she refused to do attack anyone despite being inducted into such an organization.
It didn't work. The buffs an arachnos can provide (2xleadership) are all very nice, and medicine can help as well, but even with good recharge medicine won't keep a team alive. The manuevers/mind link are handy, but not enough to completely pull your weight. I did a couple bank missions where my team died over and again, decided to swap to another character and the difference was vast. The other character? My night widow, with his attacks and tricks. I had inferior support, but could finish off targets along with the team, and since targets were dying faster, the team survived far better.
Arachnos are high damage/toggle support for a reason: they can assist by not just prolonging ally/self survival, but by shortening how long enemies live.
...Just like defenders. Spiders simply skew a bit towards the latter.
there's so many fort builds....however....I've built mine to where.
I offer just as much defense as an FF defender(probably) with double maneuvers and assaults, tactics, vengeance...bam bam and bamity bam bam.
Mind link, awesome buff....it's on perma so more bam for bam bam.
and on top of that...my controls are also solid, my little confuse nuke is great and with contagious confusion confuses a LOT more people.
mass hold, my main attack IS a hold....it's just fantastic.
I also do amazing damage...so I don't really see the point in making an SOA if you DONT want any damage...
Magisterum- 50+3 Fortunata--Virtue
Lukerion- 33 Emp/Rad Defender--Virtue
Noah Heartily- 34 SS/SD brute- Virtue
Mika Heartily- 50+1 Fire/MM blaster-Virtue
I had a funny concept character once, a pacifist widow. The idea was she refused to do attack anyone despite being inducted into such an organization.
It didn't work. The buffs an arachnos can provide (2xleadership) are all very nice, and medicine can help as well, but even with good recharge medicine won't keep a team alive. The manuevers/mind link are handy, but not enough to completely pull your weight. I did a couple bank missions where my team died over and again, decided to swap to another character and the difference was vast. The other character? My night widow, with his attacks and tricks. I had inferior support, but could finish off targets along with the team, and since targets were dying faster, the team survived far better. Arachnos are high damage/toggle support for a reason: they can assist by not just prolonging ally/self survival, but by shortening how long enemies live. ...Just like defenders. Spiders simply skew a bit towards the latter. |
SoA is built in a way that they are supporting both Defensively and Offensively at the same time and do it very well.
By making a SoA, you are already an Defender/Offender.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I love being a defender. I get that sense of joy that a Stalker must get when he pulls an awesome AS, but I get it every single time I give out SB. Every. Single. Time. I pride myself on being the oil that keeps the gears of my little pubbie teams going. It's just something I think I'm built for.
And now I'd like to build an awesome SoA. Of course I don't want to do any damage. I'd be very happy if I only had attacks that did some debuffing, in fact. Is this possible? What type of SoA would be best? Is it worth it to make a SoA that is geared strictly to pubbie teaming, where it can give tons of buffs and debuffs out? Pets are fine, especially if they're mini defenders. I honestly don't care if I can't solo a minion, I just want to defend. Help me! |
It is perfectly possible to build an SoA that buffs the heck out of team while also debuffing and controlling hordes of enemies as others have already stated.
If you really wanted to do the least amount of damge possible, buff your teamates and still be filling your overall role on a team then playing some form of controller that slotted every power for max hold/imob/sleep/whatever isn't damge but still hampers the foe effect's and recharge would serve much better than trying to gimp down a damage class like SoA to fit your needs.
Global: @Kelig
Defenders are sometimes reducing the enemies fight duration, so just -hp.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Well i made a build for you that will make you usefull on a team while not doing damage. I didnt slot it but you get the picture.
Its not something i would play but for concept reasons your still helping your team out with a lot of buffs and a bit of healing and you realy dont have to do any damage. the atacks that are there are most holds well except for the stuff that you have to choose.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1,942
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 48 Natural Arachnos Widow
Primary Power Set: Fortunata Training
Secondary Power Set: Fortunata Teamwork
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Medicine
Power Pool: Flight
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Poison Dart
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Level 1: Brawl
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Level 2: Rest
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Level 2: Swift
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I'm going to just walk through a few scenarios and their conclusions real quick, for demonstrative purposes.
A team of all controllers has successfully completed a MoSTF. Therefor a tank is not required if you have pets, control, buffs, debuffs, and damage.
A team of all defenders has successfully completed a MoSTF. Therefor pets and control are not required if you have buffs, debuffs and damage.
A team of all blasters has successfully completed a MoSTF. Therefor buffs and debuffs are not required if you have damage.
All of these scenarios occurred prior to all incarnate content. The bottom line is that the only thing required to be successful at this game is damage. You cannot simply debuff an enemy to death. You cannot simply buff your team to victory. Damage is the only necessary element to victory. Everything else makes damage easier to apply.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I have found that the most defenderish build is a Bane Huntsman. I say this because I went with a huntsman build in place of an assault rifle/traps corruptor when I was looking for a gunman type character and found it to work extremely well.
The huntsman build generally has double maneuvers, double assault and tactics for +20% def, +30% damage and +15% to hit to all in group. Then it can stack venom grenade + surveillance for up to 40% def debuff on a hard target and 20% to all other targets and if you want to add in more debuffing you can take arctic breath from the leviathan mastery pool you can add another 15% resistance debuff.
All that, plus a solid attack chain using the fast activating attacks in the base soldier tree and the ability to softcap yourself to all positions makes for a very tough character that buffs the group, debuffs the enemies and can still dish out impressive damage.
Here is the build my hunstman is currently using - I dropped frag grenade a while back in favor of the two cone attacks from leviathan mastery - while those cones are a little slow animating, arctic breath gives you extra resistance debuff and bile spray gets double the debuf from venom grenade as it does toxic damage:
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.942
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Midnight Renegade: Level 50 Natural Arachnos Soldier
Primary Power Set: Arachnos Soldier
Secondary Power Set: Bane Spider Training
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Teleportation
Ancillary Pool: Leviathan Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Single Shot -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(3), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5)
Level 1: Bane Spider Armor Upgrade -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), S'fstPrt-ResKB(7)
Level 2: Burst -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(9), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(9), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(11), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11)
Level 4: Combat Training: Defensive -- Krma-ResKB(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(13), DefBuff-I(13)
Level 6: Wide Area Web Grenade -- Enf'dOp-Acc/Rchg(A), Enf'dOp-EndRdx/Immob(15), Enf'dOp-Acc/EndRdx(15), Enf'dOp-Immob/Rng(17), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob/Rchg(17), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob(19)
Level 8: Heavy Burst -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(21), Posi-Dmg/Rng(21), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(23), Achilles-ResDeb%(23)
Level 10: Tactical Training: Maneuvers -- RedFtn-EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(25), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(25), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(27), RedFtn-Def(27)
Level 12: Venom Grenade -- Det'tn-Dmg/Rchg(A), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx(29), Det'tn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(29), Det'tn-Acc/Dmg(31), RechRdx-I(31)
Level 14: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 16: Tactical Training: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 18: Super Jump -- Jump-I(A)
Level 20: Tactical Training: Leadership -- AdjTgt-ToHit(A), AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(31), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(33), AdjTgt-EndRdx/Rchg(33), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx(33)
Level 22: Mental Training -- Run-I(A)
Level 24: Cloaking Device -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(34), LkGmblr-Rchg+(34)
Level 26: Maneuvers -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(34), EndRdx-I(36), LkGmblr-Rchg+(36)
Level 28: Surveillance -- AnWeak-DefDeb(A), AnWeak-Acc/DefDeb(36), AnWeak-Acc/Rchg(37), AnWeak-DefDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 30: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 32: Boxing -- RzDz-Acc/Rchg(A), RzDz-EndRdx/Stun(37), RzDz-Acc/EndRdx(39), RzDz-Stun/Rng(39), RzDz-Acc/Stun/Rchg(39), RzDz-Immob%(40)
Level 35: Tough -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(40), EndRdx-I(40), S'fstPrt-ResKB(42)
Level 38: Weave -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(42), EndRdx-I(42), LkGmblr-Rchg+(43)
Level 41: School of Sharks -- Acc-I(A)
Level 44: Bile Spray -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(45), Posi-Dmg/Rng(45), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(46), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 47: Arctic Breath -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(48), Posi-Dmg/Rng(50), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(50), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 49: Recall Friend -- EndRdx-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- ULeap-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(43), Mrcl-Rcvry+(43)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(46), P'Shift-End%(48)
Level 1: Conditioning
Level 4: Ninja Run
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Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
Wow, thanks for all the great info. I'm definitely not against doing some damage, but I love when the attacks have even a minor 5% debuff. I usually have no trouble finding damage dealing pubbies to team with, so a friend and I will use combos like Ice/Rad troller and Kin/Rad blast defender and then we pick up all damage and we usually have zero problem pumping the difficulty up 3+ and ripping through mobs.
There's so much good info in here, so I thank you guys. I guess it's fairly obvious my decision will be between Fortunata and Bane Huntsman (although I'll read through the thread again just in case I'm missing something). The double assault/maneuvers/tactics/vengeance (huge vengeance fan) possibility is amazing so there's no doubt in my mind that a VEAT is the way to go.
Again thanks for taking the time to get me up to speed on VEATs. Anymore info is icing on the cake.
When you reach level 24 and do the respec, do you get access to normal costume options? I have a concept in mind and I need access to one of the pieces from the normal costume creator.
When you reach level 24 and do the respec, do you get access to normal costume options? I have a concept in mind and I need access to one of the pieces from the normal costume creator.
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oh and I'm not 100% certain but I think veats get 1 more costume slot then everyone else total.
I love being a defender. I get that sense of joy that a Stalker must get when he pulls an awesome AS, but I get it every single time I give out SB. Every. Single. Time. I pride myself on being the oil that keeps the gears of my little pubbie teams going. It's just something I think I'm built for.
And now I'd like to build an awesome SoA. Of course I don't want to do any damage. I'd be very happy if I only had attacks that did some debuffing, in fact.
Is this possible? What type of SoA would be best? Is it worth it to make a SoA that is geared strictly to pubbie teaming, where it can give tons of buffs and debuffs out? Pets are fine, especially if they're mini defenders. I honestly don't care if I can't solo a minion, I just want to defend. Help me!