AE farming now OK?


Adeon Hawkwood

 

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Originally Posted by Djeannie View Post
As to power level farming. Don't think there's much that can be done about that. People were farming Dreck with bridges way back in issue 1 and they'd keep farming missions today if AE gave no rewards, with the bonus of purple drops. Maybe allow X year vets to start a character at L22 would help curtail some power level farming.
The problem with PLing is not that somehow making it impossible to do in AE would stop it. It is the change to PLing for newbie players. In the past, a player who wanted to PL had to be proactive, and find out not only where the people who could PL him hung out, but then he had to go find them.

Now, PL for inf is shouted across broadcast in Atlas almost every couple of minutes. A newbie player needs do nothing but join a team, and hence, far more new players end up PLing, and having no clue what they're doing or what the game is about, than would otherwise have done so.

I don't see what the devs can do about though, short of gutting the AE completely.


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When I first joined a little over 2 years ago, I was completely new -- this being my first MMO, and this was before AE. I didn't know the game, didn't know the interface, didn't know squat. I had been poking around on Atlas with my first toon, managed to find my first contact in city hall and did a couple of missions even. Iirc, I was level 3.

Then I got my first invite to a team! I immediately clicked 'yes', and followed along as the team promptly went... into the sewers. In a matter of hours (blazingly fast compared to before), I was at level 10 (maybe even 12). I was thrilled!

At least until I found out about out-leveling your contacts and being unable to complete all their missions, even if for no XP at all. At that point, I felt cheated -- partly due to my own ignorance of the game, partly by the way the game is designed (out-leveling? WTH?), and partly by those Sewer-ites who were getting PL-ed.

And when AE came out, and I saw what most of the community was doing with it, I said "No thanks, I'll pass on Farms" because while I love action, I also love content. I especially passed on (imo) stupid ones like the "save the world and click on a bomb" ones.

But now, I've created a *single* toon expressly for farming (gasp!). It seems the only thing to do to be able to afford even half of the IO's for my developing toons. But even so, I doubt I'll ever pay someone else to PL me.

If I had known about out-leveling, I would have passed on the Sewer Teams from the get-go. I wonder if people new to the game (and new to MMOs) know about out-leveling? I didn't.


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Originally Posted by Doctor_Gemini View Post
I don't see what the devs can do about though, short of gutting the AE completely.
Pull AE out of the beginner zones. Do we really need one in every zone?


 

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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge View Post
Pull AE out of the beginner zones. Do we really need one in every zone?
I wouldn't object to removing AE from Atlas, but keeping it elsewhere. But I would still like an easy way to distinguish "Farm" from "Story".

Or maybe making the AE in each zone 'conform' to that zone's level range -- So the AE in Atlas will only get you to, say, lvl 10? After that, you'd need to go to another zone's AE to continue upwards, possibly breaking the chain when players see there are other zones...


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Originally Posted by Djeannie View Post
Now why would a farmer care about 10 tickets and 1000 exp when a killed minion will give 14k? (+3-4x8) That's nothing to a powerleveler-farmer.
I already said I know very little about farming apart from the fact that i don't want it to infringe on my game. I think a lot of farmers assume that everyone knows what farming entails, and even the nay-sayers have tried it and not liked it, for example. A farming expert would be better suited to estimate the amount of extra inf/tickets/whatever for tagging a farm 'farm' would be incentive enough. Maybe you could suggest a suitable amount?

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Again if you want to stop farming address the core problems in the game that cause farming. Don't try to cure the symptoms of farming. That accomplishes nothing.
I think it's obvious that it's impossible to stop people farming. I don't want to stop all people farming. I want to limit new players exposure to farming and PLing when they start playing, and i want farms in the AE interface to be in a completely separate place to story arcs.

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Originally Posted by Fortress_NA View Post
I wonder if people new to the game (and new to MMOs) know about out-leveling? I didn't.
They don't, and once they've been indoctrinated by the AE PLers in Atlas, they won't care, because they'll think that the game isn't about content, it's about getting to 50 as quickly as possible.

To my mind, the solution to the problem of farming in CoH are easily soveable (or at least vastly mitigated) by two simple methods.

1: Remove AE buildings from Atlas and Mercy.
2: Force the tagging of 'story' or 'farm' for AE arcs to allow publish, and give the farm tagged arcs bonus rewards to incentivise farmers to be honest.

Eco.


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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan View Post
They don't, and once they've been indoctrinated by the AE PLers in Atlas, they won't care, because they'll think that the game isn't about content, it's about getting to 50 as quickly as possible.
I didn't fall victim to the Sewer PLers in Atlas, due to IMO several features. Probably first off was my desire to get/experience *everything* the game had to offer, including storylines as well as superpowered battles.

I can fully understand when a long-time vet who has "done it all before" doesn't want to wade though it all yet again and opts to PL a new toon.

And while I don't understand new players for whom it is all about the number in the top right of their screen (by default), I don't begrudge them that choice. Yet at the same time, by not learning what many would consider even a rudimentary knowledge of the game, they should know they are limiting their ability to interact both socially and in teams outside of AE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan View Post
To my mind, the solution to the problem of farming in CoH are easily soveable (or at least vastly mitigated) by two simple methods.

1: Remove AE buildings from Atlas and Mercy.

2: Force the tagging of 'story' or 'farm' for AE arcs to allow publish, and give the farm tagged arcs bonus rewards to incentivise farmers to be honest.

Eco.
I think that would be an improvement, though not a big one as it will just move the (mostly) remaining "Can I haz PL plz?" broadcasts to a different zone.

Here's a thought. Make the AE buildings their own zones. That way the requests for PLing, even on the broadcast channel, won't permeate the whole outside map. Though I would still love to see a way to specify in a search "Farm or Story".


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I invite everybody to add the above image to your signature as a petition to reverse NCSoft's decision.

 

Posted

Double-XP weekend obviously brought out a lot of players. But for the first time in months, PI broadcast was filled with "$25M per run for +4/x8 Warrior Earth map" and such. I think that only underscores the fact that PL farms are going to happen in AE and portal missions both. Farmers will just switch from one to the other.

What was amazing to me was that during this same period of time (this is on Freedom), Atlas AE was just as busy as normal.


 

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Not really with all the things going on with Issue of 19-21 of this game and the whole Incarnate, It lease the last thing on there minds right now.


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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan View Post
2: Force the tagging of 'story' or 'farm' for AE arcs to allow publish, and give the farm tagged arcs bonus rewards to incentivise farmers to be honest.
Very interesting.


 

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Originally Posted by Crysys View Post
What was amazing to me was that during this same period of time (this is on Freedom), Atlas AE was just as busy as normal.
I saw a similar situation on Virtue. I think this illustrates just how good the rewards are for AE farms if they are able to compete with doubled experience in regular content.


 

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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
I saw a similar situation on Virtue. I think this illustrates just how good the rewards are for AE farms if they are able to compete with doubled experience in regular content.
I overheard an argument as to why someone would be in AE during 2x weekend. The farmer said "I got a character from 1-50 in just over 5 hours yesterday". That pretty much shut everyone else up.

WN


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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan View Post
I think it's obvious that it's impossible to stop people farming. I don't want to stop all people farming. I want to limit new players exposure to farming and PLing when they start playing, and i want farms in the AE interface to be in a completely separate place to story arcs.

1: Remove AE buildings from Atlas and Mercy.
2: Force the tagging of 'story' or 'farm' for AE arcs to allow publish, and give the farm tagged arcs bonus rewards to incentivise farmers to be honest.

Eco.
I think the best suggestion to limit new players to farming was the suggestion made to remove the AE from the starting zones, which you and others have said. Remove it from Mercy and Port Oakes and Atlas Park and Kings Row.

I doubt that the devs will admit to farm arcs by adding a farm style tag. Someone earlier made the suggestion of calling them Challenge Missions or something....that could work if you could get the farmers to label them as such....otherwise it falls to the playerbase to tag stuff as "challenge missions / farms" and we already have something like that in place and it's not working

As to giving the farmers a bonus. The only 3 bonuses there really are, are tickets, exp and inf and you can't give them a huge exp/inf boost. If farms were tagged farm and got 25% more tickets if tagged that way then maybe farmers would do that. they could spend 20 seconds less on a map but that won't affect the power leveler to whom tickets are a nice bennie, they're there for the exp at 4x8.


EDIT: I still feel fixing the issues with the market would reduce the "need" for tickets that people who farm for them feel/desire. If you can buy almost anything by doing regular missions and not having to hope for the triple apoc to sell for 700mil in order to afford something then there would be far less need to go run tickets.


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Originally Posted by Djeannie View Post
EDIT: I still feel fixing the issues with the market would reduce the "need" for tickets that people who farm for them feel/desire. If you can buy almost anything by doing regular missions and not having to hope for the triple apoc to sell for 700mil in order to afford something then there would be far less need to go run tickets.
The problem is that AE farming is heavily tied into the state of the current market. The various AE exploits that have come and gone were a major cause of inflation since they introduced a LOT of extra inf into the economy. While the current crop of inf sinks (primarily the market fee) serve to keep "normal" inf gains reasonably in check they aren't really deflationary so the total amount of inf per player tends to remain the same or even increase a bit over time.

The AE then compounds this because it skews the supply of items available. AE is excellent at generating Rare Salvage and Bronze-roll recipes and is ok at generating Gold-roll recipes but doesn't generate any Purples at all. This means that prices on those items tend to go down (due to increased supply) while prices on Purples tend to go up (since fewer of them are being generated relative to the amount of inf entering the system).


 

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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge View Post
Pull AE out of the beginner zones. Do we really need one in every zone?
That won't do anything besides annoying the people who want to use AE from lvl 1.


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Originally Posted by Wrong_Number View Post
I overheard an argument as to why someone would be in AE during 2x weekend. The farmer said "I got a character from 1-50 in just over 5 hours yesterday". That pretty much shut everyone else up.

WN
Facing +5x8w/b while SKed with you and the farmer is going to out weight being on a full 2xp exp team.


 

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Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer View Post
That won't do anything besides annoying the people who want to use AE from lvl 1.
People who have experience with the game should be able to take a lvl 1 to anywhere in the game without dying or annoyance. (Hollows run anyone?) It is also way easier now that all the train stations are joined.

A fresh new player just logged in will have to traverse some distance rather than save the world by clicking bombs.

In the end, I dont believe it will make that much of a difference. Path of least resistance is path of least resistance.


 

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Originally Posted by SinisterDirge View Post
Pull AE out of the beginner zones. Do we really need one in every zone?
There are days when the AE in the RWZ is every bit as busy as the one in Atlas. Removal won't impact anything other than hurt the 'real' AE writers who make their missions lowbie friendly. Between Mission Transporter powers and TP taxi brigades, travel is no longer an impediment in this game at any level. I've done it the hard way and actually Sprinted dozens of lvl 1 alts from both Red and Blue sides starter points to the RWZ. Vanguard portals have made that much simpler.

If the AE authors really wish for their missions to be viable as replacements/substitutes for NCSoft-written PVE content, then yes...you need an AE in almost every zone, but especially in the starter zone(s) like Atlas.


 

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I disagree.

I do not think that an AE is required in every non-hazard zone. While it is true that it would be a minor inconvenience for a veteran to get a level one to any other zone, it would be significantly more difficult for someone brand new to the game. If someone want to power level their friends through AE (or any other content) they will find a way to do it.

The point of removing AE from the starter zones is not to prevent or hinder power-leveling or ticket farming or story arc writing. The point is to take the farming and the broadcast chatter that goes with it to a place that a brand new player might find after having at least a few "hard earned" levels to his or her name.


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Originally Posted by Crysys View Post
There are days when the AE in the RWZ is every bit as busy as the one in Atlas. Removal won't impact anything other than hurt the 'real' AE writers who make their missions lowbie friendly. Between Mission Transporter powers and TP taxi brigades, travel is no longer an impediment in this game at any level. I've done it the hard way and actually Sprinted dozens of lvl 1 alts from both Red and Blue sides starter points to the RWZ. Vanguard portals have made that much simpler.
Lowbie friendly AE missions appeal to vets more than new players. New players don't need them. They still have developer-created content to experience. The vets who have already done said content a million times can, like you said, easily reach Kings Row or Port Oakes and use the AE there. It's certainly a lot easier than finding an actual lowbie-friendly arc in the morass of 1-54 custom group arcs with Extreme Archvillain warnings.


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Posted

Not sure how practical it is, but I'd really like if you could get level-appropriate AE story arcs from regular contacts in the game. So Azuria or Back Alley Brawler might be able to give you a lowbie AE mission, or maybe there'd be some entirely new contact that managed AE-specific missions for that level range. This would be a lot more immersive than the current "virtual reality entertainment" set up that we currently have. We could then maybe move the AE building to its own extraplanar zone, like how Ouroboros is right now. Unproven arcs, work-in-progress arcs, challenge arcs, and perhaps farm arcs, could be played there instead.

Of course a certain amount of quality control would be necessary to ensure the contacts refer you to story arcs that are at least semi-decent and not to incomplete test arcs or deathtrap challenges. This would potentially be a lot of work, but it's possible you might get the player base to do this work for you.


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Originally Posted by Amy_Amp View Post
Depends on how you define "considered fine." To me it's a valid play style outside of PLing newbies which end up generating players with level 50s and still ignorant of the basics. I have just about got a level 50 SS/fire and a near level 50 Claws/fire via self PLing them in the AE and to me it has been an interesting experience and I learned from it. I even learned some aspects of using AE that I didn't know about since I hardly use the AE before. I got all of the AE stuff unlocked so at some point I'll start to poke around and see what I can come up with. Without rolling a ticket generator, that doesn't happen.
Very true, I'd also like to add that I have no problem with people PLing newbies to 50 as long as they're willing to teach that newbie the basics of the game once they've dinged 50. What I don't particularly like is farmers who just PL newbies and then leave them to get on with it, with no understanding of how to form or join teams, build their characters or play the game.


 

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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
The problem is that AE farming is heavily tied into the state of the current market. The various AE exploits that have come and gone were a major cause of inflation since they introduced a LOT of extra inf into the economy. While the current crop of inf sinks (primarily the market fee) serve to keep "normal" inf gains reasonably in check they aren't really deflationary so the total amount of inf per player tends to remain the same or even increase a bit over time.

The AE then compounds this because it skews the supply of items available. AE is excellent at generating Rare Salvage and Bronze-roll recipes and is ok at generating Gold-roll recipes but doesn't generate any Purples at all. This means that prices on those items tend to go down (due to increased supply) while prices on Purples tend to go up (since fewer of them are being generated relative to the amount of inf entering the system).
I agree and this goes right back to my post on fixing the market. The market shouldn't have to depend on the AE to generate bronze/gold recipes and salvage, doing missions and normal game content should but it doesn't.


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The tickets from AE help to keep prices of certain items in the market low by increasing it's supply.

You may have noticed that the price of rare salvage in the market has come down slightly while uncommon and certain common salvage have shot up in price. I attribute that, in large part, to players being able to choose their rewards with tickets.


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Originally Posted by Djeannie View Post
I agree and this goes right back to my post on fixing the market. The market shouldn't have to depend on the AE to generate bronze/gold recipes and salvage, doing missions and normal game content should but it doesn't.
Tell me, how long does it take you to outlevel the ability to generate Steadfast Protection, or Reactive Armor, or any of the other desirable pool A recipes that cap out below level 50? With tickets, you never outlevel the ability to generate them, and you roll them at their level cap.

As for the uncommons that do cap out at 50, many of them are dirt cheap, and they weren't that expensive even before AE. I think it's a safe bet that the market isn't depending on AE for those. Gold recipes aren't an efficient use of tickets, and I'm guessing much of the supply comes from alignment and reward merit rolls.

As for salvage, we've had this conversation in the market forum. If you have a problem with the supply and price of Circuit Boards, go log in a mid-level character and beat up some Freaks until one drops. If you're not willing to do that, you don't get to complain about the supply of mid-level salvage.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Djeannie View Post
I agree and this goes right back to my post on fixing the market. The market shouldn't have to depend on the AE to generate bronze/gold recipes and salvage, doing missions and normal game content should but it doesn't.
Well as Eva said the AE sucks for generating Gold recipes (although with AE farming on the rise this could change).

What the AE does generate very well though is certain Bronze recipes and certain salvage types (primarily high level rare salvage and mid level common salvage). I wouldn't say that the market depends on that supply but it does keep the price on them lower than it would be otherwise. I do tend to agree that the AE should not be specifically better than normal content for generating these but the only practical fixes I can see would require either that the AE drops regular rewards instead of tickets (something the devs are unlikely to do due to the possibilities for purple farming) or a complete overhaul of the IO system combining level-less IOs with a change to the drop ratios in normal content (which is unlikely to happen).