Quote:
Removing HOF and the subsequent extra arc slot.
|
Originally Posted by Zamuel
Um, they already removed the badges for receiving Hall of Fame...or am I misunderstanding that part of the question?
|
The extra arc slot is only for Dev Choice. Hall of Fame is not a big deal yet it is. HoF doesn't award anything directly. I think there's one badge for playing a HoF but it's for playing any with that designation as opposed to you receiving it. It becomes a big deal due to two things:
- The concept of your fellow players liking your work. The worth has been debated a bit with farms hitting HoF.
- Publicity. A lot of the problem with AE simply comes down to advertising. HoF means you're on one of the first few pages as opposed to 456.
Quote:
It's my belief that the 'most of the story arcs are crap writing' is basically a strawman argumentfrom the hardcore farmers. it comes acrsoos as 'I WOULD play story arcs if the writing was good', but IMO they wouldn't because no matter how great the writing is, they don't want to waste time on text.|
Originally Posted by Zamuel
Some have stated that they don't do AE because they feel a lot of the writing simply isn't good. The question I prevent to you is, what is it that you dislike? Is it typos? While people should fix these on their own, this is where the part of being hungry for feedback comes in, plus more eyes help. Is it style choices? If most writers have a Coke style writing and you prefer Pepsi nothing can be done about individual arcs but perhaps you could be directed to arcs that better suit your tastes. Is it things like logic errors/story conflicts? This is also where feedback comes into play and is probably more useful than typo fixes since a typo is easier to fix.
|
I've yet to see a farmer saying 'most of the story arcs are rubbish, but here's a list of story arcs which I really enjoyed, and why.'
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Crysys
I'm playing a VIDEO game, not reading a book on my Kindle. The reading should be supplemental to the battles and action. Just like many of the posters here, there's waaaaay too much talk and not enough substance in the mission itself.
This is one reason I like farms. The emphasis is on action and lots of it. If I want to read a book I'll go do that. I play COH for action, not as a fancy chat client. |
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
Quote:
I would be very happy to see ALL rewards bar the enjoyment of the narrative removed from the AE. Death To Disco (Ac ID 84420) would still be a hilarious well-crafted arc even without any beans to count IMO, and the many well-written entertaining story arcs out there would still thrill, engage, provoke thoughts, amuse and excite as well. |
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Mostly hoping for best sellers, but getting 10 for $1 bin at walmart. Sure, there are some diamonds in there, but that is only after much digging.
Its the same for farms though, there are many, many bad, unorganized and plain painfull farms out there. My turn. Since it is proposed so often to be rid of xp/ticket rewards in AE, what if they got rid of the HOF, Dev Choice and badge rewards. What if there were no rewards at all. Would the majority of arc writers still be interested in writing? |
Turning your question around, if you play farm arcs for the action and the challenge, would removal of the shinies stop you?
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
Quote:
That's a very valid point too. It could be because people feel the game starts at 50. I play Guild Wars now and then and there are only 20 levels in that game, not terribly difficult to get to but does take some time and the devs designed that game to actually start at L20, about 70% of its content is geared to the L20 player/party, so there it kind of makes sense but here? The game ends at L50 and then you get incarnate grinding or repeating the few things there are to do at 50, which of course the devs are trying to address as they can.|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
I think the real reason is a combination of the fact that unfortunately, a lot of people are simply cretins who don't like to read, and the prevalence of the WoW-attitude that the game begins at 50 or for some reason a toon at the level cap is the thing to get as soon as possible. And it is easy to get to 50 quickly in the AE.
Eco. |
Though really the why is a combination of many of these things if not all of them and many of them can be addressed in various ways.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Hania
Personally I would like to see AE unlocked at level 50 just like VEATS where. I do not mind people farming or being PL'd, I do however have issues with new players being groped into into AE for a fast lvl 50 and then having no real clue of how to play the game in general.
I must admit, I did love playing the game at lower levels and it actually meant something getting my first lvl 50. People miss out on the lower content, the fun of actually teaming with others and running from the hospital back to the mission! Oh, how I miss the old hollows!  |
For me the game really starts around L26-30. You get most of your powers and have slots by then, the stories get more interesting and are varied enough you may not have seen them all compared to L1-20. Interestingly enough I'm looking forward to the revamp to see if it rekindles enjoyment of the early levels with Freedom.
Djeannie's Costume Creator Overhaul Wishlist
Carnie Base
"Once the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote" -Kosh
^^^
The fundamental point of "the game begins at 50" is that you can do stuff at 50, fully slotted with IO's and sporting all T4'd Incarnates, that you cannot do at any other level of the game. If you exemp down for lower level content, and you built your toon properly, you are still more powerful than your 'peers' at equal levels. IO's even exacerbated this feeling that 50 is the starting point of superdom since its only at 50 that you have all the set bonuses across the entire build possible. Yes, people will trot out "its the journey not the destination" arguments, but the reality is that in a superhero game level 50 -IS- the super-est of superhero's roaming the streets.
And has already been said....try/b LFT some time in busy zones like Atlas or Talos. Then go try and do the same thing inside Pocket D. You'll find teams all the time in Pocket D running iTrials and be able to run multiple BAF's in the time it takes it get a single PUG even on a busy server like Freedom. Unless you like Farms, of course....easier to get a Farming team now in Atlas than a sewer team (remember those????).
The Devs created a game that rewards you for achieving lvl 50. This wasn't always the case. Pre-incarnate and pre-IO's, level 50 = "my badger" or maybe "my Hami raid costume" or, more likely, just plain old retirement.
Now, 50's are far more active in everyday missions than they used to be. There was a time the only place you'd find a 50 was in PI or perma-parked in The Hive for Hami raids. Now you see them running Tips missions in Steel Canyon. How many of these lvl 50's are AE baby's do you think? I'd be willing to bet a lot of them are. And if the AE babies are playing their 50's, even if playing them poorly, then its a win for the community and a financial win for NCSoft. Win-Win. Who care's how these people got to 50? Who cares how they play? Elitists may care, but in the end, all I care is that we have PLAYERS in this game that PLAY the game so I'm not running around totally empty zones feeling I'm playing in a ghost town.
Quote:
Reading a story is not a group activity. Its a personal pursuit, unless we are talking about reading a bedtime story to a child. Again, I think you miss the point of what makes the game fun and exciting for a (overwhelmingly?) large percentage of the playerbase. Its an action video game. Nobody likes to wait at the mission door for extensive periods of time while someone reads the next chapter pre-amble. The Dev's understand this...this is why TF's have fairly short textual updates between missions in the arc. |
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
I like to read books, and i like to play story arcs. The enjoyment I get from either is similar. i'd be prepared to bet that all the story-arc fans in the MA community also like to read books. I understand that not everyone is alike, but I simply don't believe that people who trot out the old 'if I want to read a story I'll read a book' line actually read books in RL either.
|
In this manner, most of the AE mission arcs I've run are slanted mostly towards solo players who are willing to take the time to read everything...nobody else waiting on this. Waiting while someone else reads stuff isn't fun for me. Maybe for you?
Quote:
This is one sentiment I haven't come across, but if it exists, it's laughable. Many, many plots in the actual CoH game are incredibly boring. Actually, I'd say some of the most interesting plots I've come across have been AE plots.|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
It's my belief that the 'most of the story arcs are crap writing' is basically a strawman argumentfrom the hardcore farmers. it comes acrsoos as 'I WOULD play story arcs if the writing was good', but IMO they wouldn't because no matter how great the writing is, they don't want to waste time on text.
I've yet to see a farmer saying 'most of the story arcs are rubbish, but here's a list of story arcs which I really enjoyed, and why.' |
Although something needs to be done, I don't think trashing the rewards is a good idea. Personally, I like using AE as a levelling alternative to the normal game, especially, in the low levels. I wish more players would make arcs with a particular level range in mind, to fill a gap or provide an alternative. My arc design focus from now on will be to create arcs in a similar vein to how existing game arcs are built, to provide that alternative. I started that with 10-14 Bad Voodoo continuation of Mr. Bocor's missions, but now I'm going to write something to fill that 1-4 hole in Mercy Island. Kalinda and Burke have grown far, far too stale.
Bad Voodoo by @Beyond Reach. Arc ID #373659. Level 20-24. Mr. Bocor has fallen victim to a group of hooded vigilantes who have been plaguing Port Oakes, interfering with illegal operations and pacifying villain's powers. He demands that revenge is taken on these miscreants and his powers are returned! You look like just the villain for the job. Challenging.
Quote:
We obviously have a very different concept of how long of a wait is too much. Maybe farmers have shorter attention spans than me, i don't know. I enjoy playing story arcs in a duo with my SG-mate, and a big part of the enjoyment is jointly discovering the story. Waiting for her to read a misison briefing or copying and pasting a clue for her isn't something I class as at all onerous, because we are both interested in the story. If you routinely team with tl;dr players, and you are one yourself, then it's understandable that you prefer to just race through hitting things for metagame reasons, and if it's the destination not the journey that is important to you, then since reading a clue doesn't grant xp or recipes, then obviously you're going to want to avoid any narrative.|
Originally Posted by Crysys
Reading a story is not a group activity. Its a personal pursuit, unless we are talking about reading a bedtime story to a child. Again, I think you miss the point of what makes the game fun and exciting for a (overwhelmingly?) large percentage of the playerbase. Its an action video game. Nobody likes to wait at the mission door for extensive periods of time while someone reads the next chapter pre-amble. The Dev's understand this...this is why TF's have fairly short textual updates between missions in the arc.
In this manner, most of the AE mission arcs I've run are slanted mostly towards solo players who are willing to take the time to read everything...nobody else waiting on this. Waiting while someone else reads stuff isn't fun for me. Maybe for you? |
I think we at least both agree that the problem with the AE at present isn't that:
there's too many farmers
or
there's too many story arcs
but that they are not segregated. The farms in the AE interface are in direct competition with the story arcs, and it's that which causes such bad feeling towards the AE farm community from the story writers. It's not necessarily the farm writers/users fault. But it IS a problem.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
Quote:
Mostly in agreement, yes. Although I don't see the Search engine as representative of a "competition" between the farms and 'genuine' story arcs at all. Farmers don't care about the story arcs. Story Arc'ers obviously do care about being lumped in with the 'riff-raff' that is farms. |
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
The farms in the AE interface are in direct competition with the story arcs, and it's that which causes such bad feeling towards the AE farm community from the story writers. It's not necessarily the farm writers/users fault. But it IS a problem.
Eco. |
I think its just a feeling on the part of those who write and enjoy reading others' writing that the AE farms are more popular than their own 'legitimate' efforts. And thats a swipe to ego no matter how its sliced and diced. If I were Hemmingway and the AE was the only outlet for publishing my works, I'd likely be pretty upset if my stuff was cluttered up with a bunch of comic books.
Quote:
Yep. Bob Dylan probably spits and snarls every time he walks into a music store and realizes that Lady Gaga's music is available under the same roof as his. |
Originally Posted by Crysys
If I were Hemmingway and the AE was the only outlet for publishing my works, I'd likely be pretty upset if my stuff was cluttered up with a bunch of comic books.
|
Or, you know, maybe he would have confidence in the fact that his music will probably stand the test of time.
Quote:
Actually, what annoys me is 50 million versions of the exact same farm cluttering up the interface. Same maps, same enemies, same mechanics, different costumes. If you got rid of every farm that was a near exact copy of another farm you'd probably only have a couple dozen farm arcs left.|
Originally Posted by Crysys
I think its just a feeling on the part of those who write and enjoy reading others' writing that the AE farms are more popular than their own 'legitimate' efforts. And thats a swipe to ego no matter how its sliced and diced. If I were Hemmingway and the AE was the only outlet for publishing my works, I'd likely be pretty upset if my stuff was cluttered up with a bunch of comic books.
|
Then you'd just have another 50 former exploits and their 100 million copies clogging up your ability to find the farm you want.
So, you can call me elitist if you like, but I have nothing but contempt for those who find they like something and make exact copies. I really don't care about the farm makers who design original farms.
I also think it won't matter what anyone thinks about them in a very short time. With Freedom coming, and the ability to buy AE access, the devs are going to have to gut AE for everyone or have the I14 debacle all over again. All the AE exploits did was make power leveling slightly faster, it's still far easier, and much more accessible to new players, with AE as it is now. Anything they do to prevent this is going to hurt all sides, except those who think removing rewards will have any effect other than completely killing AE off.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
Quote:
In terms of how many others do I see? Not much, but I'm not sure it's that much lower than a number of other zones in the game outside of the heavily populated ones.
|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
I hear you. How many folks are you sharing the zone with while running goldside?
|
Quote:
But the farm arcs arent even comic books in the eyes of the creative types. I don't mean 'competition' in the sense of 'oh, someone prefers a farm arc to my story arc', to me, that's like I've got a restaurant and someone posts a review saying 'This restaurant fails badly at selling me lapshades' lol. By competition, I mean that both farms and story arcs are 'on sale' in the same place, the AE interface. And because of the mechanics of how farms are played, ie over and over, repetitively, they're going to rise to the front pages.|
Originally Posted by Crysys
Mostly in agreement, yes. Although I don't see the Search engine as representative of a "competition" between the farms and 'genuine' story arcs at all. Farmers don't care about the story arcs. Story Arc'ers obviously do care about being lumped in with the 'riff-raff' that is farms.
I think its just a feeling on the part of those who write and enjoy reading others' writing that the AE farms are more popular than their own 'legitimate' efforts. And thats a swipe to ego no matter how its sliced and diced. If I were Hemmingway and the AE was the only outlet for publishing my works, I'd likely be pretty upset if my stuff was cluttered up with a bunch of comic books. |
Please understand that it's not about 'popularity'. However many people like and play a farm arc is irrelevant to me, because I don't write farm arcs. if there was a farm tab and a story arc tab in the AE interface, I'd never open the farm tab, and my arcs placing in the story arcs tabs leaderboard would actually be meaningful because it would be in a place where it would be judged amongst its peers.
I try to avoid using language like 'legitimate' and 'genuine' arcs for story arcs, since a farm arc, as long as its not an exploit, is as legitimate as a story arc. They are both arc, but they are not the same in terms of what they're for or how they're made, and they shouldn't be gathered together in the same place.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
A tab for farms might be a good idea. The devs could silently add it, if they want to avoid openly commenting that they now OFFICIALLY approve of farms.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
If they do separate the two, they should make story arcs provide a boost in arc completion ticket rewards - not so much that they are superior to farms, but enough that those who choose to play real arcs instead of farms do get a little something.
Bad Voodoo by @Beyond Reach. Arc ID #373659. Level 20-24. Mr. Bocor has fallen victim to a group of hooded vigilantes who have been plaguing Port Oakes, interfering with illegal operations and pacifying villain's powers. He demands that revenge is taken on these miscreants and his powers are returned! You look like just the villain for the job. Challenging.
Quote:
It could not possibly be worse than the current situation.
| Anything they do to prevent this is going to hurt all sides, except those who think removing rewards will have any effect other than completely killing AE off. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Venture...you essentially said "It can't get any worse." Oh boy.
Quote:
Why? The reward for playing a "real" arc is the story, right? Keep all AE missions the same, just segregated. Separate but equal.
|
Originally Posted by BeyondReach
If they do separate the two, they should make story arcs provide a boost in arc completion ticket rewards - not so much that they are superior to farms, but enough that those who choose to play real arcs instead of farms do get a little something.
|
This thread is going downhill faster than Lindsey Vonn in a bikini!
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
Quote:
The problem with that is regulation. There isn't any practical solution to automatically filter for farms that wouldn't be trivial to bypass so unless Paragon Studios hires a bunch of people to spend all of their time vetting AE arcs to make sure they are in the right tab you're reliant on the arc creators to put them in the right tab. The moment story arcs give better rewards than farm arcs every farm creator will tag their farm as a story arc simply to get the better rewards. Any system designed to separate story and farm arcs should keep in mind the idea that farm arc creators do not (in all probability) care how their arc is tagged unless it affects rewards while story arc creators probably do care. I wouldn't go as far as to advocate farm tagged arcs giving better rewards (although that would be an option) but if I were implementing such a system I would do everything possible to make creating a farm tagged arc easier than creating a story tagged arc. Specifically:|
Originally Posted by BeyondReach
If they do separate the two, they should make story arcs provide a boost in arc completion ticket rewards - not so much that they are superior to farms, but enough that those who choose to play real arcs instead of farms do get a little something.
|
1. All existing arcs are tagged as farm arcs (people who care about their stories will be more willing to update their arc than someone who created an old farm using an exploit that no longer works)
2. New arcs are set to "farm" by default (again, story writers will care enough to change this, farm creators are unlikely to)
3. The AE arc window defaults to the farm tab the first time you open it (after that it defaults to the last tab you looked at)
Quote:
I agree, there's no need to 'bribe' layers to play Story Arcs. If there were better rewards for story arcs, the farmers would begin searching for a way to disguise their farms as story arcs or something. Which would possibly be entertaining, however.|
Originally Posted by Crysys
Why? The reward for playing a "real" arc is the story, right? Keep all AE missions the same, just segregated. Separate but equal.
|
But seriously, I think story arcs and farms should offer the same reward system as each other.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
Quote:
Good ideas all.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
1. All existing arcs are tagged as farm arcs (people who care about their stories will be more willing to update their arc than someone who created an old farm using an exploit that no longer works)
2. New arcs are set to "farm" by default (again, story writers will care enough to change this, farm creators are unlikely to) 3. The AE arc window defaults to the farm tab the first time you open it (after that it defaults to the last tab you looked at) |
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
Quote:
People really should read people's posts. I was saying that story arcs should not provide superior rewards to farms. They should just provide better rewards than they currently do.
|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
I agree, there's no need to 'bribe' layers to play Story Arcs. If there were better rewards for story arcs, the farmers would begin searching for a way to disguise their farms as story arcs or something. Which would possibly be entertaining, however.
But seriously, I think story arcs and farms should offer the same reward system as each other. Eco. |
Bad Voodoo by @Beyond Reach. Arc ID #373659. Level 20-24. Mr. Bocor has fallen victim to a group of hooded vigilantes who have been plaguing Port Oakes, interfering with illegal operations and pacifying villain's powers. He demands that revenge is taken on these miscreants and his powers are returned! You look like just the villain for the job. Challenging.
Quote:
I read your post the same way Eco did.|
Originally Posted by BeyondReach
People really should read people's posts. I was saying that story arcs should not provide superior rewards to farms. They should just provide better rewards than they currently do.
|
Quote:
| If they do separate the two, they should make story arcs provide a boost in arc completion ticket rewards - not so much that they are superior to farms, but enough that those who choose to play real arcs instead of farms do get a little something. |
-----
Mission Architect Handyman