Is the currently published back story adequate?
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Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-07-14 15:07 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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To be honest, I haven't followed all this stuff (if it gets too complicated, I tend to just ignore it and keep hitting stuff, much like my teaching style). So you're saying that if a character wants to get more powerful, beyond the standard stuff, they have to become the incarnate of a deity, like Hephaestus or something?
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Originally Posted by Melancton
I recognize the merit in what you are saying here, especially since I grapple with how to address the Insane Well Making Folks Immortal bit that, as you say, has landed on our toes.
(I have said that I am adopting the MST3K position of "It is just a show, I should really just relax," but someone pointed out that a more accurate description of my approach is that I am covering my ears and shouting "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" So it is surely a mess for a lot of folks.) But I view the Incarnate lore less as the Devs overstepping their jobs and more as doing their jobs poorly here. Example: There should be a unified, coherent explanation for why Dark Astoria is the way it is. Not only is there not (Has Astoria been restored at some point? If not, why are there Vanguard billboards there? Etc.) but the Devs wrote into canon that the city leaders and the heroes, upon realizing the BP could not be expelled, put up War Walls, which prevented any escape by Astoria's residents, and they were all slaughtered and now their spirits roam about. That just reeks. I had always understood it to be that the residents were slaughtered and the War Walls went up afterward, but I was referred to the canon that said differently. Bad form and bad writing. The Incarnate lore likewise should have been as open-ended as the Magic origin was when the game launched. Instead, to draw the parallel, if Tony Stark wants to boost his Iron Man armor's performance, he has to become the Incarnate of a diety... what??? He can't, oh, I don't know, develop a better reactor power plant for the suit like he did in the second movie? NOPE. HE IS AN INCARNATE *clik* INCARNATE *clik* INCARNATE *clik* INCARNATE *clik* INCARNATE. What a mess. Some things can be attributed to typos and the like. It seems pretty clear to me that all of the references in Eden to "Ms. Liberty" should actually be references to her mother, MISS Liberty, since they refer to her fighting alongside Galaxy Girl, who was a contemporary and friend to MISS Liberty. That can be tidied up. But what do you do with the Incarnate lore, which is frankly both stupid and by its inferences, an unnecessary breaking of the fourth wall? The Devs just are not doing the job properly, and there are too many examples of how it can be done, and done EXCELLENTLY. And I shall bang the drum again: PAGING DOCTOR TROY HICKMAN! DOCTOR HICKMAN TO THE EMERGENCY ROOM, STAT! PAGING DOCTOR TROY HICKMAN... |
Troy Hickman - So proud to have contributed to and played in this wonderful CoH universe
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The devs wanted to tack on more powers, without (officially) raising the level cap, and do it in a way that would explain how after seven years of being happy at 50, all of the universe's greatest heroes and villains suddenly started to gain incredible cosmic power all at the same time, and fit all that within Paragon's budget. |
Originally Posted by Melancton
The Incarnate lore likewise should have been as open-ended as the Magic origin was when the game launched. Instead, to draw the parallel, if Tony Stark wants to boost his Iron Man armor's performance, he has to become the Incarnate of a diety... what??? He can't, oh, I don't know, develop a better reactor power plant for the suit like he did in the second movie? NOPE. HE IS AN INCARNATE *clik* INCARNATE *clik* INCARNATE *clik* INCARNATE *clik* INCARNATE.
What a mess. |
Or basically, its Bellisario's Maxim. I'm not saying its pretty, but there are reasons beyond simply bad writing. And its not like even the players on the game have a strict adherence to canon to begin with. Game reality is always what you yourself make of it.
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My Tech hero isn't an Incarnate of a deity, but instead the Well has increased his already powerful mind to "Incarnate levels"; he built better armor and weaponry because of it. |
Originally Posted by Melancton
The Incarnate lore likewise should have been as open-ended as the Magic origin was when the game launched. Instead, to draw the parallel, if Tony Stark wants to boost his Iron Man armor's performance, he has to become the Incarnate of a diety... what??? He can't, oh, I don't know, develop a better reactor power plant for the suit like he did in the second movie? NOPE. HE IS AN INCARNATE *clik* INCARNATE *clik* INCARNATE *clik* INCARNATE *clik* INCARNATE
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I don't think the lore or the Devs state you have to be an Incarnate of a deity ...
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That seems to be the his understanding, but that isn't the case. You get power from the Well. The "gods" of the past got their power from the Well. It doesn't automatically follow that your character must get his power from that god. Your hero gets his power from the Well too. Gods need not be involved. |
Originally Posted by TroyHickman
To be honest, I haven't followed all this stuff (if it gets too complicated, I tend to just ignore it and keep hitting stuff, much like my teaching style). So you're saying that if a character wants to get more powerful, beyond the standard stuff, they have to become the incarnate of a deity, like Hephaestus or something?
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There's room to "explain" it as whatever you want, really.
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Avogadro, Science Lord
Edgar Nightcraft, Doc Cicada, Chupa Macabre, Dr Forchtenstein, Blood Shrew
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...is a COOKBOOK!!!|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
the Coming Storm
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And every powered person, whether Hero or Villain or somewhere in between, who has 'unlocked' the so-called 'Alpha Slot' (or worse!) on the Incarnate Path is a properly prepared and measured ingredient in the Coming Storm's Ultimate Recipe of DOoOooOooom!!!
The Well is a Lie!
(see also: it's a trap!)
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No, that might have been sort of interesting in its own right. The current system posits that the Well of Furies is itself some sort of Cthulu-level mad cosmic being that is sharing its power with individual humans in multiple dimensions in pursuit of an agenda that doesn't currently make a lot of sense.|
Originally Posted by TroyHickman
To be honest, I haven't followed all this stuff (if it gets too complicated, I tend to just ignore it and keep hitting stuff, much like my teaching style). So you're saying that if a character wants to get more powerful, beyond the standard stuff, they have to become the incarnate of a deity, like Hephaestus or something?
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Your hero's first introduction to the Well involves said entity possessing Statesman and rendering him into a helpless sock puppet for the purposes of conversation. I don't know about anybody else, but that right there is a good enough reason for most of my chars to avoid touching it with a ten-foot pole.
That self-same entity is not just powering all these Incarnates - it is also overpowering the current Black Hat, Tyrant of The Evil Goatee Universe Next Door and helping him set out on a rampage of conquering every universe in existence. From a certain standpoint, the whole conflict with Praetoria centers around your char attempting to save the world by defeating Emperor Cole and proving to the Well that s/he is a more appropriate choice for sock puppet, er, avatar, than Cole is. Presumably, that gives him/her/it enough cosmic power to take on the Coming Storm at some unknown point in the future.
Troy is clearly the avatar of Beetlejuice.
Hickman! HICKman! HICKMAN!
*POOF*
It's SHOW time!
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It's like this:|
Originally Posted by TroyHickman
To be honest, I haven't followed all this stuff (if it gets too complicated, I tend to just ignore it and keep hitting stuff, much like my teaching style). So you're saying that if a character wants to get more powerful, beyond the standard stuff, they have to become the incarnate of a deity, like Hephaestus or something?
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You're familiar with the Speed Force from DC's the Flash? No matter what the speedster's origin (hit by lightning, magical mantra, chemical formula) they get their speed and power from a quasi-mystical extra dimensional force called the Speed Force.
In CoH the lore now says that regardless of your origin (Tech, Natural, Mutant) you get your power from a quasi-mystical construct called the Well, which is both sentient and a jerk. And if you want more power at 50, you must suck up to the Well and become an Incarnate of its power by doing Incarnate trials(raids) because the Well is big on meritocracy.
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Our villains were maxed out at level 40 for months. We did not get an explanation for why we could suddenly gain more levels beyond that. For years, there was one guy in Paragon City who used a shield. We did not get an explanation for why suddenly you couldn't swing a dead catgirl without hitting a Captain America rip-off.|
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
The devs wanted to tack on more powers, without (officially) raising the level cap, and do it in a way that would explain how after seven years of being happy at 50, all of the universe's greatest heroes and villains suddenly started to gain incredible cosmic power all at the same time, and fit all that within Paragon's budget.
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We did get an explanation for why Corruptors could suddenly use bows and Scrappers could set themselves on fire. It was terrible and unnecessary. We also got an explanation for why we could create our own missions. If you use AE and accept its backstory, your character is an idiot. Don't get me started on Ouroboros. We also got a story arc dealing with the emergency mediport system. It has plot holes you could drive a Kronos titan through.
On the other hand, we don't get an explanation for what influence is, or what enhancements are, or how the heck Valkyrie, a tech-origin Scrapper, can train your magic origin Defender. Does the lack of a story explanation for these gameplay elements diminish your enjoyment of the game in any way? I certainly haven't seen numerous threads on these subjects, so I'm guessing no.
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Originally Posted by TroyHickman
To be honest, I haven't followed all this stuff (if it gets too complicated, I tend to just ignore it and keep hitting stuff, much like my teaching style). So you're saying that if a character wants to get more powerful, beyond the standard stuff, they have to become the incarnate of a deity, like Hephaestus or something?
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Originally Posted by Mallerick
That seems to be the his understanding, but that isn't the case. You get power from the Well. The "gods" of the past got their power from the Well. It doesn't automatically follow that your character must get his power from that god. Your hero gets his power from the Well too. Gods need not be involved.
There's room to "explain" it as whatever you want, really. |
1) Statesman has been held out as "The Incarnate of Zeus" ALL ALONG, lightning bolts and all, not "The Incarnate of the Well" or some other generalized concept. Zeus was specified. The Well now is "incarnating" others, but there are no gods involved?
2) Looking at the definitions of Incarnate, the following are the most common:
Adjective: (esp. of a deity or spirit) Embodied in flesh; in human form: "God incarnate".
Verb: Embody or represent (a deity or spirit) in human form.
SOMEBODY is getting "put into human flesh" when you become an Incarnate, and it is not the same deal as a Kheldian. If the Devs did not mean what "incarnate" means, they should have called it something different. As it stands, it is the equivalent of using the word "diseased" and insisting it means "happy" or something. Put another way, the parrot is DEAD, he is NOT "pining for the fjords!"
There is only "room to explain it as whatever you want" if you ignore the lore about Statesmand and the plain meaning of the words used and go "LALALALA I'm not listening to you" to the lore (which I personally am
) because there isn't any leeway otherwise.3) The Well, as has been said by Slick Riptide, makes Statesman into a sockpuppet and speaks through him. In fact, Slick's description of the plot involving the sentient Well is pretty apt. And it is craptacular writing. (The lore by the Devs, not Slick's, heh
)My appeal to Doctor Hickman was that he has worked within the CoH lore and created compelling, enjoyable and dare I say it, INSPIRING fiction using the cast that he was handed. With some subtle changes in emphasis, Troy had Statesman, usually depicted as a ham-handed dictator, cast in a favorable and even sympathetic light.
Dr. Hickman is amazing, and he could cure the Well/Incarnate business, sick as it currently is. I wish the Devs would make it so and bring him on board again. And pay him lavishly to save this. But I suppose that while I am wishing, I ought to toss world peace in there, too...
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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This point in particular is the deal breaker. It is made perfectly clear that the Well is offering a classic Faustian bargain. No sane, ethical being would have anything to do with the Well once this revelation is made, except perhaps to try to destroy it if that were possible, even at the expense of destroying all superhumans or removing all superpowers.
| Your hero's first introduction to the Well involves said entity possessing Statesman and rendering him into a helpless sock puppet for the purposes of conversation. I don't know about anybody else, but that right there is a good enough reason for most of my chars to avoid touching it with a ten-foot pole. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
The latest revelation about the nature of The Well (at least this is my understanding) is that its powers come from people. During their lives people can gain access to power through various means (the origins) but when they (truly) die, their power doesn't disapear, it coalesces in The Well.
If a person reaches the limit to the amount of power they can gain, they can call on the powers of The Well (if The Well 'decides' that they are 'worthy') This means they are getting the powers generated by people who are gone. So, Statesman is Zeus Incarnate because he has access to the power that once belonged to the being called Zeus. When Statesman dies, whatever powers were his will go into The Well and one day someone might be able to claim the powers of Statesman, thus becoming his Incarnate.
In terms of getting the powers, there seem to be two ways: Direct and indirect. Direct means you take a whole chunk of power straight from The Well, opening yourself up to it (As Statesman and Recluse did). This gives you great power very quickly, but leaves you connected to The Well, being able to be influenced or controlled by it.
Indirect is the method our characters are using, its much slower but by absorbing small bits of power gradually over time, you never have a direct link to The Well and so avoid the control issue.
The Well is consicous, but most of the time directionless, giving power to those who are strong enough to claim it. But recently something 9we don't know what) has happened to cause The Well to have a direction. It wants a champion (possibly to defend itself against The Coming Storm ) and has chosen Cole, giving him huge amounts of power. I believ the current plan (as decided by Prometheus and Ouro) is to defeat Cole, showing The Well it made the wrong choice and hopefully... um... shocking it back to sanity? I'm not too clear on that bit.
Anyhow, thats what I got from reading the text.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Your hero's first introduction to the Well involves said entity possessing Statesman and rendering him into a helpless sock puppet for the purposes of conversation. I don't know about anybody else, but that right there is a good enough reason for most of my chars to avoid touching it with a ten-foot pole.
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Originally Posted by Venture
This point in particular is the deal breaker. It is made perfectly clear that the Well is offering a classic Faustian bargain. No sane, ethical being would have anything to do with the Well once this revelation is made
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/DoctorMcCoy
Troy Hickman could cure this if they would JUST LET HIM OPERATE!!
/DoctorMcCoy
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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Originally Posted by Melancton
I do not see how one could come to another conclusion, given the lore and the common English understanding of "Incarnate."
1) Statesman has been held out as "The Incarnate of Zeus" ALL ALONG, lightning bolts and all, not "The Incarnate of the Well" or some other generalized concept. Zeus was specified. The Well now is "incarnating" others, but there are no gods involved? |
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Originally Posted by Melancton
SOMEBODY is getting "put into human flesh" when you become an Incarnate, and it is not the same deal as a Kheldian. If the Devs did not mean what "incarnate" means, they should have called it something different. As it stands, it is the equivalent of using the word "diseased" and insisting it means "happy" or something. Put another way, the parrot is DEAD, he is NOT "pining for the fjords!"
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Your hero's first introduction to the Well involves said entity possessing Statesman and rendering him into a helpless sock puppet for the purposes of conversation. I don't know about anybody else, but that right there is a good enough reason for most of my chars to avoid touching it with a ten-foot pole.
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However, that being the case, I really don't expect the Dev's to pull a 'bait and switch' with us, having Hami-O's count against us when dealing with the DE here or in Praetoria, or allowing the Well to do something terrible to us because we are gaining its power (well maybe as part of a short storyline, but nothing permanent). That would be a horrible thing to do to the playerbase, and an even worse business move. They're just a typical MMO ways of rewarding players that they tried to fit into the story.
But yeah...
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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This is worth its own post. I agree completely. I've LOVED everything I've read of his so far. His work does a great job of putting the human in Superhuman.|
Originally Posted by Melancton
My appeal to Doctor Hickman was that he has worked within the CoH lore and created compelling, enjoyable and dare I say it, INSPIRING fiction using the cast that he was handed. With some subtle changes in emphasis, Troy had Statesman, usually depicted as a ham-handed dictator, cast in a favorable and even sympathetic light.
Dr. Hickman is amazing, and he could cure the Well/Incarnate business, sick as it currently is. I wish the Devs would make it so and bring him on board again. And pay him lavishly to save this. But I suppose that while I am wishing, I ought to toss world peace in there, too... |
I really think if they hired him, gave him THE BOOK of City of ***, let him read it, then let him go nuts with the lore and story... I think he'd do an awesome job with it. Pants or no.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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The Well currently chooses Tyrant as its champion and defender because it believes him to best represent its own interests. Usually, that's just power, but right now, it's also unification by any means to stand against a great threat; in Tyrant's case, it's Hamidon and, to some extent, human nature itself; in The Well's case, it's the Coming Storm.|
Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
The Well is consicous, but most of the time directionless, giving power to those who are strong enough to claim it. But recently something 9we don't know what) has happened to cause The Well to have a direction. It wants a champion (possibly to defend itself against The Coming Storm ) and has chosen Cole, giving him huge amounts of power. I believ the current plan (as decided by Prometheus and Ouro) is to defeat Cole, showing The Well it made the wrong choice and hopefully... um... shocking it back to sanity? I'm not too clear on that bit.
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According to Prometheus, Tyrant is really just a chump compared to whatever the Coming Storm will bring. The current objective of the supers of Primal Earth is to strike down Tyrant, lowering his status in the eyes of The Well, and hopefully encouraging it to choose a new champion. The objective after that is to defeat all of The Well's successive choices until it finally gets the picture and chooses the defenders of Primal Earth as its champions; we have to look after our own interests, after all.
Only when The Well relents and gives us full access to its power without forming a direct link with it will we actually have the power we need to fight the Coming Storm.
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Yeah, that sounds about right. Thanks
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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April 2004 |
Originally Posted by Venture
When do they intend to start?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
While I'd love to have the background detailed more. For instance, the Tsoo being Korean based (at least mostly) would be nice to get that info out there, instead of people thinking it's the Chinese Mafia.
Never had a problem with orgin of power arc. Mutants didn't come about untill 1963 (or whenever) doesn't bother me, but yeah, people want to play those 1000 year old mutants.
Of course, hasn't it always been known that powers/magic has been dead for quite awhile/non exisistent untill Statesman and Recluse came about? Not that it never existed, just that it was dormat for a very very long time.
So seeing people say "Oh, I'm a dragon and have been around active for 1000 years" has always made me go... o.O
Or other such D&D style creatures that have been walking about and living in the world. 
Now there is some content I'd rather they leave as a OOC style thing. Enhancements? Inspirations? Power Proliferation? Badges? Please...just keep those OOC.
A little better heads up on the Kheldian history would be nice too. I don't mind people using the AT for other concepts (would be nice to see a few more use them as a Kheldian themself though) like Light Based Mutant using a PB or a Dark Power Mutant using a WS (as maybe they just like those powers better, but knowing that a Kheldian is the merging of two personalities into one new one, and not I have multiple personalities or I'm still the person and can communicate with this alien inside of me type of deal (whether people choose to go with it is one thing, but a lot of people just don't know about that part of Kheldians).
As for the aging of the signature heroes, I'm not so sure that's a matter. I never got the impression Manticore (using a reference from an earlier post, I believe by Johny Butane) was THAT old, deffinently wouldn't be in his 50's, as it's only been 7 years.
But he also fails to see that their old avatars take place at the earlier time in the storylines history, so making them older wouldn't work for those arcs either.
Also, some of the signature heroes/villains age slower. BABs and Manti likely age at a normal pace, but Ms Liberty, Statesman and Recluse (for sure), and the other superpowered types could age at a much slower pace, that they wouldn't seem to have aged at all in 7 years.
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Our characters have no reason to believe this is true. The idea that "a little won't hurt" is the basic principle behind corruption.| Indirect is the method our characters are using, its much slower but by absorbing small bits of power gradually over time, you never have a direct link to The Well and so avoid the control issue. |
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| Anyhow, thats what I got from reading the text. |
Edit: Oh, and:
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| While I'd love to have the background detailed more. For instance, the Tsoo being Korean based (at least mostly) would be nice to get that info out there, instead of people thinking it's the Chinese Mafia. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Well to be fair, I expect it's suppossed to be a given. |
Originally Posted by Venture
Our characters have no reason to believe this is true. The idea that "a little won't hurt" is the basic principle behind corruption.
Which text is this? |
Saying it's not and needs to be made clearer is being nit picky, as anyone should be smart enough to know, the devs aren't going to surprise you with "HAHA! Your character is now an NPC sucker!"I mean really, come on. It should just be a given that the character knows this is true OR has done the leg work to know it to be true.
That said, I know my main wouldn't go about this path to incarnate status (not saying she couldn't gain the powers...but she wouldn't seek it out as the storyline suggests).
Luckily, the seeking it out is actually a non point now imo, as you can gain the incarnate abilities without actually seeking it out now, with the ability to open the alpha slot through a voucher or through just joining the iTrials.
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Magic and such never really died out, per se, but they were nowhere near as prominent until Cole and Richter cracked open the Well on Praxidae. Before then, the Oranbegans were still trapped in their city under the east coast, really raunchy, city-wide raves were being held in western Europe, mystical priests wandered the world, banishing evil, some wierd fish cult popped up from time to time in various parts of the world, Union soldiers were fighting mad cultists and some nutty Prussian royal fought General Sherman for kicks.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Never had a problem with orgin of power arc. Mutants didn't come about untill 1963 (or whenever) doesn't bother me, but yeah, people want to play those 1000 year old mutants.
Of course, hasn't it always been known that powers/magic has been dead for quite awhile/non exisistent untill Statesman and Recluse came about? Not that it never existed, just that it was dormat for a very very long time. So seeing people say "Oh, I'm a dragon and have been around active for 1000 years" has always made me go... o.O Or other such D&D style creatures that have been walking about and living in the world. |
Man, now you can't swing a dead catgirl around without smacking some fallen deity from another plane or a wizard who's a living conduit to the thaumaverse or something.
61866 - A Series of Unfortunate Kidnappings - More than a coincidence?
2260 - The Burning of Hearts - A green-eyed monster holds the match.
379248 - The Spider Without Fangs - NEW - Some lessons learned (more or less.)
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True. But even then it was still rather hush-hush, stories thought to be myth, or just little dark secrets people kept hidden.
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Originally Posted by TheDeepBlue
Magic and such never really died out, per se, but they were nowhere near as prominent until Cole and Richter cracked open the Well on Praxidae. Before then, the Oranbegans were still trapped in their city under the east coast, really raunchy, city-wide raves were being held in western Europe, mystical priests wandered the world, banishing evil, some wierd fish cult popped up from time to time in various parts of the world, Union soldiers were fighting mad cultists and some nutty Prussian royal fought General Sherman for kicks.
Man, now you can't swing a dead catgirl around without smacking some fallen deity from another plane or a wizard who's a living conduit to the thaumaverse or something. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Isn't Nemesis more of a Tech Origin since he's largely steampunk?
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Originally Posted by TheDeepBlue
Magic and such never really died out, per se, but they were nowhere near as prominent until Cole and Richter cracked open the Well on Praxidae. Before then, the Oranbegans were still trapped in their city under the east coast, really raunchy, city-wide raves were being held in western Europe, mystical priests wandered the world, banishing evil, some wierd fish cult popped up from time to time in various parts of the world, Union soldiers were fighting mad cultists and some nutty Prussian royal fought General Sherman for kicks.
Man, now you can't swing a dead catgirl around without smacking some fallen deity from another plane or a wizard who's a living conduit to the thaumaverse or something. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"