Is the currently published back story adequate?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-07-14 15:07 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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It's bad writing. Good writing would not have tried to shoehorn every character in the game into a one-size-fits-none pseudo-explanation. This is the kind of thing I used to see in late 1970's GMing.
Well to be fair, I expect it's suppossed to be a given.  Saying it's not and needs to be made clearer is being nit picky, as anyone should be smart enough to know, the devs aren't going to surprise you with "HAHA! Your character is now an NPC sucker!"I mean really, come on. It should just be a given that the character knows this is true OR has done the leg work to know it to be true. |
It is literally the case that no explanation at all would have been better than the one we were given.
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| Luckily, the seeking it out is actually a non point now imo, as you can gain the incarnate abilities without actually seeking it out now, with the ability to open the alpha slot through a voucher or through just joining the iTrials. |
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Their writing is based on there not being 5000 thousand players either.|
Originally Posted by Venture
It's bad writing. Good writing would not have tried to shoehorn every character in the game into a one-size-fits-none pseudo-explanation. This is the kind of thing I used to see in late 1970's GMing.
It is literally the case that no explanation at all would have been better than the one we were given. As previously noted, this is just sticking your fingers in your ears and humming real loud, or as I've said in the past, treating all text in the game as "click here to fight mobs". |
Things like the TFs are perfect examples of this. One team of 8 would of fought Hero One once...not 100 different teams all at once.
So in their writing, in the paragon universe, the writing can say "this is how it is" obviously people don't care for it. But then those same people create other concepts that really don't fit in with the established storyline to begin with.
Let's take some storylines that work...the praetorian storylines...they all lead the player into realizing that, yes in fact, Cole needs to be stopped. Yet there are still people saying, no my character would work with Tyrant, even though it's obvious Tyrant really wouldn't work with them for one reason or another, and Tyrant REALLY doesn't consider any of the player characters equals.
Did I agree with how the incarnates were handled? Naaa. I would of prefered the "increase in power through whatever means works for the character" as just a OH YAY NEW POWER type of deal, than tying it to the storyline of "hero goes and actively searches it out"...
Was it a bad idea to do it that way? Probably. Did I ignore it? Yes. I recall it being more that way untill people complained about there being no storyline for it. I can be remembering it wrong, but I recall in beta everyone saying "I want a storyline made by the devs for these abilities, and not have to figure out my own for my own character"
You mgiht say the other ways of gaining the abilities are just putting your fingers in your ears and ignoring the storyline, I think it's more of a way to cater to those who would rather have another explanation for gaining these abilities outside of "I'm actively seeking to become more powerful/an incarnate"
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Actually, the Powers Loyalist arc leads to no such realization. In fact, if you choose Loyalist in that final morality choice, you actually rat out Praetor Berry to Emperor Cole and you have a nice little chat with him where he's grateful for your loyalty and Neuron will be dealt with, blah blah blah.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Let's take some storylines that work...the praetorian storylines...they all lead the player into realizing that, yes in fact, Cole needs to be stopped. Yet there are still people saying, no my character would work with Tyrant, even though it's obvious Tyrant really wouldn't work with them for one reason or another, and Tyrant REALLY doesn't consider any of the player characters equals.
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Except that you DO reject it. (or rather, before you even get the chance to reject it the Letter Writer makes sure that you're in no position to accept it anyway)
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Originally Posted by Venture
This point in particular is the deal breaker. It is made perfectly clear that the Well is offering a classic Faustian bargain. No sane, ethical being would have anything to do with the Well once this revelation is made, except perhaps to try to destroy it if that were possible, even at the expense of destroying all superhumans or removing all superpowers.
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"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Originally Posted by Venture
It's bad writing. Good writing would not have tried to shoehorn every character in the game into a one-size-fits-none pseudo-explanation. This is the kind of thing I used to see in late 1970's GMing.
It is literally the case that no explanation at all would have been better than the one we were given. |
Honestly, the "there's one kind of fundamental force underlying everything else in the universe" is kind of a common theme. Not just in comics, but in real-life as well. (Not to mention that the "all origins are ultimately different manifestations of the same thing" DOES rather neatly explain why everyone's abilities are mechanically identical)
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Well, I was just trying to include stuff that existed before the Praxidae incident.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
Isn't Nemesis more of a Tech Origin since he's largely steampunk?
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Throw Lady Grey in there, too.
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Yeah, but the text still has you thinking to stop it, just in a different way. And Cole still sends you off to get youout of the way.
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Originally Posted by Scythus
Actually, the Powers Loyalist arc leads to no such realization. In fact, if you choose Loyalist in that final morality choice, you actually rat out Praetor Berry to Emperor Cole and you have a nice little chat with him where he's grateful for your loyalty and Neuron will be dealt with, blah blah blah.
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Actually, I read "the BOOK" when I did the comic book arc, or enough of it to know my Hickman from a hole in the ground.|
Originally Posted by Lycantropus
This is worth its own post. I agree completely. I've LOVED everything I've read of his so far. His work does a great job of putting the human in Superhuman.
I really think if they hired him, gave him THE BOOK of City of ***, let him read it, then let him go nuts with the lore and story... I think he'd do an awesome job with it. Pants or no. |
With this stuff, if I find I don't like it, I just tell myself it's something else. It's easier for me because in recent times I've tended to solo, so NPCs can say whatever they want, but if I want to say I'm getting a boost in powers because I was groped by a cosmic powered TSA agent at O'Hare, I'll do so and no one can tell me otherwise. In a similar manner, when my only level 50, Nitewolf, uses his superspeed to zoom around town, I tell myself it's his motorcycle, since he's a "normal."
Now if I could just tell myself I'm thin and handsome...
Troy Hickman - So proud to have contributed to and played in this wonderful CoH universe
I think the biggest issues with incarnates is that they're sort of, forced as another put it.
But honestly, it makes little sense when you actually start thinking about it anyway. So, there's the well of furies, found on "primal" earth... ok, why is it only found in ONE particular location in one particular world? Why does it still work on other worlds?
I know we don't know much about how the various dimension work, but I'd think that you'd need to have a "Well of Furies" in every dimension to trigger the Statesman's transformation. I don't think Reichsman was just kinda standing at a bus stop when all of a sudden "JAWHOL! Eich Bin Ein POWER!"
And if it is an extra-dimensional force, why did it decide to attach itself to every Marcus Cole and Lord Recluse(... wait, that's the guy who triggered the fall of Star League in Battletech isn't it?) after only one of that particular entity released the Well? Does this mean that every version of my incarnates now has the same incarnate powers?
Admittedly I haven't looked to much into Incarnates to deeply, and am mostly running on what I've seen in this thread, but it seems like the entire system breaks down as lore comes in contact with it.
as to backstory in general, it'd probably be a good idea to set up something in the Universities that has research on the various villain groups all laid out for people to easily read + access (say it's for college dissertations on superheroes... only reason I can see to go to Paragon City in the first place)
By the catapillars hooka you WILL smile!
The well isn't found just on Primal Earth. The fact that it's interacting with Praetoria kindof josses the idea that it's restricted to Primal.
Most probably it's something that is outside or "between" universes, but manifests at specifi points and times to specific individuals. Richter & Cole are both likely candidates (depending on universe anyway, Emperor Cole and Statesman are still relatively close analogues, so it makes sense they'd have similar powers since they gained them in similar situations.
There's probably a billion universes in which Cole never got powers, or ot them a different way, or never existed.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Well, my point was that for the most part, States (and Recluse to a degree) are treated like Superman of DC. In that he's ALWAYS there with his powers... he just may be a nazi, or a control freak, or mad, or whatever, but he's always in existence as something similar to statesman.|
Originally Posted by Arilou
The well isn't found just on Primal Earth. The fact that it's interacting with Praetoria kindof josses the idea that it's restricted to Primal.
Most probably it's something that is outside or "between" universes, but manifests at specifi points and times to specific individuals. Richter & Cole are both likely candidates (depending on universe anyway, Emperor Cole and Statesman are still relatively close analogues, so it makes sense they'd have similar powers since they gained them in similar situations. There's probably a billion universes in which Cole never got powers, or ot them a different way, or never existed. |
And the actual physical well of furies was found on Primal earth.
By the catapillars hooka you WILL smile!
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Which is pretty much what the Incarnate lore requires. But I would rather actually HAVE the Saint Crispin's Day speech rather than pretend that is what the King is saying as opposed to the "Dudes, let's go kick 'em in the jimmies!!" that appears onscreen, if you follow my drift.|
Originally Posted by TroyHickman
Actually, I read "the BOOK" when I did the comic book arc, or enough of it to know my Hickman from a hole in the ground.
With this stuff, if I find I don't like it, I just tell myself it's something else. |
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| It's easier for me because in recent times I've tended to solo, so NPCs can say whatever they want, but if I want to say I'm getting a boost in powers because I was groped by a cosmic powered TSA agent at O'Hare, I'll do so and no one can tell me otherwise. In a similar manner, when my only level 50, Nitewolf, uses his superspeed to zoom around town, I tell myself it's his motorcycle, since he's a "normal." |
Bless your heart, you seem to be able to create entertaining stories that cause emotional reactions with an economy of prose and space. A lot of us figure you could have worked out a storyline that advances the narrative and explains the new powers without triggering the barf emote. Now I realize that sounds like the bar is set pretty low, but given as so many people are gagging on the Incarnate lore, it is not as easy as one might think, so we would need the Derek Flint of comic scripters.
Alas, I realize that it is unlikely to happen again, but it DID happen once before, and man would it be great if lightning could strike again.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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It could be seen as being sent out to scout out Primal Earth for the coming invasion, since if you choose to go villain side, you're leaving Praetoria on actually rather good terms.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Yeah, but the text still has you thinking to stop it, just in a different way. And Cole still sends you off to get youout of the way.
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THe physical Well is (as mentioned by Ramiel, only an extension of the metaphysical Well. And there are almost certainly other physical wells in other universes (Praetoria almost certainly)|
Originally Posted by Calaxprimal
Well, my point was that for the most part, States (and Recluse to a degree) are treated like Superman of DC. In that he's ALWAYS there with his powers... he just may be a nazi, or a control freak, or mad, or whatever, but he's always in existence as something similar to statesman.
And the actual physical well of furies was found on Primal earth. |
And he actually seems to be lacking in a lot of universes (COT-verse, for instance)
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
Every time I hear the name Marcus Cole I keep thinking of this guy
Help Dirk Knightly the freelance detective solve a case in Arc ID:368097
My primary concern at this juncture is that the incoming masses of new players should not have to guess about the backstory of the game. The comics, for instance ought to be featured front and center so that new players read those and say "Yeah, War Witch! I know her!" and "Yeah, Statesman, he's the Superman of this world" instead of "Who is this dude with the star on his chest and why do I care?"
A great deal of the original design of City of Heroes was inspired by the desire to attract the players who were accustomed to the gameplay of a Certain Fantasy Game that was the 500 pound gorilla of its time. One of the early tenets of CFG (they got better, later) was that they chose to regulate what information the players received. For instance, and this is completely true - When they introduced new spells into the game, they did NOT tell the players what those spells were supposed to do, or they described them in the vaguest possible way.
This led to a situation very much like the following hypothetical situation:
Arcanaville: This new Double Gun Fu powerset doesn't act quite like I expected.
Guinea Pig: Yes, if only there was a way to measure it's effect.
Arcanaville: *walks ten feet away and pulls out giant double gun fu Pistols of Doom* How many hit points do you have, again?
Guinea Pig: Uh, 865. Why? And why are you pointing those things at me?
Arcanaville: Just hold still. This won't hurt. Much.
No joke, that's what the players were really forced to do in order to figure out how the spells functioned. If you wanted to learn the details about the game, you didn't bother visiting the website of the game publisher. You visited the well-known fan sites associated with the game in general and with the "archetype" or activity in specific that you were interested in because that was the only way to learn what was really what.
I sometimes feel that the devs of CoH adopted that "less is more" philosophy about the game lore when they also adopted the design philosophy of CFG that led to things like hazard zones and street sweeping being deliberately more rewarding than missions. (Yes, in the very beginning missions had intentionally sub-par rewards because "quests" were supposed to be for flavor, just like CFG, and killing lots of bad guys out in the world was "riskier" and therefore should be more rewarding. Fire tanks, perching blasters, and dumpster herding helped put the kibosh on that "riskier" misconception.)
We're going on eight years past the original version of this game now, and even CFG long ago gave up the conceit that "less is more". Our game gave up the "less is more" philosophy about powers effects quite a while ago. I think it's time that the devs/marketing of City of Heroes likewise got over the "less is more" philosophy about the game lore.
At the very least, IMO, we should be able to use the Midnight Club "click on things for clues" mechanic to find history books in the university libraries that expand on various aspects of the city's history; even if those just mostly duplicate the existing website backgrounders.
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Alternatively, and it may not happen anytime soon, but there really should be a web of contacts in game who just spill exposition for new players on various NPCs and organizations. Make it clear up front these guys aren't offering missions, and those who care about the lore will seek them out.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
At the very least, IMO, we should be able to use the Midnight Club "click on things for clues" mechanic to find history books in the university libraries that expand on various aspects of the city's history; even if those just mostly duplicate the existing website backgrounders.
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If there was ever a need for Atlas Park to get a museum, this would be it.
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It seems that the thought was that the badges would piece together a lot of the history. I for one read the online history of Paragon City on the official site... then wondered why the noble and inspirational Statesman described there was portrayed in the Official Comic as a high-handed jackwagon with the social skills of an ax handle (except in the terrific "Smoke and Mirrors" arc by Troy Hickman.)|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Alternatively, and it may not happen anytime soon, but there really should be a web of contacts in game who just spill exposition for new players on various NPCs and organizations. Make it clear up front these guys aren't offering missions, and those who care about the lore will seek them out.
If there was ever a need for Atlas Park to get a museum, this would be it . |
The game and its history has grown greatly more complex. A unified source for the lore would be helpful, and a museum is a fine idea. Unfortunately, any effort devoted there would have to be drawn from something else we would like.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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There's the difference between the face someone shows the public, and the face someone shows to their co-workers/subordinates.|
Originally Posted by Melancton
It seems that the thought was that the badges would piece together a lot of the history. I for one read the online history of Paragon City on the official site... then wondered why the noble and inspirational Statesman described there was portrayed in the Official Comic as a high-handed jackwagon with the social skills of an ax handle (except in the terrific "Smoke and Mirrors" arc by Troy Hickman.)
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In Statesman-the-character's defense, most of the jerkiness he demonstrated in the comic was directed at Manticore, who delighted in pushing his buttons and butting heads. Manticore of the comic is the classic Lancer character archetype, and the book is mostly from his point of view.
Most of Statesman's jerk scenes, when he's not confronting a bad guy, are of him interacting with Manticore, or being overprotective of his granddaughter, which is understandable really. He's certainly not a jerk when he's paired of with Sister Psyche. He's really chummy with Foreshadow. Besides Manticore, most of the people he works with seem to like him enough.
It really comes down to this:
-He's in a position of leadership above Manticore, who's the team loose cannon and is constantly being challenged by him.
-He's over 100 years old, and has seen a lot of friends and loved ones die. Especially, given the fact that super heroes usually don't have peaceful endings. Keeping people he has to work with at a distance with a hard exterior is a sanity survival mechanism.
-Nowhere in the game is he anything more than the totally professional, premier hero of the city. He doesn't talk down to players any more than any other NPC. He doesn't DO much of anything, so how can he possibly BE a jerk?
-Besides the comic, we have other writers' interpretations of him. The Web of Arachnos novel presents a young, dashing rogue Statesman who's the prototypical 1930's mystery man with a shady past. He was most defiantly not written as a jerk, but as a suave leader with crafty street smarts. The Freedom Phalanx presents a Statesman in mourning for his wife who's growing disillusioned with the good fight, partially due to mental manipulation and mid-1980's bleakness. This, unfortunately, may be the Statesman the comic creators decided to run with, which is sad because it ignores the character development he got by the end of the book.
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I remember reading in an ancient game-informer that one of the devs had stated that they didn't think the players wanted to go into the minutiae of the powers, or into the gear systems, so instead they made it so very simplistic and visual that we have now. The same dev went ahead and said that once the game was released along side the current 500 lb gorilla of a game, it turned out the players reveled in the math of the entire thing.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
A great deal of the original design of City of Heroes was inspired by the desire to attract the players who were accustomed to the gameplay of a Certain Fantasy Game that was the 500 pound gorilla of its time. One of the early tenets of CFG (they got better, later) was that they chose to regulate what information the players received. For instance, and this is completely true - When they introduced new spells into the game, they did NOT tell the players what those spells were supposed to do, or they described them in the vaguest possible way.
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IIRC the entire article was comparing the extremely minimalistic in terms of stats style of COH to the emphasis on stats and math and mechanics that is found in Ze Otha game.
I do think one thing that may help players in general would be to have states and the others be more active players early on in the game. Maybe at the end of a story arc right before the posi task force, Positron comes in and helps you out, then tells you to come visit him for a very unique task or whatever.
Still, the game needs to put in the university/museum/newspaper to explain everything
By the catapillars hooka you WILL smile!
Let's face it - Troy's issues 4-6 aside, the second volume of the comics became "The Manticore and Friends Show". That by itself was responsible for a lot of the characterization of Statesman as something he really was never originally intended to be.
That's my only reservation about promoting the comics - New players reading them would conclude that Manticore is the signature hero of the game.
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I hope when we finally get fingers we get an explanation for them suddenly being there!
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Our villains were maxed out at level 40 for months. We did not get an explanation for why we could suddenly gain more levels beyond that. For years, there was one guy in Paragon City who used a shield. We did not get an explanation for why suddenly you couldn't swing a dead catgirl without hitting a Captain America rip-off.
We did get an explanation for why Corruptors could suddenly use bows and Scrappers could set themselves on fire. It was terrible and unnecessary. We also got an explanation for why we could create our own missions. If you use AE and accept its backstory, your character is an idiot. Don't get me started on Ouroboros. We also got a story arc dealing with the emergency mediport system. It has plot holes you could drive a Kronos titan through. On the other hand, we don't get an explanation for what influence is, or what enhancements are, or how the heck Valkyrie, a tech-origin Scrapper, can train your magic origin Defender. Does the lack of a story explanation for these gameplay elements diminish your enjoyment of the game in any way? I certainly haven't seen numerous threads on these subjects, so I'm guessing no. |
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Long, long ago (like, 2004-2005, before Inventions and likely before CoV), when CoH was back at Cryptic, I recall a dev (I don't remember who) hinting at adding some kind of consequence to slotting lots of Hami-Os in some future development. The wording was something like, "do you think you can keep shoving pieces of Hamidon into your body without some kind of repercussions?" I'm glad they didn't (not that it would matter much now).|
Originally Posted by Lycantropus
However, that being the case, I really don't expect the Dev's to pull a 'bait and switch' with us, having Hami-O's count against us when dealing with the DE here or in Praetoria, or allowing the Well to do something terrible to us because we are gaining its power (well maybe as part of a short storyline, but nothing permanent). That would be a horrible thing to do to the playerbase, and an even worse business move. They're just a typical MMO ways of rewarding players that they tried to fit into the story.
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Does anyone else remember that?
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Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
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It was Positron. He was mainly teasing, I guess, but I've always wished that there WAS some kind of repercussion, if only as story arc material.
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Originally Posted by Liquid
Long, long ago (like, 2004-2005, before Inventions and likely before CoV), when CoH was back at Cryptic, I recall a dev (I don't remember who) hinting at adding some kind of consequence to slotting lots of Hami-Os in some future development. The wording was something like, "do you think you can keep shoving pieces of Hamidon into your body without some kind of repercussions?" I'm glad they didn't (not that it would matter much now).
Does anyone else remember that? |
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