New Power! No Points!
By
catwhowalksbyhimself,
Posted on: 2011-07-14 10:47 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
i highly doubt that they will make VIPs pay for this kind of stuff, booster related stuff, yes, but powersets no, we are getting time manip for free being VIPs, so i doubt we would get different treatment for another powerset
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I think you should reconsider that |
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
i highly doubt that they will make VIPs pay for this kind of stuff, booster related stuff, yes, but powersets no, we are getting time manip for free being VIPs, so i doubt we would get different treatment for another powerset
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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And what's wrong with creating an exclusive server for those that do not want to play or interact with free/premuim players? Being on the exclusive doesn't grant VIPs any special bonuses to the game, it's going to be the same game that's on the other servers. |
Originally Posted by Lycantropus
Thanks for linking that video! I really liked it, and it put a voice to my misgivings with the 'exclusive' server
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The reason why it was created is because F2P games can draw people who's sole purpose is to grief and harass legitiment players with no actual desire to play the game. Since it's free to play, there really is no consequence for their actions, none. The VIP exclusive server is something that subscribed players can retreat to if they find their interactions with free players to be a constant negative experience.
Paragon Unleashed Forums
Twitter: @Alpha_Ryvius
Another viewpoint on the Microtransaction debate.
Interesting...I will say Lord Kat is actually, rather than debating points, more debating semantics. For example what is the difference between Microtransactions and DLC? He uses the various companies definition of a Microtransaction...fine but considering that when most people use the term Microtransaction...they don't mean that, I mean, come on Lord Kat, you probably know better than to do the whole semantics thing (though I personally doubt he's going to be reading this ever...but you get my jist).
Now my own personal opinion, Microtransactions are strictly the area of MMOs and a certain number one hat themed war simulator, while yes, technically anything could be considered a Microtransaction but most things tend to be Downloadable content in my eyes.
Map packs are DLC, Character packs are DLC (a game I recently begun play has released numerous character packs for their solo/multiplayer 'fight the horde' style game...they provide no effect beyond making your character not one of the default). Anything like that to me is downloadable content since I have to, you know, download the actual item and once I've downloaded it, the item stays with me forever as does the game itself until I delete it off the hard drive.
Microtransaction on the other hand are not exclusive to my computer, if my account prior to Freedom goes 'pompf!' because I stop subscribing I can nolonger access not only the game but the stuff bought within the game store.
The Hat based war simulator is interesting because if I want to play the game, I have to have the service that the game is downloaded through running but by the fact I've logged in to the service (which requires no subscription fee) then everything I've got for said game is unlocked, it's kind of a strange mix between DLC and Microtransaction.
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
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Oh I understand the reasoning for creating it and the desire. I'm not even saying that it's a wrong move or bad thing to do, just that I have misgivings about it. |
Originally Posted by Unknown_User
And what's wrong with creating an exclusive server for those that do not want to play or interact with free/premuim players? Being on the exclusive doesn't grant VIPs any special bonuses to the game, it's going to be the same game that's on the other servers.
The reason why it was created is because F2P games can draw people who's sole purpose is to grief and harass legitiment players with no actual desire to play the game. Since it's free to play, there really is no consequence for their actions, none. The VIP exclusive server is something that subscribed players can retreat to if they find their interactions with free players to be a constant negative experience. |
It's just that in a game that should encourage the social aspects giving the paying base an excuse to avoid being around potentially cool and friendly players, leaving them with the aforementioned griefers, just because they can't afford a subscription gives me pause. It's been discussed before; how the VIP server will affect existing server communities, and further in, what long-term affects may occur. I'm far from being alarmist and saying it's terrible, just that I have concerns, like many others.
I'm not really one to talk though, I'm prone to lurking and soloing when I'm not with my little team of SG mates so little of this will have a major effect on me either way...
However, I don't plan on making the VIP server my new home either. I like Champion and its denizens, even though probably most of them are only vaguely aware I even exist.
I'm more concerned about high level content being exclusive only to paying players- I could see f2p and premium getting reduced rewards (even just threads at the end of a trial vs the chance at an actual component, and no Emp merits, etc) but leaving them out entirely from the system that benefits the most from the most people participating seems a little backward.
Anyway, this is a huge derail from the OP. Time I brought it back on track.
The most relevant point to this topic based on the video Sam posted the link to, is DON'T SELL POWER, and I agree with that. Ninja/Beast run, even the Sands/Axe Staff/Wand powers (though they should be the extremely rare outlier in my opinion) are okay as far as I'm concerned. They're just one thing, and useful enough to make them attractive. Selling powersets, on the other hand... I'm very uneasy about.
I'm a huge fan of this game, and am inclined to spend money to support it. If they sell them, I'll probably buy them all. It's not a matter of the money, it's the precedent. Haves and have-nots of shiny, pretty, stuff. Not so big a deal. Brokering powersets into the haves and have-nots... not as cool, and I can see that being a big point of contention and hard feelings, which won't engender goodwill between the game and its playerbase in the long run.
The saving grace here, would be of course if there were other ways to access the powerset without paying, even if it meant just being patient. Paying for the priviledge to have the powerset 6 months before everyone else. Fine. Getting it with some sort of stupid ammount of earnable merit rewards in game. Also fine.
Thank goodness I've gotten into the habit of copying my text before hitting preview post...
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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I wonder how the Incarnate powers and system will fit into this. It's already been stated by the CoH team that Incarnate powers will be VIP only, unfortunately Free and Premium players will not have access to the Incarnate system. So would this be a lure for Free players to become VIP or is it just one more thing to drive a wedge between Subscribers and Free players?
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Originally Posted by Lycantropus
The most relevant point to this topic based on the video Sam posted the link to, is DON'T SELL POWER... |
Paragon Unleashed Forums
Twitter: @Alpha_Ryvius
I don't think it should be an issue. Given the context, the "don't sell power" argument seems to refer more to shortcuts, rather than earned rewards. Thus, while Freems would not be able to attain incarnate abilities, Vreems will still need to work their way into them. Thus the difference still seems to focus on gating content, rather than power.
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It is a bit more nuanced than that. i dont think he is saying that no power increases or systems should come in the form of subscription advantages or box sale benefits. rather that you dont sell (as i saw in a bunch of korean freemos i played) additional permanant bonuses on weapons or items that make a real and insurmountable power differential between players who buy from the cash shop and those who just get the rewards theyc an from playing the game. i beleive the term is pay to win, among internet wags.|
Originally Posted by Unknown_User
I wonder how the Incarnate powers and system will fit into this. It's already been stated by the CoH team that Incarnate powers will be VIP only, unfortunately Free and Premium players will not have access to the Incarnate system. So would this be a lure for Free players to become VIP or is it just one more thing to drive a wedge between Subscribers and Free players?
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anyhow, glad to see ec getting love here, its a great show, i never miss it . my only complaint, and they show it a bit here is they are sometimes optimistic to the point of being naive. he does completely ignore the problem of nonstructive gamers who go to f2p games just to disrupt and grief. I dont believe in entirely separating the populations, but one thing i learned back with phantasy star online was that there really exists that subculture and some mitigating steps are required to prevent them from being able to ruin too many people's fun. also great he used a coh shot for community. yeah it was just a crowd shot, but still, it got us visable.
(oh and it bugs me... they call it a raptor...i know some raptors had some feathers, but that is clearly an archaeophetrix.)
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Like I said, since it's 45+ level to content, I doubt it'll play in day-to-day play for most f2p members until much later. However, with the Incarnate system to tied exclusively to Trials currently, I find it weird that eliminating anyone from content that benefits from the most people being involved in it seems toxic to the system it was built to embrace.|
Originally Posted by Unknown_User
I wonder how the Incarnate powers and system will fit into this. It's already been stated by the CoH team that Incarnate powers will be VIP only, unfortunately Free and Premium players will not have access to the Incarnate system. So would this be a lure for Free players to become VIP or is it just one more thing to drive a wedge between Subscribers and Free players?
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Even if a F2P member never was allowed the option to chose from a common to very rare table (only getting the threads option at the end of a trial) and had to build from threads and what they could cobble from inf and parts they combined... even if they were disallowed Emperian Merits and would miss out on the costume change emotes and Aura Ascendant pieces, they could, at a snail's pace, get the Incarnate powers they wanted, which would be so much simpler for the paying player... well... wouldn't that mean more players in the Incarnate trials day in and out? All at the same time encouraging a F2P member who will go that far to just give in and subscribe all the more reason to... especially seeing what they can get?
Making power options available in-game, even at prohibitive costs, would keep the ill-will away from the paying consumer and elimiate the "us vs. them" mentality that could, in time, be toxic to the game.
The same applies to powerset options, or anything else in game. What is pay to play should be more convenient than earn to play, but eliminating the option can have a negative effect on the experience at large... and I won't even touch on the PvP ramifications, which I have a firm belief will be a draw for a number of the F2P contenders.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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I don't think that DON'T SELL POWER refers to things like classes or powersets. You can complete the game in just as much, or more, ease and comfort as a scrapper or brute of any stripe. If you don't have Titanic Weapons available to you, it in no way shifts the balance of power. Having TM won't help you beat the game, or other players. |
Originally Posted by Lycantropus
I'm more concerned about high level content being exclusive only to paying players- I could see f2p and premium getting reduced rewards (even just threads at the end of a trial vs the chance at an actual component, and no Emp merits, etc) but leaving them out entirely from the system that benefits the most from the most people participating seems a little backward.
The most relevant point to this topic based on the video Sam posted the link to, is DON'T SELL POWER, and I agree with that. Ninja/Beast run, even the Sands/Axe Staff/Wand powers (though they should be the extremely rare outlier in my opinion) are okay as far as I'm concerned. They're just one thing, and useful enough to make them attractive. Selling powersets, on the other hand... I'm very uneasy about. |
I think what they're talking about is something that I've seen in the game about Singular Jewelry - which I bought a lifetime for, so I'm still there occasionally, mostly PvPing. There are potions, power boosts, speed boost, damage boosts, etc in their store. Only one side in PvP has access to the store - the other side does not. Therefore, the things they are selling in the store DRASTICALLY change the balance of PvP in that game, because they are literally selling power over other players in the store.
Powersets in CoX would only be equivalent if they were locking up the really powerful, easy-to-solo sets - say, Scrappers and Brutes - and only allowing free players to run on Defenders and Blasters (yes, I know Defenders are godly powerful,but low levels without defenses or attack slotting are very hard and you are very squishy if you don't know what you're doing!) Locking up specific powersets should be fine as long as those powersets are not arguably more powerful than what's already available.
Also, I want to say I've been a paying customer for 7 years and, aside from unlocking my alpha slot, I take no part whatsoever in the Incarnate content. I hate the implementation and have no interest in raiding in this game, so I don't. And yet, I find plenty of fun and interesting things to occupy my time, as I have for the years previous. I don't think locking people out of the Incarnate system is really a big deal.
If they charge VIP members for these new powersets... Members that are ALREADY paying a regular monthly sub and probably have been for years, I doubt they'll stay VIP members for long.
I know I sure as hell won't. Booster packs are enough, but paying extra for powerset when I'm already paying? Get stuffed!
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Okay that's really busted. My experience in the MMO world is limited, this and a non-sub one I play from time to time when I want my sword-n-sorcery fix. Yeah, that kind of stuff should be right out.|
Originally Posted by Feycat
I don't think that DON'T SELL POWER refers to things like classes or powersets. You can complete the game in just as much, or more, ease and comfort as a scrapper or brute of any stripe. If you don't have Titanic Weapons available to you, it in no way shifts the balance of power. Having TM won't help you beat the game, or other players.
I think what they're talking about is something that I've seen in the game about Singular Jewelry - which I bought a lifetime for, so I'm still there occasionally, mostly PvPing. There are potions, power boosts, speed boost, damage boosts, etc in their store. Only one side in PvP has access to the store - the other side does not. Therefore, the things they are selling in the store DRASTICALLY change the balance of PvP in that game, because they are literally selling power over other players in the store. |
Powersets, in that case, are not the same thing but I still would suggest caution. There's heavy levels of venom on these boards over much more benign things than gating powersets behind some form of payment, is all I'm saying.
I think we're going to hit a lot of 'growing pains' for a while after Freedom launches from things like this. However, I also think this game is awesome and will survive it. I also think the Dev's care for this game very much, though I also sometimes think they get so exited about something that they overlook some of the pitfalls that could be avoided in the process.
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Originally Posted by Feycat
Also, I want to say I've been a paying customer for 7 years and, aside from unlocking my alpha slot, I take no part whatsoever in the Incarnate content. I hate the implementation and have no interest in raiding in this game, so I don't. And yet, I find plenty of fun and interesting things to occupy my time, as I have for the years previous. I don't think locking people out of the Incarnate system is really a big deal.
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Heck, lock the f2p people out of Incarnate stuff entirely if you want, and let them take part in the Trials for other prizes if you must, but why keep them from being another warm body looking to help teams fill out for content that shines the brightest the more people are willing to participate in it?
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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And that pretty much sums up the ill-will and resentment I'm concerned about when it comes to selling powersets.|
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
If they charge VIP members for these new powersets... Members that are ALREADY paying a regular monthly sub and probably have been for years, I doubt they'll stay VIP members for long.
I know I sure as hell won't. Booster packs are enough, but paying extra for powerset when I'm already paying? Get stuffed! |
EDIT: However, don't forget they're giving subscribing customers 400 'Paragon Points' per month. So if the powerset costs, say, 400 or less, you can get it as soon as it comes out and technically it's "free" as part of your subscription. The distinction only lay in that you have to click a button for it instead of just having it loaded into the game waiting for you.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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Did you buy Going Rogue? If you didn't, then you are missing a couple of powersets.|
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
If they charge VIP members for these new powersets... Members that are ALREADY paying a regular monthly sub and probably have been for years, I doubt they'll stay VIP members for long.
I know I sure as hell won't. Booster packs are enough, but paying extra for powerset when I'm already paying? Get stuffed! |
More to the point, did you pre-order it so you could get early access to those powersets?
I'm not sure that I see the qualitative difference between spending $30 on Going Rogue and all of its associated content, or spending $5 to get just Dual Pistols.
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Some power sets will be free, others will be in the market |
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
If they charge VIP members for these new powersets... Members that are ALREADY paying a regular monthly sub and probably have been for years, I doubt they'll stay VIP members for long.
I know I sure as hell won't. Booster packs are enough, but paying extra for powerset when I'm already paying? Get stuffed! |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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That might be because there isn't any difference |
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Did you buy Going Rogue? If you didn't, then you are missing a couple of powersets.
More to the point, did you pre-order it so you could get early access to those powersets? I'm not sure that I see the qualitative difference between spending $30 on Going Rogue and all of its associated content, or spending $5 to get just Dual Pistols. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
So the set´ll be for sale, so what? Freedom will most likely not come within the next two or even three months (and the set even later), so you´ll have those P-points needed anyway. Which means, it´s free for us... except of course you just want to get every fracking piece on the market.
So what exactly is your problem, guys (and gals of course)? That the Freems will have to pay for it?
As far as I understand it, they´ll have to pay for quite a few powersets anyway... so it´s only logical to slap a price on the newest one too. After all, they´re meant to pay if they want the full experience.
@Redcap
ANARCHY = A Society that does not need government
114. Ahrouns do not appreciate my particular brand of humour, so I should stop bleaching bulls-eyes in their fur.
There are two possible outcomes as I see it:
1. Paid subscribers get a bulk of content free, and then can use points to pick up extras. Problem with this assumption is that if a Powerset (Titan Weapons) is in the Store, what won't be? Is nothing outside the realms of being waved at us with "Oh, but you'll need extra for this, hope you can decide what to pick!" Expect marketing heavy drives and 'sales' down this path.
2. EVERYTHING will be in the store, and the Paid subscribers can pick what they want off the menu, up to their allowance, plus whatever extra they want to spend. Problem with this assumption is that there's no way they'd do this and give the Paid subscribers enough allowance to get all the desirable stuff. Expect them to "coerce" as much money out as possible down this path.
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The observant will notice that there's not a lot of difference between those two.
Forse: lvl 22 FF/NRG Defender
Tam Krannock: lvl 37 Shield/Mace Tanker
Toppa Grace: lvl 25 Fire/Ice Blaster
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Red Commissar: I'm in the Queen Mother. Only more awesome. And alive
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Well, how about the bulk of content you mentioned?|
Originally Posted by Forse
Paid subscribers get a bulk of content free, and then can use points to pick up extras. Problem with this assumption is that if a Powerset (Titan Weapons) is in the Store, what won't be?.
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Seriously, what is it with you doomsayers that no matter what the devs announce you always treat it like the end of the friggin world?
Each month you get five bucks of content for free and you can even decide which content it is in contrast to how it´s now, where you often get power sets you´d probably never look at. Had I had the choice then it would´ve been like no Plant or Illusion controll for me but instead a few more costume pieces and s**t.
Now, is it really impossible for you to at least once be happy with the devs´ decissions? You know, instead of these constant DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM cries.
@Redcap
ANARCHY = A Society that does not need government
114. Ahrouns do not appreciate my particular brand of humour, so I should stop bleaching bulls-eyes in their fur.
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I see it like this. Every year we get a certain amount of content for free, which tends to be about the same amount most years, and a certain amount put into Booster packs. |
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
If they charge VIP members for these new powersets... Members that are ALREADY paying a regular monthly sub and probably have been for years, I doubt they'll stay VIP members for long.
I know I sure as hell won't. Booster packs are enough, but paying extra for powerset when I'm already paying? Get stuffed! |
If, including what we can buy with out free points, VIPs are still getting just as much free content as we always have been, then I'm not going to care if every powerset, or every (fill in the blank) is free. As long as I'm getting the same overall value for my money.
If they end up cranking out twice as much content as before, so I have to spend more money than ever on this game if it is all something I want, then I'll still happily take treasure baths in my mounds of new content.
On the other hand, if I have to pay more and get less free than we used to, then I'll have to cancel my subscription so I can pay people to make sure the devs never enjoy spit free take out again!
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
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Sure there's some doomcrying, but there are others, like myself, who are just expressing concern over things being handled well. History has shown us that the Dev's do care, and try and make us happy. However, it also has shown them to jump headlong into something that makes a lot of folks unhappy, but they're so far along in it they can't (or won't-probably for budget/time constraint reasons) turn back. Stating concerns and misgivings as early as possible helps mitigate that, or, at least I hope it does. It has in the past.|
Originally Posted by Nos482
Well, how about the bulk of content you mentioned?
Seriously, what is it with you doomsayers that no matter what the devs announce you always treat it like the end of the friggin world? Each month you get five bucks of content for free and you can even decide which content it is in contrast to how it´s now, where you often get power sets you´d probably never look at. Had I had the choice then it would´ve been like no Plant or Illusion controll for me but instead a few more costume pieces and s**t. Now, is it really impossible for you to at least once be happy with the devs´ decissions? You know, instead of these constant DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM cries. |
I'm happy with a lot of the decisions the Dev's make for this game, even some I didn't agree with originally but in retrospect have found to be good changes overall. However, there are quite a few that I think if they listened or if valid arguments didn't get lost in the noise to signal ratio, some things could have been handled better, or averted before they became problems.
Saying nothing, especially in the conception/first announcment stages, is the worst thing we can do. Not just for us, but for the game at large. The best thing that can happen, they listen and something that suits/benefits/profits if not everyone at least most of the playerbase is reached. Worst case, they ignore us and do what they want anyway.
So we at least try. Don't look at all of it as doomcalling, just expressing concerns.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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Or how about 3. EVERYTHING is in the store, and Premium players can buy whatever they like, but VIPs get access to a large part of it automatically as long as they're subscribed? Y'know, like Inventions are "Purchasable" for Free Players and "Included" for VIPs, or Time Manipulation is "Free for VIP players, or you can buy this from the Paragon Market"?|
Originally Posted by Forse
There are two possible outcomes as I see it:
1. Paid subscribers get a bulk of content free, and then can use points to pick up extras. Problem with this assumption is that if a Powerset (Titan Weapons) is in the Store, what won't be? Is nothing outside the realms of being waved at us with "Oh, but you'll need extra for this, hope you can decide what to pick!" Expect marketing heavy drives and 'sales' down this path. 2. EVERYTHING will be in the store, and the Paid subscribers can pick what they want off the menu, up to their allowance, plus whatever extra they want to spend. Problem with this assumption is that there's no way they'd do this and give the Paid subscribers enough allowance to get all the desirable stuff. Expect them to "coerce" as much money out as possible down this path. |
Let's now confuse "X will be available in the store" and "X will only be available if you spend Paragon Points, even if you're VIP".
Character index
As luck would have it, I just got an order for a $200 sword, which I have all the materials for and will not need to spend any money out of pocket. I think I am going to stick that money in a safe place (under the mattress, or buried in a coffee can), and spend it on market points when Freedom comes out.
So, I should have the points to get whatever I want. 
Types of Swords
My Portfolio
well you can just buy the points and use it