Ok, listen, this is starting to get to a critical mass
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-06-29 14:37 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Just commenting on the part bolded. I think this is an extreme fallacy. They don't need auras and emotes as a reason for us to keep running the trials when they have already stated that they will be expanding the slots and just did with LORE. The expansions to LORE BY THEMSELVES are enough for folks to justify going back to replay the BAF and LAMBDA and now Keyes, since Keyes gives BOTH types of iXP.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Well said.
I've been saying similar for quite a while now. Why are these things so difficult to acquire? Because the devs know damn well that if they weren't a whole lot of people would burn through everything in a week and be right back to complaining that they need more stuff to do. It is quite simply completely impossible for the developers of ANY game to deliver content as fast as that game's players can blast through it and get bored again. It just can't be done. It takes nearly a year of development to design something that we can play, master, and get burned out on in less than a month. With that kind of ratio of effort to player entertainment, the devs have no choice but to design things that we will have to linger on for a while so they have time to design the next thing. I do think gating things that a brand new level 1 character can use behind level 50 exclusive content is a little extreme, but they have to put it somewhere, and they have to give us a reason to keep running the content they've busted their butts for the past year making. |
I completely disagree that they need costume parts to keep us running the trials. In fact if not for the LORE expansion I doubt most would keep running them. I think the devs are misguided if they think costume parts will keep the critical mass needed to keep the trials running.
Expansion of the actual slots and powers of the slots WILL.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
Shivans enabled my Emp defender to solo Sister Psyche's TF. I know that's probably not too impressive to a hardcore ITF soloer, but my point is : a shivan changed my game. |
Originally Posted by Pacur
I am aware of the PVP IOs.
What you are referring to such as the nuke, and shivans, they are useful in only a very limited degree. Shivans you get a pet, and nuke is well..a nuke. Saying that the PvP rewards such as shivans and nukes (I am not talking about PvP IOs here) changed the game, I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. |
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
Quote:
If the devs want the system to linger, it would have been wiser to use time gating than repetitive grinding. It's worked for Merits, it's worked for the Alpha, but it's been the complete antithesis for the raids, which provide the greatest amount of reward to those who run the same character through them over and over and over and over again. What's more|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Because the devs know damn well that if they weren't a whole lot of people would burn through everything in a week and be right back to complaining that they need more stuff to do. It is quite simply completely impossible for the developers of ANY game to deliver content as fast as that game's players can blast through it and get bored again. It just can't be done. It takes nearly a year of development to design something that we can play, master, and get burned out on in less than a month. With that kind of ratio of effort to player entertainment, the devs have no choice but to design things that we will have to linger on for a while so they have time to design the next thing.
|
Quote:
| Another thing I've noticed is that what I suspect the devs have done is working. Very few of us are complaining that there is nothing to do. We're just complaining that we don't like what there is to do. They've succeeded in delivering content that we can't just burn through and get all the rewards from in a couple weeks. And people are getting downright PISSED that they can't burn through it and get all the rewards in a couple weeks. |
Quote:
I will say as bluntly as I can that I have never seen a single person say that. Not one. In fact, it would be a silly thing to say given that pretty much everything CAN be unlocked in a day. The most common complaint is the huge disparity in how long it takes to unlock everything, not the speed in an absolute sense.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
For every person acting like not enjoying incarnate glurge is being selfish, there is another person acting like it's the end of the game that one cannot obtain all the new shinies in a day or a week or whatever
|
I would truly like to see an example of anyone complaining that you cannot unlock everything in a day.
Quote:
I'd just like to point out that those are not PVP awards. They're PVE awards that are (along with badges) used to entice people into a PVP zone. Since the rewards are so nice, the PVP setting is also used as an artificial difficulty.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Utterly and completely false. You can get the shivan shards and warburg nukes form pvp zones which could be used to trivialize certain PVE content. Btw, for a history lesson, the devs DISABLED the use of them in Catherdral of Pain, and now the new Incarnate trials, because those pvp rewards were just that good in pve.
Also pvp IOs can be used in pve and come with secondary pve effects. |
But yes, that is all off topic.
And lest people forget, a lot of these rewards can be gained via astral merits--which can be gotten through means outside of trials. Some of the rewards are, admittedly, silly to lock behind these restrictions.
How many people on either side of this are thinking something like:
Quote:
Well, I feel like that a lot of the time in-game, sometimes I feel it directed at me sometime I feel that way about others.| "This person is being deliberately obstinate in the face of a very simple dilemma, I am frustrated my their lack of consideration of other viewpoints and the bigger picture" |
That's why I dislike teaming, and dislike mass teaming even more. Sometimes it's nice... but rarely
I do however like the game, and my characters and I'd like to progress them at a rate similar to those who do enjoy teaming. None of this suggests that I wish content to be easier (per player) or quicker (per player).
Actually I think the BAF/Lamb and even Keyes would be tonnes (Maybe even a Metric Assload) of fun if scaled down to harder-that-usual-missions level so I could do them like any other mission with EB's or AV's depending on difficulty setting.
Quote:
Actually they are a hybrid, as you can STEAL (by defeating) what's needed to get shivans (I think nukes also) from other players who already did the PVE.
|
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
I'd just like to point out that those are not PVP awards. They're PVE awards that are (along with badges) used to entice people into a PVP zone. Since the rewards are so nice, the PVP setting is also used as an artificial difficulty.
But yes, that is all off topic. And lest people forget, a lot of these rewards can be gained via astral merits--which can be gotten through means outside of trials. Some of the rewards are, admittedly, silly to lock behind these restrictions. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
"Endgame" has always been a bit of a misnomer. A less concise name is "advancement after level 50". That requires that the characters still be able to advance in power, and that they have something to do with that added power.|
Originally Posted by Tatmia
I have a sincere, not sarcastic question that requires a tiny bit of set-up.
When I first started playing the game, I head a lot of complaints about a lack of "endgame" content" beyond Hami raids. Over the years we've seen added to the game (list not in chronological order). Mothership Raids ITF/Lady Grey RWZ Missions Ouroboros for missed/much loved content AE Apex/Tin Mage Tips missions Incarnate Raids So, for those not happy with "endgame" content, what do you feel is missing? |
The problem with almost everything you list there is that they have the same avenue to power advancement - IO enhancements. Mothership and ITF and LG and AE and Tips are all just alternate ways of getting the same advancement. It works, and it is good to have so many different paths.
But it's also bad for several reasons. First off, it's not simple. Do what my roommate does and grab the highest (purple>orange>yellow) set you can get and 6 slot it in the powers you use the most, and you get a slightly improved character compared to what you would get with some bizarre, frankenstein of mixed sets and HOs and everything else built with a specific purpose in mind.
Secondly, inf and the market exist. It is an endgame you can effectively skip if you have some other means of earning money. You can hit 50 and instantly poof yourself to the end of the endgame.
The problem is that endgame needs to be really slow and have tons of stuff to get, but cannot greatly increase power, because as the power creeps up and up, you need more content to justify the need for that new level of power. The IO system has the slow, tiny power creep, but the tons of stuff doesn't exist because of the limited number of slots you have to stick stuff in.
It's a fine system, but it has an effective than many people can reach - or at least give up on going any further into. So, you need a further endgame to play after you reach the end to the first endgame.
Then comes the incarnate system. The absolute worst excuse for an endgame that I can imagine. First off, the rewards are not small, slow increments of power that you can grow into. With the exception of interface, every slot is a tremendous increase as soon as you slot anything. The equivalent of 30 pre-filled slots in your powers. A crashless nuke that's more powerful than a normal one and on a fast timer. A massive heal for those heal-less melee sets who used to scrape by with throwing 2 powers at the medicine pool. A pet that's better than an endless supply of shivans. Then three of them give another huge burst of power when you hit t3.
This is bad design. Gradual rewards are better than huge lumps all at once, because people will accept getting gradual rewards gradually. The way it is set up now, you get nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,no thing,nothing,nothing,OMGTHATSAMAZING,nothing,noth ing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothin g,nothing,nothing,nothing,HOLYCRAPIAMGODHERE,nothi ng,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing. As a reward structure, it is moronic. The only sensible thing to do is burn through to get to whatever you want as fast as possible, because there is absolutely no reinforcement during the process at all.
What I want is a well designed endgame system. The kind where I can get on and play as I would like and on occasion see some new content as I grow out of the old stuff, but generally, just play and see an improvement - no matter how slight. As it stand now, you have a choice between "do this specific content" or "keep pushing Sisyphus", neither of which is enjoyable.
Quote:
The use of the term BS on my part was bad; my excuse is I was starting to write out my post and then looked up to see I was a couple of minutes late to leave for work, so I didn't edit myself. Remember: quick posting can be bad, kids!|
Originally Posted by Pacur
I am sorry you took this to mean that I was trying to BS you. I am trying to express my thoughts in an orderly manner, and could of just said something along the lines of "Youz all is crazy for not likin this new stuff. Now shut it" (NOTE: this is not an invitation to quote the preceding 13 words).
And what exact change in the game are you referring to? because the fundamentals of the game are still the same: team play. |
The reasoning that "you can still do anything you want in the game" which is often tossed out in these discussions is fine up to certain a point, and that point is where I log in and see that a good 80% of people online 50s and I was hoping to do some casual PUGing below 50 like I used to without problem. Playing below 50 these days (for me, at my hours) mostly means soloing or pulling teeth to form my own team - which I can do but never had to do in the past. That's the change I've seen in the game that I dislike.
Things may change, but I've never been big on the previous strike force stuff as it was and as time goes by the devs just seem to keep throwing more of that our way and making it the most rewarding (loot-wise) to do. I think I've done the new one that starts on Sharkhead (over there by the ferry? can't remember the name of it off-hand) three times now and I'm pretty much done with it. It may reward me nicely and all that but to keep running a small set of these things day after day, even just a few times a week would get really old for me. (Same thing goes for playing a 50: I only have two. I enjoyed back in their day but these days it's just dull to play them.)
Quote:
You mean how the Alpha slot currently works? |
Originally Posted by rsclark
"Endgame" has always been a bit of a misnomer. A less concise name is "advancement after level 50". That requires that the characters still be able to advance in power, and that they have something to do with that added power.
The problem with almost everything you list there is that they have the same avenue to power advancement - IO enhancements. Mothership and ITF and LG and AE and Tips are all just alternate ways of getting the same advancement. It works, and it is good to have so many different paths. But it's also bad for several reasons. First off, it's not simple. Do what my roommate does and grab the highest (purple>orange>yellow) set you can get and 6 slot it in the powers you use the most, and you get a slightly improved character compared to what you would get with some bizarre, frankenstein of mixed sets and HOs and everything else built with a specific purpose in mind. Secondly, inf and the market exist. It is an endgame you can effectively skip if you have some other means of earning money. You can hit 50 and instantly poof yourself to the end of the endgame. The problem is that endgame needs to be really slow and have tons of stuff to get, but cannot greatly increase power, because as the power creeps up and up, you need more content to justify the need for that new level of power. The IO system has the slow, tiny power creep, but the tons of stuff doesn't exist because of the limited number of slots you have to stick stuff in. It's a fine system, but it has an effective than many people can reach - or at least give up on going any further into. So, you need a further endgame to play after you reach the end to the first endgame. Then comes the incarnate system. The absolute worst excuse for an endgame that I can imagine. First off, the rewards are not small, slow increments of power that you can grow into. With the exception of interface, every slot is a tremendous increase as soon as you slot anything. The equivalent of 30 pre-filled slots in your powers. A crashless nuke that's more powerful than a normal one and on a fast timer. A massive heal for those heal-less melee sets who used to scrape by with throwing 2 powers at the medicine pool. A pet that's better than an endless supply of shivans. Then three of them give another huge burst of power when you hit t3. This is bad design. Gradual rewards are better than huge lumps all at once, because people will accept getting gradual rewards gradually. The way it is set up now, you get nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,no thing,nothing,nothing,OMGTHATSAMAZING,nothing,noth ing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothin g,nothing,nothing,nothing,HOLYCRAPIAMGODHERE,nothi ng,nothing,nothing,nothing,nothing. As a reward structure, it is moronic. The only sensible thing to do is burn through to get to whatever you want as fast as possible, because there is absolutely no reinforcement during the process at all. What I want is a well designed endgame system. The kind where I can get on and play as I would like and on occasion see some new content as I grow out of the old stuff, but generally, just play and see an improvement - no matter how slight. As it stand now, you have a choice between "do this specific content" or "keep pushing Sisyphus", neither of which is enjoyable. |
EDIT: Not sarcasm, I'm saying the system they implemented for alpha could be added on to other slots: namely Notice of the Well via weekly changing tfs. Perhaps giving both a Rare component AND a Notice as the reward for completing the WST.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
If you got everything you needed from running the trials once, what would be the point of them even existing? They would be just like a cheap drugstore toy: played with for a couple hours, and discarded in favor of something else. |
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
Once the raid is over, you've already burned through that content. But once you're done with the content, you still haven't received any tangible reward, because doing one raid will never reward you enough to actually obtain anything.
|
Why do you have to get a tangible reward EVERY time you do something? What is wrong with earning something over time? Especially since that something was intended to be a timesink in the first place. That's all endgame systems are: timesinks. The devs want people to keep playing the game, so they introduce something that cannot be gotten done and over with quickly.
A Task Force is not an endgame. It does not earn you anything you can't get elsewhere, probably easier. At level 50 there isn't even any character progression.
Before the trials we were told: "Do the same things over and over, and get the same stuff over and over. There's your endgame."
Now, with the trials we are told: "Here's some new stuff to do over and over, but hey, now there's new stuff to be earned from it that we didn't have before."
People don't like running the trials repeatedly, okay, I get that. That does nothing to explain why a lot of the same people who dislike running trials repeatedly will run the ITF repeatedly and see nothing wrong with it at all.
You're doing the same content over and over in either case, why is one okay and one bad? it also makes little sense to me from a rewards standpoint, you get more out of running multiple trials than you ever will out of running multiple ITFs. Yet people are perfectly willing to do ITFs ad nauseum. People are so willing to repeat ITFs that a system was introduced to make sure you can't grind them over and over for massive amounts of merits (though, honestly I think that had more to do with Katie Hannon being doable in 10 minutes for a guaranteed rare recipe than anything else)
And you can't tell me that people do that just because the ITF is fun. I know just as many people that despise the ITF but enjoy the trials, so sheer fun factor can't be the only reason for it.
Running ITF repeatedly = Good, but running trials repeatedly = Bad. I don't understand why people who are not only willing, but eager to do things repeatedly are balking at the idea of doing THIS repeatedly.
And as far as being able to do what you want to get the rewards, I WISH the world worked like that. If it did I could sit at home and play video games and collect a paycheck, instead of going to work. Yes, I know a job and a video game are not the same thing, but the analogy of doing the thing that earns the reward (instead of what you'd prefer to do for the same reward) is valid.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
I stopped here. The WST, which is a task force can MOST CERTAINLY get you something that can advance: Notice of the Well, which can be converted to shards.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If you got everything you needed from running the trials once, what would be the point of them even existing? They would be just like a cheap drugstore toy: played with for a couple hours, and discarded in favor of something else.
Why do you have to get a tangible reward EVERY time you do something? What is wrong with earning something over time? Especially since that something was intended to be a timesink in the first place. That's all endgame systems are: timesinks. The devs want people to keep playing the game, so they introduce something that cannot be gotten done and over with quickly. A Task Force is not an endgame. It does not earn you anything you can't get elsewhere, probably easier. At level 50 there isn't even any character progression. |
Also two specific TFs give you things that are directly tied into Incarnancy: Apex and Tin Mage.
I think this is the issue that many folks are having, the view that some have that endgame MUST equal RAID/Trial when that is NOT the case.
EDIT: And I say all this as someone who loves the trial system despite it's obvious warts, which the devs are working on.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
Gaah..then give us people who cannot, or do not want, to team for a multiple of reasons, a way of continuing down the Incarnate Path solo. |
Originally Posted by Pacur
Again, new costumes and auras signify gain of power through continuing down the path of the Incarnate.
|
That is all I want.
I am not asking for the Devs to stop the trials...not at all. My better half loves them, and I love him, so whatever he enjoys gets my stamp of approval.
I am not asking to do this fast/easy, all I want is a path that will take me to the heights in a semi reasonable amount of time.
Is wanting this so bad?
This new issue is called Freedom.
Locking all the ways of improving your level 50 toon behind mandatory teaming is not Freedom by a long shot. The word Freedom implies we have the ability/freedom to make choices. Where is the choice here?
But, Freedom issue is not here yet.
Could be there is a system going into place for folks like me.
Could be.
On the basis of this seemingly slim hope, I am going to try my darndest not to respond to the posts which make my bloodpressure rise, and rage spew out of every pore of me.
I do not want to be treated like a special little snowflake...not at all, I just want another route to the greatness that is The Incarnates
A route I can happily follow. Longer, harder, it might be, yes...but one I can do.
Lisa-Wishes Black Pebble would relent a bit, and allow the Devs to assure us that there is another route to glory being put into place...better yet, let Black Pebble himself write a post and do the reassuring. I feel that such an assurance would be great for the moral of everyone
Lisa-logging into the game
So don't wait for heroes, do it yourself
You've got the power
winners are losers
who got up and gave it just one more try
***Dennis DeYoung
Actually, Claws, I'm complaining about:
The lack of anything new to do that isn't part of the New Fun;
and even more egregiously, the costume bits, emotes etc that can only very tenuously be justified as "Incarnate" but were gated there specifically as "incentives" for people who would not otherwise run trials (because they just don't like that sort of thing, or have done and stopped because they're bored out of their minds by the grinding, or whyever).
Because, as the Devs themselves admitted, if it was possible to get this stuff any other way, no one would run Trials for their own sake. And then this whole bubble would burst.
New (cosmetic) content that pretty much everyone agrees has nothing really to do with endgame is being held back to prop up said endgame.
Not cool.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
ClawsandEffect,
If I'm going to forced to farm for the l33t gear, I want to do it without having to be teamed up. Farming the ITF over and over, to me, is no different at all than farming Lambda over and over.
I know that farming is necessary in a game like this if you want the good stuff. That's not a problem for me. Being forced to farm with others for that stuff... that's the problem.
Be well, people of CoH.
I wrote out a response and accidentally clicked away before posting, so this is more of a summary (I know what you're thinking, "Laz, if this is the quick version...holy crap"). It's a little more terse than originally intended as a result, but most of the points still stand.
Quote:
Well, they might exist because they're fun? And honestly? I mean that. They're fun. The first couple of times. What they, and all the content in this game is exactly like your analogy: something that's fun to do a few times, at which point you can move on from it and do something new.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If you got everything you needed from running the trials once, what would be the point of them even existing? They would be just like a cheap drugstore toy: played with for a couple hours, and discarded in favor of something else.
|
Quote:
| Why do you have to get a tangible reward EVERY time you do something? What is wrong with earning something over time? Especially since that something was intended to be a timesink in the first place. That's all endgame systems are: timesinks. The devs want people to keep playing the game, so they introduce something that cannot be gotten done and over with quickly. |
What's more, the reason I have four characters I did Incarnates with in the first place was because Alpha was reasonable to obtain with a variety of characters. Making us grind out the trials as it stands doesn't make me do them any more, or less, it just means I have fewer characters I bother to do them with.
Quote:
| A Task Force is not an endgame. It does not earn you anything you can't get elsewhere, probably easier. At level 50 there isn't even any character progression. |
Quote:
|
Before the trials we were told: "Do the same things over and over, and get the same stuff over and over. There's your endgame." Now, with the trials we are told: "Here's some new stuff to do over and over, but hey, now there's new stuff to be earned from it that we didn't have before." |
Basically, the trial system has given us a negative amount of content. There's more to get, but less to do to get it. The whole point of not adding 10 more levels, as has been pointed out in this topic, was because of the steep amount of additional content that would need to be added. The Incarnate system was, in theory, supposed to work, because it involved more things to do to improve our level 50s characters, but since everything we could do before has been removed from that equation, we've actually been given less to do.
Quote:
| People don't like running the trials repeatedly, okay, I get that. That does nothing to explain why a lot of the same people who dislike running trials repeatedly will run the ITF repeatedly and see nothing wrong with it at all. |
I'm snipping the next few paragraphs because, as demonstrated here, you're kind of building off a false premise. But in short, you're right. People who want to maximize rewards grind ITFs unflinchingly. And those same people grind the raids unflinchingly. But the people who want variety can get the same rewards the ITF gives reasonably without doing nothing but ITFs. People who want the rewards from the raids do not have that option.
Quote:
| And as far as being able to do what you want to get the rewards, I WISH the world worked like that. If it did I could sit at home and play video games and collect a paycheck, instead of going to work. Yes, I know a job and a video game are not the same thing, but the analogy of doing the thing that earns the reward (instead of what you'd prefer to do for the same reward) is valid. |
You know what. I give up. You win. Not because you've convinced me. Because you've all shouted me down to the point that there is nothing to be gained by trying to say anything else.
CLEARLY having something set up where you perform X task to gain Y reward is not good enough. Maybe someday I'll see the light and have the epiphany where demanding the makers of a video game do what *I* want them to do seems to be the right course of action.
Hope you all get what you want, but I'm pretty sure that, since the devs have been unable to satisfy any of you for quite a while now you aren't going to be happy with it when you get it.
I look forward to seeing the inevitable complaints about any non-trial incarnate system that is introduced. Because you all know as well as I do that there WILL be complaints. Probably just as many of them as there are about this.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Don't mind the costumes/auras being unlockable.
I do mind however that astral merits cannot be obtained by converting. I also think that the Keyes has the worst trial/tf design by far. lol
Pacur, sorry I didn't see this thread earlier so I can chime in.
I joined a Keyes led by Pacur as soon as 20.5 hit live on Tuesday. It was made up of pretty much everyone who was awake at the time, and we only had 18 random people. I know a few of us were old hands who knew the game in and out, but a lot of the players didn't know much about the trial and how it works. We certainly weren't AT-specific. It was a quick and easy success.
This game isn't becoming a raiding game any more than it became a crafting game after inventions or a PvP game (heh, PvP) after the inclusion of PvP. Since issue 20 I've done my fair share of trials on my two main characters, but I've also brought up a level 29 brute, a level 39 blaster, and a level 11 Praetorian corruptor, while also leveling a level 21 peacebringer and a level 42 defender. There has been no shortage of teams and not "everyone" is doing raids all the time.
City of Heroes isn't "becoming" anything. The forums, however, are maintaining what they have always been: a board for hyperbole and hysterical doom.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
Quote:
You're right, there will be complaints. And the game won't blow up because of it.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
You know what. I give up. You win. Not because you've convinced me. Because you've all shouted me down to the point that there is nothing to be gained by trying to say anything else.
CLEARLY having something set up where you perform X task to gain Y reward is not good enough. Maybe someday I'll see the light and have the epiphany where demanding the makers of a video game do what *I* want them to do seems to be the right course of action. Hope you all get what you want, but I'm pretty sure that, since the devs have been unable to satisfy any of you for quite a while now you aren't going to be happy with it when you get it. I look forward to seeing the inevitable complaints about any non-trial incarnate system that is introduced. Because you all know as well as I do that there WILL be complaints. Probably just as many of them as there are about this. |
It didn't blow up when tanks got bruising. It didn't blow up when defenders got their scaling down as team size goes up damage buff. It didn't blow up when SR got DDR. All the redside players didn't mass-migrate to blueside when we got sideswitching.
And the itrials won't turn into complete ghost towns if a solo incarnate path is added.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
"most" ? "exclusively" ? Bad way to start your premise with such a gross inaccuracy.|
Originally Posted by Winterminal
To quickly address the "it's becoming a raiding game!" concern: this stems from the fact that currently, if only temporarily, most people are playing the trials exclusively.
|
About 1/3 of my playtime is taken up by trials, that's recruiting included. Last night I ran the Usurper arc with a friend, helped 2 other friends get Portal Jockey, and ran some tips on my lowbie Cold Defender.
I get a pretty good handle on what's going on on the server because I'm nearly always watching PinnBadges with half an eye. Even on a day like Patch day, Trials are barely over half the things happening.
Do they take up a lot of people during prime time? yup, but they're by no means the only thing people are doing.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Quote:
And do you know why? It's because that's a chore. Games are supposed to be fun, not a chore.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
CLEARLY having something set up where you perform X task to gain Y reward is not good enough.
|
If it had been that I had to do X1, X2, X3, X4, X5, X6, X7, X8, X9 or X10, or a combination of those involving similar amount of play, then I could possibly accept doing that to get Y.
If you think it's fun, then by all means, enjoy it, but don't expect me to. And don't expect that the "do X to get Y" argument bites on me anymore than the "can't we at least have an option to do X2, X3, X4, X5, X6, X7, X8, X9 or X10 instead?" bites on you.
Still @Shadow Kitty
"I became Archvillain before Statesman nerfed himself!"
Quote:
Really helps to surround yourself and keep in touch with people who don't like to do the same things over and over. I run with a lot of different people on Pinnacle (looks like a several of them have posted in this thread). I keep track of the ones I get along with and we end up doing a wide variety of things on a given week.|
Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5
The use of the term BS on my part was bad; my excuse is I was starting to write out my post and then looked up to see I was a couple of minutes late to leave for work, so I didn't edit myself. Remember: quick posting can be bad, kids!
The reasoning that "you can still do anything you want in the game" which is often tossed out in these discussions is fine up to certain a point, and that point is where I log in and see that a good 80% of people online 50s and I was hoping to do some casual PUGing below 50 like I used to without problem. Playing below 50 these days (for me, at my hours) mostly means soloing or pulling teeth to form my own team - which I can do but never had to do in the past. That's the change I've seen in the game that I dislike. Things may change, but I've never been big on the previous strike force stuff as it was and as time goes by the devs just seem to keep throwing more of that our way and making it the most rewarding (loot-wise) to do. I think I've done the new one that starts on Sharkhead (over there by the ferry? can't remember the name of it off-hand) three times now and I'm pretty much done with it. It may reward me nicely and all that but to keep running a small set of these things day after day, even just a few times a week would get really old for me. (Same thing goes for playing a 50: I only have two. I enjoyed back in their day but these days it's just dull to play them.) |
Sure we tend to gravitate toward some of the popular options for a given week, but even so we do our best to change things up with different team mixes and alts.
The game is as boring and repetitive as you LET it be. Running the same thing more than once is only boring if you fixate on 'omg this is the Xth time I've done this'
Sorry your tolerances for fun and variety are such that you're 'done' with a fun new TF like Mortimer Kal after only 3 times. I think that has more to do with your mindset as a player than it does with this game, because the game really does have more to offer when you don't put the entire onus for fun on the game itself.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Quote:
I think you are right that we have to agree to disagree on that. I am viewing the auras and costume pieces obtainable only through e-merits together with their names and the story we have going on in general. So to me, they are signifying an increase in power, and since before we haven't really had anything like the Incarnates rewards. But I guess costumes are just costumes and auras are just auras to other people.|
Originally Posted by Winterminal
I am responding to the whole post, but just quoting the TLDR sections for brevity's sake. I fully see your point here, and admittedly, it is hard for me to form a rebuttal, so this may just be an "agree to disagree" thing. I see no true in-game visual definition of what it means to be an incarnate, so to assign this fairly hodge-podge group of auras, trail auras, and costume change emotes as stuff that can only be unlocked with Incarnate merits seems arbitrary and unnecessary. You, coming at it from a different angle, see these rewards as an effort to visually define what it means to be an Incarnate. Both are valid viewpoints, just different, and I think we both get that. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Winterminal
First, I'm a little hurt that you don't realize we are on the same server, especially after I was actually online to congratulate you upon completing those 4 Shadow Shard TFs, let alone the fact that we've conversed over PinnBadges and teamed on a trial or two . Kidding/teasing aside, "exclusively" was a poor choice of words on my part. I meant that trials are currently the "hot" item, much like Architect missions (especially farms) were the hot items when Issue 14 launched. Back then, yes, you could find players to do other content with, but most were in Atlas Park's AE building. Now, as before, you can definitely find players to run TFs or even simple mission teams, but most can be found in RWZ or Pocket D, playing their 50s through the Trials.
|
As for the Incarnates are the current hot items thing? yes, I agree with you there to an extent. Especially with the new trial coming out, there is great interest in it. But as you yourself implied, the hotness of these things will die down, as it did for AE, and the population will "redistribute".
Remember all those requests for another ten levels? Raising the cap to 60 and beyond? What's the most common reason cited for not doing it? Right...the Devs would spend years writing the content only to have some players devour it in a month. We have the same situation here folks.
The Devs have spent the better part of a year writing end-game content because WE said we wanted it. The problem is that they can't properly pace things because they have to take into account every paying customer from the casual to the insane. They made the Trials shorter than most of the TFs because many of US complained that many of the TFs were too long. They gave us tremendous Powers that we can use outside the Trials but are hard enough to get that we actually have to work for them.
There's the problem right there....too many of us are treating it like work. "I HAVE to have my T4 Lore Power TODAY! I HAVE to unlock every costume part available THIS WEEKEND! Daddy I want an Oompahloompah NOW!"
WE are the ones creating part of this problem people. If it weren't for the fact that so many of us tear down the content road like speed-freaks the Devs MIGHT have dialed down the requirements for everything. Personally I'd have no problem with a costume set costing me a weekend's play. If I really want it, I'll do the content. But in part because of the few players chewing up 8 Trials a day the Devs have to raise the requirements on everything. Shards and Threads and Merits are the same way IMHO.
I know the horse is out of the barn and there's no way to go back. But maybe, just maybe, if we SLOW DOWN and enjoy the content once in a while the Devs will be able to worry more about WHAT rewards we're getting and not HOW FAST we get them. To me the former is the more important.
I've been saying similar for quite a while now.
Why are these things so difficult to acquire?
Because the devs know damn well that if they weren't a whole lot of people would burn through everything in a week and be right back to complaining that they need more stuff to do. It is quite simply completely impossible for the developers of ANY game to deliver content as fast as that game's players can blast through it and get bored again. It just can't be done. It takes nearly a year of development to design something that we can play, master, and get burned out on in less than a month. With that kind of ratio of effort to player entertainment, the devs have no choice but to design things that we will have to linger on for a while so they have time to design the next thing.
I do think gating things that a brand new level 1 character can use behind level 50 exclusive content is a little extreme, but they have to put it somewhere, and they have to give us a reason to keep running the content they've busted their butts for the past year making.
If we could unlock all this stuff easily, without having to run trials, well, the devs would have worked their tails off on the trials for nothing. Because the trials would quickly go the way of Kahn and Barracuda: Played to death for the first few weeks of their existence, and now only occasionally done for the novelty of doing something different.
Comicsluvr is right about another thing. The end game only exists because WE ASKED FOR IT. Not every individual player asked for it, not trying to say that. But, enough people had been asking for some kind of end game to be added for literally YEARS now that the devs finally decided to give it to them. Is everyone going to enjoy it equally? Highly unlikely, I have yet to see ANYTHING in this game that received universal acceptance and praise from every single individual player.
I gotta admit, I respect the devs' stance that, since they know damn well they're NEVER going to please everyone all at once, they're not going to TRY to please everyone all at once.
Another thing I've noticed is that what I suspect the devs have done is working. Very few of us are complaining that there is nothing to do. We're just complaining that we don't like what there is to do. They've succeeded in delivering content that we can't just burn through and get all the rewards from in a couple weeks. And people are getting downright PISSED that they can't burn through it and get all the rewards in a couple weeks.
Long term rewards, they exist now. You can't get them through solo farming, and you can't buy them. How many people got their PvP IOs through actually PvPing like was originally intended? Not too damn many, I'm sure. The ones on the market almost definitely came from AFK farming instead of active PvPing. The devs have introduced rewards to the game that you CANNOT gain through exploits, and it seems the lack of ability to exploit something to get them is pissing people off.
We brought this on ourselves. If we weren't so damned determined to gain as much of a reward with as little effort as possible, the devs probably never would have felt it necessary to gate anything behind a task we HAVE to do to receive it.
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.