Ok, listen, this is starting to get to a critical mass

Of which there are a gajillion (hyperbole) already available, and very soon purchasable through PPoints. Which, by the way, is probably what they are banking on as a major revenue stream in the f2p model. It reeks a little of QQ to single out a, what, couple dozen parts (out of how many in this game again?) simply because you don't *want* to do the content for which they are a reward.

To put it another way, keeping them as an incarnate reward isn't going to have any affect on costume pieces being a draw to the game given the mass of them that will be in the PPoint store, plus the ones that are free, plus the ones that are unlockable through all sorts of other content.

I never said costume pieces were not important to me, I said I failed to see them being tied to a trial reward as being a problem. They are dirt cheap in terms of merits, and unlocked account wide.


Why doesn't anyone complain that they have to run the ITF multiple times in order to unlock the Nictus shield? It's the same thing. If I want my Rularuu hammer or sword, I have to go to the Shadow Shard to get it. Same thing. There were already costume rewards that are locked behind content.

Not gonna happen - the Incarnate system is designed to be endless - Positron has said that players will "always be chasing the next big thing" with it - more slots can be added to the 10 announced ones, more trees can be added to existsing slots, more rewards can be added to the Empyrean and Astral stores.
A lot of planning has gone into the system to make it so open-ended - which is why Positron prefers the term "elder game" rather than "end game", as "end game" implies that it's somehow the finish, and has an eventual stop point.

Sorry it took long to respond. Let me address this one by one:

- "I don't like that the final fight of this trial relies on healing so much", I am NOT saying "this trial is too hard" NOR "I want this trial to be easy".

"I don't like that the final fight of this trial relies on healing so much" means "I don't like that the final fight of this trial relies on healing so much".

As I said earlier, the trial is like a competition, in that in a competition competitors are tested in different ways. Much like in the Lambda, where the test is the ability to work separately, and together at the same time, and the BAF, where the object is the keep damage split evenly, lest the bosses resurrect each other, this is a test of the ability to survive high damage dished out periodically.

- "I would rather see it work this way", I am NOT saying "the devs should change it to be this way" NOR "the game should be designed around what I want".

"I would rather see it work this way" means "I would rather see it work this way".


Alright, which aspect are we talking about here, and how would you like it to work?


- "This mechanic makes very specific powersets much, much more useful than others", I am NOT saying "you have to have these specific powersets to succeed" NOR "no other powerset can do the task".

"This mechanic makes very specific powersets much, much more useful than others" means "this mechanic makes very specific powersets much, much more useful than others"

I tried an experiment today. I ran Keyes with whoever showed up. In the end, we had not one, but two people who did not have alpha slotted, and we succeeded. It is a bit of an exaggeration stating that this trial makes very specific powersets much much more useful than others.

As for the final part, you seem to be assuming a lot about me as well. I will not say more than that.

Again, these costumes and emotes are a reward for heroes and villains on the Incarnate path solely. They are meant to signify the acquisition of power. So, no trial means no E-Merits, and no emotes and costumes.

I genuinely feel bad for your friend. Maybe if he tweaked the settings a bit he would be able to run the trials? Is it trials only, or any large-group setting that causes him problems? I would gladly help if I could.

Not bad, you?

Running this through the BS translator, I keep getting "Sure, you can solo anytime you want!" and/or "Sure, you can be forced into leading a half-size team to do the older content anytime you want!" Both reflect a change in the game, which did not use to be like that. This may still be a temp fluke, but with new end-game Free-player temptations to sub to the game being provided with every issue, I doubt it.

In BAF, it is the bosses who are sequestering you. Here, Anti-matter goes kinda "If I can't have this, noone will" and starts the bursts of radiation. It happens every 30 seconds, and is actually much easier to see than who got the rings in a dogpile around Nightstar and Siege.

What TwoHeadedBoy said. Again, going back to my competition analogy, yada yada...you can scroll up and read it.

Thank you for the show of support. i especially have to wholeheartedly agree with the last paragraph. From what I'm seeing is that most people are just fine and dandy with this. Then there are people who don't really agree with this, but can live with the way it is. And then there are certain individuals that for one reason or another (ranging from that they sincerely, wholeheartedly believe what they are saying, and I genuinely LIKE these people, to trolls basically wanting to elicit a reaction, who I don't like so much) who cause a ruckus. (IMPORTANT NOTE HERE: I believe strongly in the quote "Dissent, rebellion, and all-around hell-raising remain the true duty of patriots.", because they provide a counter-balance that is necessary in almost all situations. I AM NOT calling the people who genuinely believe they are helping trolls or the like).

With this I kind of agree. s it stands, it takes about 40 minutes to clear Keyes beginning to end (that is IF Anti-Matter doesn't get stuck in the geometry which happened the last 3 out of 4 times I ran it.)

But I believe as more people become experienced with it, that time will significantly go down.

Very nicely put.

I completely agree with this line: "The biggest complaint I've seen that I empathize with is that these trials are the only way to (reasonably) get a lot of the neat stuff unlocked." The way it's designed, it kind of implies you need to put forward a good effort to unlock the shiny stuff, because of the gain of power (I won't repeat the whole thing again, since I don't want to sound like a broken record (and I can already see the people using that line, and saying "well, you ALREADY sound like one)).

I'm not exactly sure what is being meant here.

Are you saying I do not understand that players are running trials not because they like them, and they only want the end-reward (a point on which i am sorry but I have to disagree with you here).

Or are you saying players hate trials?


I completely agree with you on the alpha slot thing, except I don't see how the incarnate system preaches endless trials. Hopefully, once Freedom hits it will be easier to find people (I know free players can't do incarnates right out of the box. My logic is this: Free player sees cool shiny thing. Free player finds out he can only get it via Incarnates. Free player subscribes. Win win for everybody) ad the wait time will be reduced.

Or, maybe there will be an implementation of cross-server groups, though i do not foresee any of that in the immediate future. Or maybe we'll get server mergers which will increase the player base on low-pop servers. I honestly think that would be the easiest solution.

Again, new costumes and auras signify gain of power through continuing down the path of the Incarnate.

I completely agree on the technical side of things. Lag, ruberbanding, tray lag, and other tech-related issues are very bad. Hopefully, like you said, hardware (and perhaps) software upgrades will ease the issues.

A bar code symbol on your chest? Being able to faint? Trailing bubbles behind you? Truly awesome Incarnate power.

I certainly hope the devs see sense and make these items available in the PP store, because Goddess knows I will not be running a single iTrial to get any of them.

Completely agree on the last paragraph. It has no connection to the challenge, but...reconstruction of those aspects would be tedious as well.

I certainly see your point, and honestly this is a subject of much though for me. My main pretty much destroyed plans to take over the world a dozen times over (sometimes within one week), and i get the ability to lie down? THAT kind of stuff, I cant agree in any ay should be locked behind E-Merits. Astrals? Maybe. but a long stretched maybe.


I have to respectfully disagree on the auras here. Again, citing my reason of "shows character is becoming more powerful by walking the incarnate path".

We have an extremely large collection of costume pieces already. As in MILLIONS of possible combos. Pretty hard to not get at least close to something you imagine in your head nowadays.

Again, citing my reason why these particular costume pieces are only available to folks who run trials, and are purchasable with E-Merits.

I'm sorry, but to me there is a flaw in your argument: PvP did not give any other rewards than those that can be used in PvP. This game is not about mainly PvP. It is mainly about PvE. Hence, it is extremely unlikely that Incarnates will be neglected in the same way that PvP would be.

I don't consider being able to faint as a signaler of a gain of power.

That's something a level 1 character should be able to do, if you think of it from an RP perspective.

Epic abilities at their 3rd and 4th tier that allow you to show just how powerful you are. . . sure. Being able to faint as a show of power? Epic silliness. We'll have to agree to disagree.

And to address the question that everyone in this thread keeps ignoring, yes I fully expect these emotes and auras to be able to be bought with Paragon Points soon. I'd welcome that.

I personally think there should be NO limits to what they put into their Micro-transactions system. Look at other threads related to COH Freemium. I"ve been consistent on that.

I am sorry you took this to mean that I was trying to BS you. I am trying to express my thoughts in an orderly manner, and could of just said something along the lines of "Youz all is crazy for not likin this new stuff. Now shut it" (NOTE: this is not an invitation to quote the preceding 13 words).

And what exact change in the game are you referring to? because the fundamentals of the game are still the same: team play.

Bar code and faint, I agree, are not E-Merit worthy. Bubbles? Another case, as that is again, signifying gain in power. (Please see above for clarification).

Fainting and the like: Completely agree. See above.

Utterly and completely false. You can get the shivan shards and warburg nukes form pvp zones which could be used to trivialize certain PVE content. Btw, for a history lesson, the devs DISABLED the use of them in Catherdral of Pain, and now the new Incarnate trials, because those pvp rewards were just that good in pve.

Also pvp IOs can be used in pve and come with secondary pve effects.

With that said, I want to mention I agree with a lot of what you say. The trails aren't that bad.

However, as TonyV pointed out it is 100% valid to come to the forums and say I dislike them because of this or that, just as it's valid to say you like them.

There are aspects of the trials (like the silly participation rewards system that I still suspect is bugged in many ways) that I dislike even though I LIKE the trails system.

Keyes isn't bad but it's not something I'll be running regularly unlike the BAF and Lambda (even with it's warehouse lag map).

EDIT: The Praetorian Hamidon looks like it's going to be very interesting, btw.

For the participation reward you means stuff like the extra astral for killing 30 IDF on the final phase of LAM or something else entirely?

So Speedball (http://marvel.wikia.com/Robert_Baldwin_(Earth-616) ) is an Incarnate?

There is an Incarnate Rewards thread in the development part of the forums that explains the issues. It's been going on for a while.

I am aware of the PVP IOs.

What you are referring to such as the nuke, and shivans, they are useful in only a very limited degree. Shivans you get a pet, and nuke is well..a nuke.

Saying that the PvP rewards such as shivans and nukes (I am not talking about PvP IOs here) changed the game, I'm sorry, but I just don't see it.

Ok, my logic is as follows: At level thirty, heroes and villains to unlock Auras must undergo a mission, much like unlocking capes. This somehow changes them, where now they can give off these well, auras. So, lvl 30 you get aura, and later you can unlock another aura by running exclusive E-merit content, that content changes the hero/villain somehow, and they can now form this new aura. Hence, increase in power, and ability to do the aura.

There were hamdion raids that were made TRIVIAL with just NUKES.

Shivans can basically allow some sets to solo AVs alone.

And as I said the devs DISABLED use of the for a reason. 16-24 players using Shivans and nukes would have made the trails stupendously easy. There was a MULTIPAGE thread discussing the decision made to disallow them. They are that good.

Those rewards most certainly DID change the game.

EDIT: There are also 3 TYPE of nukes unless my memory fails: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=205678

From that thread on them above:

"The nuke is kinda of underwhelming against a single hard target.

Though 8 of them together after 8 bios and 8 chem burns are downright nasty against the Freedom Phalanx in the LRSF."

"They are very effective against Hamidon if everyone has them and uses them correctly "

"The nukes are meant for teams. By yourself they are a good buff, a good debuff, and a good AoE damage attack. That's bugger-all for an hour's work and under no circumstances should you tolerate such antics. Once you start playing with teams, you start seeing results. A whole team rendered hard to kill and with a fat damage buff is huge. The rare all-boss spawns go down well when nuked. But where you truly start to see shenanigans are when they stack. Archvillains and Heroes at the end of very hard SFs and TFs are no match for a properly-prepared team, and nor are the buff abd debuff caps. Imagine, if you will, eight Bionukes, followed by eight Chemical Burns, followed by eight Nuclear Blasts. That is a 1200% Damage buff, a 6400% regen buff, -400% resistance, -280% defense, -240% endurance, -800% recovery, and around 4800 damage before buffs and debuffs. For some teams this is unacceptably slow, and they will instead summon and Biological Mutagen eight Shivan Decimators.

If this concept fills you with a sense of almost religious terror, do not be alarmed. It proves only that you are still sane.

One nuke on one man is crap. One nuke on eight men is devastation. Eight nukes on eight men is such incalculable power as words fail to describe it. No sooner do you see a foe than they fall as though the Hand of God simply reached down and turned them off."

I could go on.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Cathedral_of_Pain_Trial

After entering the room, characters can look upon an Aspect of Rularuu. He is surrounded by a shield similar to the ones around the Resonators. There are three more Willforges. The shield can be brought down using the same method previously used on the resonators. Once all the mobs are defeated, characters have about a minute to fight the Archvillain. He has good regeneration. Temporary powers such as Shivans, and other enemy debuffs can improve the chance to defeat the AV in one attempt. (Note: Warburg nukes cannot be used during this trial.) Once he is defeated, players can choose a reward of either a Temp Power with a small number of Reward Merits or a large number of Reward Merits. Each member also gets a huge end of mission bonus to compensate for not gaining any experience, INF, or drops in the mission.

Not trying to be condescending but you need to read up on these "pvp rewards" and what they can do before you outright dismiss them.

How do you explain the auras that can be BOUGHT, if auras are supposedly an increase in power?

At lvl 30, you get Auras ABC. After running E-Merit content, you get E-Merits, along with gaining power. This allows you to access auras XYZ

E-merits, after all, are just a means to an end, meaning that they themselves are NOT "power". They are used by players in this game because its hard to show you gaining power without some sort of token, at this point anyway.

I mean the auras that can bought with real money and used at level 1. Aka, some of the booster pack auras, and I assume the auras that will be buyable at level 1 from the Freemium market.

In all honestly we are getting completely off topic here, and a shivan/nuke thread should be saved for another time.

I was saying that Incarnates were not going to go the way of PvP, because the main focus is PvE in this game. The main focus of my point was that and not the other thing.



Booster packs with auras are a different animal than having to unlock these auras with E-merits. I won't comment on the market yet, because there is little known about it at this time.