Contradictory Info on Premium Access to Incarnates
By
Amy_Amp,
Posted on: 2011-06-23 08:25 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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And this has been tied to mentions of revisions to older vet rewards which implies that perhaps some of the vet rewards that were much leaner are now beefed up with premium account unlocks.
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
The phrasing used by rednames has been "probably won't."
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None of those go astray of the "buy it, own it forever" rule.
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Originally Posted by LISAR
Maybe vetted will mean box plus a month so anyone who had a free month gets them but people who made the during old trial accounts, buddy codes, or something similar won't be able to access them.
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The problem is overgeneralizing what is meant by "buying" something. There are people who think that when they bought City of Heroes itself they "bought" several dozen slots. But that isn't really true, and even if they did they didn't buy permanent *access* to them.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
So, what's the real story?
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If I buy the Martial Arts pack now and then unsubscribe, do they take Ninja Run from me? Well, not really: all my characters still have it. I just can't log in. This distinction between access and ownership becomes especially blurry when it comes to things like the boxed expansions. Did we "buy" four slots per server with CoV, or did we just become entitled to access four more slots per server so long as we maintained a subscription.
This isn't so much a semantic quibble as it represents an inadequacy of simplified language. The bottom line is this, we used to have two axioms that worked pretty well to describe what happens to our accounts with regard to monetary transactions:
1. Once you buy it, the fact that you bought it stays on your account forever.
2. Once you stop subscribing, you lose the ability to log into your account.
Simple. Freedom changes the rules, and all statements by the devs must be interpreted within this new context:
1. Once you buy an account unlock, its unlocked for your account forever.
2. Subscribers have access to a subset of the content so long as they remain subscribers.
3. Non-subscribers have access to a smaller subset of the content automatically.
But just as now, to *use* anything you must both *own* it and have *access* to it. The problem is that what we get in City of Heroes Freedom is the *intersection* of what we have bought and what we have gained access to. If we bought Electric Control but not controllers, we still own Electric Control, we just can't use it. We may have "bought" the Incarnate system with Going Rogue, but we will only have access to it if we meet the requirements for access which at the moment seem to be either maintaining a subscription, or buying or earning an unlock of some kind.
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Except when a Producer says Premium accounts don't have access to Incarnate content, without any other qualification, which throws that all up in the air. That's the statement which to me seems to be the odd man out and a misstatement.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
We may have "bought" the Incarnate system with Going Rogue, but we will only have access to it if we meet the requirements for access which at the moment seem to be either maintaining a subscription, or buying or earning an unlock of some kind.
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Becasue you are no longer paying a monthly subscription fee for that access.
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Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Same exact issue with Controllers and MMs. If I previously put down money on the CoH or CoV box(es), why is it possible for me to lose access to those ATs?
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om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Maybe Premiums wil still be able to use the Incarnate system as in getting Shards, converting them to threads, buying iXPs, etc... but won't have access to the trials, unless they buy them like they will have to buy the Signature Monthly Arcs if they want to play them?
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Except when a Producer says Premium accounts don't have access to Incarnate content, without any other qualification, which throws that all up in the air. That's the statement which to me seems to be the odd man out and a misstatement.
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In terms of profit, it would be foolish to let returning players have full access to the incarnate system (ie. their most recent and compelling content in addition to the best rewards) without spending a dime beyond the onetime cost of going rogue (which, these days, is quite cheap).
If I had my suggestion, I would think that they should give access to the Alpha slot to premium players (with GR), but not slots and trials beyond that (except through subscription or piecemeal for paragon points). The alpha slot uses primarily recycled content, but is engaging enough to get players active with their old characters.
Sermon
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Suddenly their decision to have the Alpha slot work with its own separate currency makes a lot more sense; I suspect that this already the case.
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Originally Posted by Sermon
If I had my suggestion, I would think that they should give access to the Alpha slot to premium players (with GR), but not slots and trials beyond that (except through subscription or piecemeal for paragon points). The alpha slot uses primarily recycled content, but is engaging enough to get players active with their old characters.
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Maybe this is the "real" reason Incarnate Abilities were removed from GR? Because they wanted to block Incarnate Abilities from anyone but paying customers and didn't want to deal with premium players who would say "but I purchased GR and you [Paragon] said I could use anything I purchased, therefore you have to let me use Incarnate Abilities."
I lub me sum conspiracy theories! 
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I do think that the Community/Dev team needs to become very careful about things like this, making sure to state what category (free for all, included in VIP and purchaseable for others, Purchaseable by all) new content they show/announce will fall into (right from the first time they announce/show it).
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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I could see this happening. The devs know that a lot of people are playing specifically for the Incarnate stuff. So it would only make sense that they open at least some of it up for the free/premium players.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
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Example:
If you are a player who purchased Going Rogue but then dropped down to the Premium level, you might get the Alpha slot for 'free', but none of the other Incarnate slots. Free players might be able to purchase access to the Alpha slot and in doing so would be bumped up to Premium status. Maybe it would even be allowed for Premium players to purchase individual Incarnate slots at some point down the line without becoming a full on VIP subscriber.
I have no idea if this is something the devs are looking at, but it would be a way to showcase part of the endgame system without giving it all away.
I know I could see this on the Paragon Market...
Alpha Slot - Purchasing this opens up your Alpha Incarnate slot. You now have the ability to collect Incarnate salvage and craft new abilities to make your characters stronger.
Lambda Sector - Purchasing this opens up 2 new Incarnate slots (Destiny and Interface) and the Lambda Sector Trial.
After Lambda and BAF are purchased I could see a "discounted" price being offered for other trials like Keyes Island and the upcoming Hamidon Trial. Future Incarnate powers and trials would need to be purchased separately perhaps, but it if the free player wanted it...
If a free (not a downgraded-to-Premium) player sticks around long enough to get to 50 without buying ANYTHING along the way, I'd be impressed. But maybe once they hit 50 they may want to improve their character, but simply may not be able to pay for the monthly subscription. Offering the Incarnate slots for sale wouldn't 'cheapen' them significantly in my eyes as the player would still need to play long enough to acquire the items needed to actually slot those Incarnate abilities.
I know I've always wanted to get a second account but simply can't justify the second monthly fee. With CoH: Freedom coming though, I plan on having a second account as a freebie that might likely be a Premium account right off the bat. I wouldn't mind paying to have access to Incarnate abilities on a second account. If it were to happen, great. If not, I'll still start up a second account anyway. If I get a few extra bucks I'll throw it at the second account and improve it while maintaining my main VIP account.
I think as long as the price were not outrageous, NCSoft could get a lot of revenue from something like this.
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The thing is Going Rogue proper, the box, which was Issue 18, didn't have any incarnate content. It unlocked some powersets, side switching and Praetoria. Incarnate didn't come till Issue 19.
Yes, at one point Incarnate was suppose to be part of it, as was Ultra Mode before it, and the Incarnate stuff is gated with requiring GR but you can rules lawyer that free GR only means the stuff you got with Issue 18 and make the post Level 50 content VIP or purchasable/unlockable with with Paragon Rewards.
What I foresee when Freedom goes live that we will get our 400pts per month starting July and a pile of Paragon Rewards based on the number of months we subscribed (unclear about free months from box set purchases). Those can be used to unlock ATs, Powersets and possibly content for Premium play. So for us long time subscribers, Premium may not be as bad as some of the worse case scenareos I've been seeing in some of the "oh no!" threads.
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As someone popping back to check things out, I think they need clearer descriptions otherwise it will lead to bad feeling.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
VIP is paying subscription.
Premium means you're not paying subscription, but you have paid for something at some point, to include being a previous subscriber. |
I wonder if they used the same people to come up with those names as the ITL people did for "Standard" and "Normal"? Thats a sad IT joke, in case you are wondering
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I'd like a clear answer to the original question this thread poses.
But also, even if we lose Incarnate status for dropping to premium, please let us at least purchase it back with Points or better yet, Rewards.
It's threads like these that make me glad I'm staying VIP.
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That's actually a good point. Even when Alpha was originally intended to be part of I18/GR, it was called a sneak peek not the actual system. So the devs never actually said that buying Going Rogue was equivalent to buying the Incarnate system itself.|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
The thing is Going Rogue proper, the box, which was Issue 18, didn't have any incarnate content. It unlocked some powersets, side switching and Praetoria. Incarnate didn't come till Issue 19.
Yes, at one point Incarnate was suppose to be part of it, as was Ultra Mode before it, and the Incarnate stuff is gated with requiring GR but you can rules lawyer that free GR only means the stuff you got with Issue 18 and make the post Level 50 content VIP or purchasable/unlockable with with Paragon Rewards. |
I also think I have a cleaner perspective on the difference between buying something and upgrading your subscription to access something after thinking about the discussion going on in the global slot thread. My best analogy on that particular point is here.
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That may be a viable option which they are considering.|
Originally Posted by Haetron
But also, even if we lose Incarnate status for dropping to premium, please let us at least purchase it back with Points or better yet, Rewards.
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With so many different systems being built up over the seven years of the game (Incarnates included), this is going to be a HUGE challenge for Paragon Studios to handle situations such as this potential scenario as well as others... and it will be how these situations are resolved which may well determine that the shift in business model will either usher in a new brighter era for CoH... or sign its death certificate.
Ashes to ashes,
Pheonyx
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Thanks for catching this Zman, marketing is removing the asterisks from the Underground Trial preview shortly.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Of course, this is completely contradicted by the Issue 21 Feature update that says that The Underground Incarnate Trial was purchasable for Premium members. It's Incarnate Content, but, purchasable, which contradicts what Clockwork O1 said.
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Sorry for the confusion everyone, as you can imagine, we have a lot of moving parts going on here, sadly, a pair of asterisks ended up in the wrong place, consequently delivering the wrong information.
To clarify this definitively:
All Incarnate content is restricted to VIP players.
People have a really eff'd up perspective.
NOW:
You stop paying them money each month, you lose access to your Incarnate powers, Mastermind and...oh...EVERYTHING. Because they cut you off from the server. You can have paid all you want for Going Rogue. You don't pay the monthly sub, you don't get to use it. All those costume Boosters you paid for? Worthless without the game.
FUTURE:
You stop paying them money each month you lose access to your Incarnate powers, Mastermind and some other things...but you get to keep access to a bunch of other stuff, including the servers.
As opposed to NOW where you retain access to NOTHING if you stop paying.
Having access to some things while not paying is better than having access to nothing while not paying. Period.
.
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Does this mean that characters I have who have earned incarnate powers will lose access to them if I cease being a subscriber?
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Originally Posted by Clockwork O1
To clarify this definitively:
All Incarnate content is restricted to VIP players. |
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Yes. This. Absolutely.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Having access to some things while not paying is better than having access to nothing while not paying. Period.
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I have been advised that if you let your VIP status lapse you will lose access to these abilities. You won't lose the ability itself, however it will not be usable.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Does this mean that characters I have who have earned incarnate powers will lose access to them if I cease being a subscriber?
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edited with correct information
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
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Thanks for clarifying this.
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Originally Posted by Clockwork O1
Thanks for catching this Zman, marketing is removing the asterisks from the Underground Trial preview shortly.
Sorry for the confusion everyone, as you can imagine, we have a lot of moving parts going on here, sadly, a pair of asterisks ended up in the wrong place, consequently delivering the wrong information. To clarify this definitively: All Incarnate content is restricted to VIP players. |
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To be clear, it's just a "Sub or you're out of luck" situation? Not even purchaseable on a per character basis with Points? Or is the jury still out on that?
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Originally Posted by Clockwork O1
Thanks for catching this Zman, marketing is removing the asterisks from the Underground Trial preview shortly.
Sorry for the confusion everyone, as you can imagine, we have a lot of moving parts going on here, sadly, a pair of asterisks ended up in the wrong place, consequently delivering the wrong information. To clarify this definitively: All Incarnate content is restricted to VIP players. |
Going Rogue was an Expansion to the game that included Praetoria, 4 Powersets, CoH/V Morality System, *and* the Incarnate System.
It was made very explicit that the purchase of that expansion was access to the Incarnate System, even though the first part of the Incarnate System was pushed off an issue.
What happens if you try to use a premium account unlock token on an already incarnated character? Can this be done? Would that character lose their incarnate abilities? Can you still get shards, just not use them? etc. etc.