The devil in the details: What can go wrong with Freedom {and how to prevent it}

Amy_Amp · 06-23-2011 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forbin_Project

Our F2P restrictions are no more or less limiting than the restrictions other MMO's that have gone F2P have and they have plenty of free players and their games suck compared to CoH.

I can start teams and send tells perfectly fine in two of the F2P games I have played. Both have VIP options as well.

Clouded · 06-23-2011 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forbin_Project

There ya go. Hope it helps.

Thanks and that's a bit disheartening that I will lose my ability to chat and utilize global channels.

VoodooGirl · 06-23-2011 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _eeek_

1. Have letter explaining CoX etiquette.

That's like explaining where to find unicorns.

Forbin_Project · 06-23-2011 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy_Amp

I can start teams and send tells perfectly fine in two of the F2P games I have played. Both have VIP options as well.

So what?

I'm an F2P player on one game that prevents me from leveling past 10.

I'm an F2P player on two other games that put a severe limit on how much gold a character can carry as opposed to the VIPs who can have unlimited wealth.

Our F2P model doesn't do either so ours is no better or worse than others in the industry.

rsclark · 06-23-2011 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forbin_Project

Our F2P restrictions are no more or less limiting than the restrictions other MMO's that have gone F2P have and they have plenty of free players and their games suck compared to CoH.

Wrong. In that dragon game, free players have zone broadcast ability and the ability to send tells. Not to mention the vastly superior tool to assist in finding groups in the first place, so even if they did hinder communication to the same degree, it would still be better than what free players here are going to get.

And for new players without a group, this game is going to suck incredibly bad.

rsclark · 06-23-2011 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forbin_Project

So what?

I'm an F2P player on one game that prevents me from leveling past 10.

I'm an F2P player on two other games that put a severe limit on how much gold a character can carry as opposed to the VIPs who can have unlimited wealth.

Our F2P model doesn't do either so ours is no better or worse than others in the industry.

But even with those things listed, new players are not severely limited in experiencing the game. Large amounts of gold are more important later in the game than for beginning characters. Leveling past 10 is obviously a later concern. Talking to people and grouping is something that affects you the first instant to log into the game. It is a bad first impression as opposed to a limitation that hits you later only after you have been hooked.

Flarstux · 06-23-2011 07:38 AM

I think it would be nice if there was a way for free/premium players to earn Paragon Points in game.

Eiko-chan · 06-23-2011 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsclark

And for new players without a group, this game is going to suck incredibly bad.

Soloing in this game is awesome - completely unparalleled. No MMO delivers the solo game this game does - none of them are even remotely close. I cannot understand why so many people cannot grasp that concept.

They get /Help. /Help is a pretty awesome channel. They'll be fine.

Ardrea · 06-23-2011 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouded

Thanks and that's a bit disheartening that I will lose my ability to chat and utilize global channels.

Let's say they didn't do CoH-Freedom. And then, at some upcoming date, you stopped paying for the game. You would then have access to zero archetypes, have no powersets, have no costume pieces, have no missions, have no supergroups, have no in-game mail, have no character slots, have no mission architect access, have no inventions, and have access to no channels at all -- not even local and help, much less the global channels. And not have lots of other stuff other stuff I didn't list.

But since they -are- doing CoH-Freedom, should, at some upcoming date, you stop paying for the game, you will continue to have vastly more as a Premium customer instead of a VIP customer. Please look at that list again, and focus on what you would be getting for free that you would not have had at all, instead of what one wouldn't have compared to those who continue to pay monthly subscriptions.

CoH-Freedom is a huge boon to those who have tight budgets and occasionally have to let their subs lapse.

Tormentoso · 06-23-2011 07:59 AM

Any chance we can get a LFT chat channel to go along 'Help'? That would divide the rants and make it easier for new people to find teams. Right now my impression is that being a Free player will be a lonely existence w/o some mentor.

Forbin_Project · 06-23-2011 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsclark

And for new players without a group, this game is going to suck incredibly bad.

No it won't.

Clouded · 06-23-2011 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ardrea

Let's say they didn't do CoH-Freedom. And then, at some upcoming date, you stopped paying for the game. You would then have access to zero archetypes, have no powersets, have no costume pieces, have no missions, have no supergroups, have no in-game mail, have no character slots, have no mission architect access, have no inventions, and have access to no channels at all -- not even local and help, much less the global channels. And not have lots of other stuff other stuff I didn't list.

I'm very aware of the current subscription model. This is all irrelevant when it won't exist any longer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ardrea

But since they -are- doing CoH-Freedom, should, at some upcoming date, you stop paying for the game, you will continue to have vastly more as a Premium customer instead of a VIP customer. Please look at that list again, and focus on what you would be getting for free that you would not have had at all, instead of what one wouldn't have compared to those who continue to pay monthly subscriptions.

CoH-Freedom is a huge boon to those who have tight budgets and occasionally have to let their subs lapse.

Not sure if you know this, but I'm providing feeback on this new feature that is still being tested. Feedback is good.

I'm not so blinded that I don't appreciate all the goodies I will be able to have but I'm also not some CoH Dev-back-patter that doesn't believe in providing negative, constructive feedback.

So, my feedback is that as a previous VIP customer I would like to retain my ability to chat and view my global channels as I do now (or when VIP is rolled out). Whether my feedback is implemented is another story altogether.

Forbin_Project · 06-23-2011 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eiko-chan

Soloing in this game is awesome - completely unparalleled. No MMO delivers the solo game this game does - none of them are even remotely close. I cannot understand why so many people cannot grasp that concept.

They get /Help. /Help is a pretty awesome channel. They'll be fine.

/This.

Forbin_Project · 06-23-2011 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsclark

But even with those things listed, new players are not severely limited in experiencing the game.

New players are not severely limited under the new business plan, just the people who don't want to spend a dime.

If they simply buy the cheapest item in the Paragon Store they are automatically upgraded to a Premium account and get all the benefits a Premium player gets.

Ya gets what ya pay for, TANSTAAFL.

_eeek_ · 06-23-2011 08:17 AM

The big draw of this game isn't the game. It's the people.

You've probably checked out the superhero MMO competition. Both other games have had to scramble to try to make themselves more like CoH. The constant complaint being that they can't team easily, and people can't meet and make new friends, heck, they can't even find their old friends on those games.

This game offers a wonderful community. That's what sets CoX apart, and that's why those new, shiny games keep getting compared (unfavorably, and in their own forums!) to us. Our community. It's not just players, but a dev/management team who listen and really care about this game. Who else has that? Seriously! Can you name any other game?

F2P was the last refuge of a dying game. It isn't any more. The tricky problem is how to avoid having paying customers being driven out of the game by griefers, RMT spammers, and obnoxious kids, while expanding the (paying) player base.

Twoflower · 06-23-2011 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouded

So, my feedback is that as a previous VIP customer I would like to retain my ability to chat and view my global channels as I do now (or when VIP is rolled out). Whether my feedback is implemented is another story altogether.

As a previous VIP customer, you will retain your ability to chat and view your global channels as you do now.

They confirmed in the uSteam chat that global chat, while not included by default for premium players, can be earned in the Paragon Rewards system. Since you've been subscribing for ??? years, you'll earn ??? Rewards, likely including global chat. You'll be fine.

They said the same thing about Masterminds and Controllers, as well... that veterans of the subscription game will likely be getting these for free anyway thanks to their ongoing support translating into Paragon Rewards.

We cool now?

Global @Twoflower / MA Creator & Pro Indie Game Developer.
Mission Architect Works: DIY Laser Moonbase (Dev Choice!), An Internship in the Fine Art of Revenge (2009 MA Award Winner!) and many more! Plus Brand New Arcs for Issue 21!

rsclark · 06-23-2011 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eiko-chan

Soloing in this game is awesome - completely unparalleled. No MMO delivers the solo game this game does - none of them are even remotely close. I cannot understand why so many people cannot grasp that concept.

Mainly because it's not true. They did a great improvement by making fitness inherent, but low level, 1-2 attacks, no vet attacks, lack of inf to buy even the minimally useful TO enhancements, it is going to be largely the game it was 7 years ago. Lots of standing and waiting and whiffing.

Virtually every MMO in existence provides a superior solo experience for low level character even if it abandons that the higher you get. Even back as far as EQ, the low level solo experience was viable and enjoyable, even though it totally disappeared for most characters between levels 6 and 10. If we're looking at levels 1-10, the solo experience in this game is not exceptional in any way compared to most other MMOs. To claim otherwise is a case of looking at the game through rose-colored glasses.

rsclark · 06-23-2011 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forbin_Project

New players are not severely limited under the new business plan, just the people who don't want to spend a dime.

If they simply buy the cheapest item in the Paragon Store they are automatically upgraded to a Premium account and get all the benefits a Premium player gets.

Ya gets what ya pay for, TANSTAAFL.

So what. If their purpose is to "give people what they pay for", then they wouldn't be going free-to-play in the first place. They are advertising. The purpose of the free-to-play model is to get more people to try it out, and then to have those people want to give the company money in exchange for stuff.

So, no matter how much the model succeeds at "giving people what they pay for", if it doesn't also succeed at showing these free people positive and enticing experiences, then it will have failed at it's purpose of attracting new money-bearing people.

You seem more concerned with what is "fair" than with what will actually perform a useful function for the business.

Clouded · 06-23-2011 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twoflower

As a previous VIP customer, you will retain your ability to chat and view your global channels as you do now.

They confirmed in the uSteam chat that global chat, while not included by default for premium players, can be earned in the Paragon Rewards system. Since you've been subscribing for ??? years, you'll earn ??? Rewards, likely including global chat. You'll be fine.

They said the same thing about Masterminds and Controllers, as well... that veterans of the subscription game will likely be getting these for free anyway thanks to their ongoing support translating into Paragon Rewards.

We cool now?

Until I know the costs of global channel unlocks and all the unlocks and can provide my feedback on those items, then I will not be at peace.

Aett_Thorn · 06-23-2011 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsclark

Mainly because it's not true. They did a great improvement by making fitness inherent, but low level, 1-2 attacks, no vet attacks, lack of inf to buy even the minimally useful TO enhancements, it is going to be largely the game it was 7 years ago. Lots of standing and waiting and whiffing.

Virtually every MMO in existence provides a superior solo experience for low level character even if it abandons that the higher you get. Even back as far as EQ, the low level solo experience was viable and enjoyable, even though it totally disappeared for most characters between levels 6 and 10. If we're looking at levels 1-10, the solo experience in this game is not exceptional in any way compared to most other MMOs. To claim otherwise is a case of looking at the game through rose-colored glasses.

Maybe the low level solo experience isn't great compared to other MMOs, but it's not that bad. And certainly, even solo, the level 1-10 experience goes by very quickly. And the level 12-50 experience is great. Whereas in other games I've tried, it's the reverse, where the level 1-10 or so experience is great solo, and then very quickly trails off. And I much prefer the former.

Even then, it's not nearly as bad as it once was for new players. I'd say that levels 10-12 are the worst offenders in the game right now, but with inherent fitness, the early levels are much easier. I almost never run out of endurance now, and by selling every drop I get from level 1-12, I have more than enough to outfit myself in DOs at level 12.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus

Aett_Thorn · 06-23-2011 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsclark

So what. If their purpose is to "give people what they pay for", then they wouldn't be going free-to-play in the first place. They are advertising. The purpose of the free-to-play model is to get more people to try it out, and then to have those people want to give the company money in exchange for stuff.

So, no matter how much the model succeeds at "giving people what they pay for", if it doesn't also succeed at showing these free people positive and enticing experiences, then it will have failed at it's purpose of attracting new money-bearing people.

You seem more concerned with what is "fair" than with what will actually perform a useful function for the business.

What you think will perform a useful function for the business I think would drive away all of the existing players. And that's definitely not a good business model.

Our Devs have learned from this community, and what they've seen from the successful F2P models of DDO and LotRO. I think that they've got a decent handle on what they need to do to find a balance between the free players and the VIPs.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus

Oedipus_Tex · 06-23-2011 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forbin_Project

New players are not severely limited under the new business plan, just the people who don't want to spend a dime.

If they simply buy the cheapest item in the Paragon Store they are automatically upgraded to a Premium account and get all the benefits a Premium player gets.

Ya gets what ya pay for, TANSTAAFL.

I think you are missing the bigger problem.

Now when you are forming a team, a significant number of people who you send tells to will be unable to reply to you.

I predict the Help channel will turn into a LFG channel. Bank on it, even for people who pay, unless there is a change to the plan.

reiella · 06-23-2011 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex

I think you are missing the bigger problem.

Now when you are forming a team, a significant number of people who you send tells to will be unable to reply to you.

I predict the Help channel will turn into a LFG channel. Bank on it, even for people who pay, unless there is a change to the plan.

Likely, but can hope folks can use it as an incentive to start using the in-game LFG system again. Course, as you said, folks [myself for instance], like to ask before inviting, and with a trial you just won't get a response.

Of course, could really hope and see if we get a matchmaking service.

Let's Dance!

gameboy1234 · 06-23-2011 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunbunny

After having been playing on Freedom for awhile I notice that the Help channel over there is filled with LF team/trial/tf already. This can become problematic soon.

I personally am starting to feel that the solution to this is ask the Devs to increase the limits of the global channels. Once the global channels can be made large enough, then the pressure to use things like /hc goes way down.

Larger size global channels also helps other communities in CoH too. I've put a bug in the ear of the Devs about it twice now. I think I'm going to try to keep it on their radar screen. The two things I think the global channels need are:

1. Increase the limits to 200,000+ players.

2. Get "remove inactive players" working correct. This will simplify things for the mods on those channels. (My understanding is that it's broke and doesn't remove old players. If this is working, then ignore this.)

Auroxis · 06-23-2011 09:18 AM

Like I said in the big thread, the hook of the game is in community interaction. Not just playing with a team, but also interacting with the community through forums, local chat, global chat channels, SG chat, and tells.

The gameplay gets you to sit down, open up the game and play for a bit. The community hooks you in and keeps you in front of the PC for hours.

What I hope the devs implement:

1. A sub-forum in the Player Help forum which everyone can access, intended towards helping new players. Premium and Free players don't get signatures, avatars, and their posts don't count towards their post count.

2. Global Chat Channels can be joined by Free players, but they can't talk. This option can be turned on or off by the channel admins. Player caps on global chat channels increased significantly.

3. Free players can join SG's, but they contribute half as much prestige and can't be promoted.

I haven't seen or come up with a flawless solution to the Tell issue, but it isn't as major of an issue as the chat channels. The least worse idea I have is to let free players send tells, but differently tagged tells which can be filtered out separately and don't make a sound when received.

Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
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