The devil in the details: What can go wrong with Freedom {and how to prevent it}
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-06-22 22:20 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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None of those were the reason trial accts were added. They were put in to get new subscribers. Didn't work, so now there's a new income model.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Yes they did.
RMT chat spam dropped to next to nothing. Base raiding by trial accounts stopped completely. RMT Email Spam vanished. RMTers stopped using Trial accounts to transfer billions of Inf between accounts RMTers dtopped using trial accounts to farm high level PVP zones, trials, and TF's RMTers were unable to use trial accounts to abuse AE exploits. All glowing successes. |
[QUOTE=Dr_MechanoEU;3703861]The main thing they need to do is make sure that gamers as a whole see the Freedom thing in a positive light, not just on Massively or PC gamer...the word needs to be out there, everywhere, it needs to be challenging the preconceptions of why subscription games go Free to Play.
Switching from Subscriber to Free to play (as I've said elsewhere it IS free to play and I wish they would stop trying to really obviously use marketting spin to try to make it sound otherwise, is seen as a desperation move by the gaming population at large, a move to try and grab as much money from people as they can in a short space of time or lose everything.
Sorry but it is, every single MMO that has done this kind of move has done so purely out of desperation,
Second, my response to the question of whether the switch is a desperation move is here.
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Somehow, being called the most intelligent thing since baked dough doesn't sound like all that much of a compliment.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
The only time I see post count mentioned is when some snowflake can't stand that people aren't blowing sunshine up his/her backside and telling him/her that their post is the most intelligent thing since sliced bread.
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I once had a very patient player do this to me.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
There are at least 3 layers of protection for the SG there.
1. Don't invite strangers 2. Don't put valuables in the bins 3. Don't give new members access to the bins Just how common was this, exactly? |
He joined our SG, played seriously for about 3 weeks; enough to gain promotion.
Then "trusted player" invited a "friend", and vouched for him.
"Friend" was given promotion sooner than usual due to the voucher.
"Friend" raided enhacement & salvage bins of all the good stuff.
Then "friend" AND "trusted player" both left the SG... never to be heard from again.
This used to be quite a common practice, especially before salvage bins had individual access permissions.
Now, I don't invite people unless I have known them (as much as is possible online) for considerably more than 3 weeks. And, certain salvage bins are "gated".
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
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This is why I suggested that free players be allowed to enter SG's, but will not be eligible for promotions. Also, seeing as he had 3 weeks invested in the SG, it seems like limiting trial players away from SG's would not have helped stop that particular theft.
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Originally Posted by Impish Kat
I once had a very patient player do this to me.
He joined our SG, played seriously for about 3 weeks; enough to gain promotion. Then "trusted player" invited a "friend", and vouched for him. "Friend" was given promotion sooner than usual due to the voucher. "Friend" raided enhacement & salvage bins of all the good stuff. Then "friend" AND "trusted player" both left the SG... never to be heard from again. This used to be quite a common practice, especially before salvage bins had individual access permissions. Now, I don't invite people unless I have known them (as much as is possible online) for considerably more than 3 weeks. And, certain salvage bins are "gated". . |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
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Originally Posted by Roderick
Fixed. That limitation already exists for trial accounts, and the fix for the problem you're worried about is already in place.
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And this facilitates a paid customer getting a team faster exactly how? You could have avoided the problem by, I don't know, using a channel everyone can talk on.
And again how is a trial account, which cuts off somewhere around level 14 or so, in any way comparable to a free player able to access an estimated 80% of the game?
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Originally Posted by Beastyle
A bit of clarification about point #1, Free and Premium players can use the /help channel. That will be open to everyone. One of the things that's great about the City of Heroes community is the willingness of our players to assist others; we want all players to have access to that.
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As someone who frequently lists himself as a 'helper' I strongly suggest that you start Moderating the Help channel then. As it stands it's about 90% random chatter and junk and about 10% people asking for help. If the new players are going to get any help from the Help channel then the folks who use it for random chatter now should have to take themselves to another channel.
Just saying...
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Or the devs can leave it as it is which requires no additional work and accomplishes the same thing cuz if they can't join an SG they can't be promoted.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
This is why I suggested that free players be allowed to enter SG's, but will not be eligible for promotions. Also, seeing as he had 3 weeks invested in the SG, it seems like limiting trial players away from SG's would not have helped stop that particular theft.
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Win/Win
Edit: Also just after the Super Leader rank went live there were a few disputes where a couple trusted leaders stole SG's when they got automatically promoted by being the last/first person to logon/off. And there was one case where the new Super Leader kicked everyone from the SG and then quit himself so everything in the base was deleted.
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Not letting new players join social networks is a win for you?
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Or the devs can leave it as it is which requires no additional work and accomplishes the same thing cuz if they can't join an SG they can't be promoted.
Win/Win |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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Unless you have some sort of intimate knowledge on how the coding for SG promotions works (by toon vs. by global)... And considering that base/SG folks have been asking for "promo by global" for a long time... I'm gonna guess that this is not feasible.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
This is why I suggested that free players be allowed to enter SG's, but will not be eligible for promotions.
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Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
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I was wondering if anyone would catch how I worded that. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Somehow, being called the most intelligent thing since baked dough doesn't sound like all that much of a compliment.
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New players can join social networks. They just have to prove they won't abuse the privilege by making an investment in the game: either an investment of time or an investment of money. Once they've put down the security deposit, the doors to the social networks start to open.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
Not letting new players join social networks is a win for you?
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Not making the devs do work to accomplish a task that whose end result already exists in the game is a win/win for me. That means they can dedicate their time and resources on something else that isn't in the game yet.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Not letting new players join social networks is a win for you?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
New players can join social networks. They just have to prove they won't abuse the privilege by making an investment in the game: either an investment of time or an investment of money. Once they've put down the security deposit, the doors to the social networks start to open.
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Sorry, I fail to see the logic in making someone pay to be able to talk to people. To experience new content, yes they should definitely pay. To talk to their friends and potential friends in-game? Nope, they should be able to do that regardless.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
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Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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And I don't see the logic in giving unlimited access to people that aren't subscribing to the game.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
Sorry, I fail to see the logic in making someone pay to be able to talk to people. To experience new content, yes they should definitely pay. To talk to their friends and potential friends in-game? Nope, they should be able to do that regardless.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
Sorry, I fail to see the logic in making someone pay to be able to talk to people. To experience new content, yes they should definitely pay. To talk to their friends and potential friends in-game? Nope, they should be able to do that regardless.
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I kind of agree with you but from a different angle.
I think it should be within the perks of a each player to decide whether free2players can contact him or her.
Consider current scenario: people standing in Peregrine, or wherever, broadcasting a team announcement. Why do this currently? Because anyone who hears it can respond in some way. Now where we're headed: a significant portion of people who might have responded can't. Solution? Do your broadcasting where people can actually reply. Which is the Help channel.
It's possible there is another solution in the works, but making communication more difficult just makes communication more difficult. It does me no service at all to limit another player's ability to contact me if that is not what I actually wanted in the first place. Ditto the fact that all these extra people running around theoretically mean more peoplle to group with but I have no way of organizing it without notifying God and the Help channel.
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I never said I wanted to give free players unlimited access. I suggested giving them limited access to SG's, limited access to global channels, and limited access to tells. Instead of absolutely no access which you seem to prefer.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
And I don't see the logic in giving unlimited access to people that aren't subscribing to the game.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I kind of agree with you but from a different angle. I think it should be within the perks of a each player to decide whether free2players can contact him or her. Consider current scenario: people standing in Peregrine, or wherever, broadcasting a team announcement. Why do this currently? Because anyone who hears it can respond in some way. Now where we're headed: a significant portion of people who might have responded can't. Solution? Do your broadcasting where people can actually reply. Which is the Help channel. It's possible there is another solution in the works, but making communication more difficult just makes communication more difficult. It does me no service at all to limit another player's ability to contact me if that is not what I actually wanted in the first place. Ditto the fact that all these extra people running around theoretically mean more peoplle to group with but I have no way of organizing it with notifying God and the Help channel. |
I made some suggestions in an earlier post, over here. I'd be glad to get your input on them, particularly the Tell suggestion as that one hasn't been brought up before.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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whoa..... sending tells to strangers to form a team. I don't think I've done that. Ever. Explain to me where I'm going to experience a problem?|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I think you are missing the bigger problem.
Now when you are forming a team, a significant number of people who you send tells to will be unable to reply to you. |
Sure, plenty of people do, but plenty don't. So it's clearly not a universal problem. Whether it will be a "bigger" problem remains to be seen.
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Simplistic and nonsensical question. You seem to be assuming that meeting someone in real life DOES let you know if you can trust them or not.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Which goes right back to what I said. How do you knopw you can trust someone you've never met in real life?
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Both in real life and online, you use your judgement. Yes, that will result in some SG's getting robbed. Guess what, people get robbed in real life by people they trust EVERY SINGLE DAY.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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I would like it if it was possible for free acounts to reply to a tell. Failing that, the automated, 'cant talk back' is ok.
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Originally Posted by Roderick
Fixed. That limitation already exists for trial accounts, and the fix for the problem you're worried about is already in place.
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I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
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Well, the new players are going to need to use it to form groups, so you can probably count on that dropping to around 1% people actually using it for help. Water always follows the easiest path.
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Originally Posted by Comicsluvr
As someone who frequently lists himself as a 'helper' I strongly suggest that you start Moderating the Help channel then. As it stands it's about 90% random chatter and junk and about 10% people asking for help. If the new players are going to get any help from the Help channel then the folks who use it for random chatter now should have to take themselves to another channel.
Just saying... |
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Doesn't fix the problem of how I'm supposed to get them in a group with me.
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Originally Posted by Roderick
Fixed. That limitation already exists for trial accounts, and the fix for the problem you're worried about is already in place.
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It was commented that "This player is not receiving tells from free customers" is too off-putting and could end up being worse than no tell access at all. Though I'm not sure if I agree with that, it's a valid concern.|
Originally Posted by tanstaafl
I would like it if it was possible for free acounts to reply to a tell. Failing that, the automated, 'cant talk back' is ok.
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And only being able to reply to a tell is not that good for people who want to respond to LFG broadcasts or global chats(should they get access to those).
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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Originally Posted by rsclark
Doesn't fix the problem of how I'm supposed to get them in a group with me.
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Based on the current suggested setup the only thing I can think of is to send a /tell that says something like "Interested in a level whatever team doing radios in Kings Row? You can reply to me using the Help channel if you need."
IMO people (not you) need to stop thinking of this as a freebie player getting something they didn't pay for versus a game environment question of what will happen when 1/3rd or more of the playerbase can't communicate back to you. Maybe I'm overestimating how many free players we get but if the population increase is less than that it probably means this free to play business didn't work out as planned.
Except for how Help will be used.
You mean the trial accounts that cut off at like level 14? Because so many teams are made or busted by whether they can find Brutes and Scrappers without mezz protection?
I don't see how you can reasonably argue that an influx of players running around at level 30, 40, and 50 who are not able to respond to tells or globals is going to be a postive change for anyone. Your original argument was that people buy what they pay for. But this affects everyone, unless you are trying to say that people who pay have no interest in teaming with people who don't.
People who pay have a vested interest in teaming up. Which is why they're going to just flood the Help channel as a workaround along with all the people who don't pay, because that is where they will have the best chance of a response.