Still Sexism in costume choices? Really?
By
Adar_ICT,
Posted on: 2011-06-02 05:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Heck: I spent three months working with BaB to make sure female animations weren't sometimes slower.** You want to talk sexist: in certain corner cases female characters actually did less damage due to this anomaly.|
Originally Posted by Sumpfkraut
Are the animations really that different that it would cause clipping?
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Of course, its hard to blame this on genuine sexism when the same problem cropped up just as often for fliers. I don't play enough male characters to know just how different the animations visually appear through experience, but I did analyze them very carefully at one time and I know there are some instances when they are different in actual fact. How dramatic that is for the purposes of clipping and such is something I'm less knowledgeable about.
Still, I did my part for gender equality. Now everyone hits like a girl.
** Not his fault: all of them dated from before BaB's time.
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Remind me why you're not a dev again?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Heck: I spent three months working with BaB to make sure female animations weren't sometimes slower.** You want to talk sexist: in certain corner cases female characters actually did less damage due to this anomaly.
Of course, its hard to blame this on genuine sexism when the same problem cropped up just as often for fliers. I don't play enough male characters to know just how different the animations visually appear through experience, but I did analyze them very carefully at one time and I know there are some instances when they are different in actual fact. How dramatic that is for the purposes of clipping and such is something I'm less knowledgeable about. Still, I did my part for gender equality. Now everyone hits like a girl. ** Not his fault: all of them dated from before BaB's time. |
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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They can't afford her I believe was the reason.
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Remind me why you're not a dev again?
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Let's Dance!
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She could very well still be a dev, just not for this game.|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Remind me why you're not a dev again?
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I believe her standard reason for why she isn't a developer for this game is because she doesn't want to be. It would limit her posting ability, at the least.
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What clubs have you been to?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Actually, there's very little in the costume creator that looks like real lingerie - it's more like extreme clubwear.
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Art team's idea of some random heavenly powers to help Prometheus. Notice a trend?
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When your inspiration for artwork in general is from the comic world, it's inherently going to be "sexist" (whatever that means). Google some random heroes and heroines and you'll understand exactly why they design the way they do.
Trying to project how you would design something onto a product that someone else has control over is just going to lead to frustration. They've chosen an art direction. I'd rather see men in coats and women in skirts and get some things that are visually different, rather than everyone running around in coats. I'm sure the art dept would rather design gender-specific items rather than three versions of the same thing as well.
Loose --> not tight.
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One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
Zombie Man, she said "little in the costume creator" not "nothing in the costume creator."
If you want to contradict that argument, it's necessary to show that that is more than "a little" in the costume creator that looks like actual lingerie. Which is to say, one picture will not refute her argument.
And while that does look like underwear, it's not as frilly as I expect something called "lingerie" to be.
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To be fair, that is very, very little.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
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Also, you've been having fun with some sliders there.
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So, you're saying you're loathe to cry sexism when certain devs say very explicitly that the reason certain pieces, like kilts, are precluded from a certain sex (male) is because of the sex of the model?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm loathe to cry sexism automatically in this case.
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Was that not a sexist decision and statement on their part?
Now, does that translate into sexist hiring decisions* or sexism in the way they treat people in real life? I doubt it highly. And that's not the accusation I'm making. But here, in this case with that costume decision, with those devs, it is sexism.
It seems people who argue against any perceived sexism or want to avoid it never seem to address what they think of the very public kilts-ain't-for-men policy (which, of course, was overturned later on). I mean, it's a very clear case. On the record. Any thoughts about it? Wasn't that sexism?
*Though for a while there under Cryptic, there seemed to be a bit of a glass ceiling for women developers, which Melissa broke through eventually.
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Hmmm... Now ya see, Zombie Man, if you're tryin' ta help us get those awesome coats on women, yer not making a good case. These ain't remotely comparable.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
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What'cha need to do is make two characters of the three frames then doll'em up in the Samurai armor, DO NOT MESS WITH THE SCALES.
What you might notice is that female samurai armor is... smaller, daintier. The shoulders are laughable compared to the men's, and the hip plates cover much less, the chest piece also doesn't seem quite as robust/protective as it is for men. Try it for yourself and see. (Though to be honest, I haven't seen what samurai armor looks like on huge frames.)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Your arguing that because the comic industry is sexist, therefor, so should a game 'based on' the genre. Did I get that right? Sexism exists, therefor, it should be consciously perpetuated?|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
When your inspiration for artwork in general is from the comic world, it's inherently going to be "sexist" (whatever that means).
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Zombie Man, she said "little in the costume creator" not "nothing in the costume creator."
If you want to contradict that argument, it's necessary to show that that is more than "a little" in the costume creator that looks like actual lingerie. Which is to say, one picture will not refute her argument. |
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| To be fair, that is very, very little. |
And, shall we bring up fashion horse of Pocket D again?
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That's because it's more for show for us, as we don't make such a song and dance about it when we get hurt, so armor isn't as important.|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
What you might notice is that female samurai armor is... smaller, daintier.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
What clubs have you been to?
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Art team's idea of some random heavenly powers to help Prometheus. Notice a trend?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Also, I would have to live near Mountain View and treat all of you guys nicely on the forums. Inconceivable.
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Originally Posted by reiella
They can't afford her I believe was the reason.
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This... I... What the... I have no words for the levels of stupid in this post.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's because it's more for show for us, as we don't make such a song and dance about it when we get hurt, so armor isn't as important
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Should I have put a |
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
This... I... What the... I have no words for the levels of stupid in this post.
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on the end?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
They should really have contests to allow players to design the new NPCs....
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Well, Austin wouldn't have been so bad |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Also, I would have to live near Mountain View and treat all of you guys nicely on the forums. Inconceivable.
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.And you could always go the geko route and ignore us all because we're stupid
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Let's Dance!
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By "this case" I meant the case we're talking about here, not the case you mention tangentially above.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
So, you're saying you're loathe to cry sexism when certain devs say very explicitly that the reason certain pieces, like kilts, are precluded from a certain sex (male) is because of the sex of the model?
Was that not a sexist decision and statement on their part? Now, does that translate into sexist hiring decisions* or sexism in the way they treat people in real life? I doubt it highly. And that's not the accusation I'm making. But here, in this case with that costume decision, with those devs, it is sexism. |
In any case, I would consider that less sexist, and more silly, because kilts are actually worn by men.
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| It seems people who argue against any perceived sexism or want to avoid it never seem to address what they think of the very public kilts-ain't-for-men policy (which, of course, was overturned later on). I mean, it's a very clear case. On the record. Any thoughts about it? Wasn't that sexism? |
You really can't talk about artistic decisions being sexist without ultimately pointing the finger at the designers, and ultimately at the specific one(s) that made the decision and the artwork, and call them sexist explicitly. If you're going to do it, do it. I'm not fond of the vague cloud of sexism style assertions that seem to want to declare a bloodless war on chauvinism. Decisions aren't sexist; artwork isn't sexist. People are. If we're getting sexist artwork, its only because that sexism manages to survive and thrive from artists to designers to producers. A lot of people have to explicitly say yes for something to eventually get delivered to us in-game.
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[SigmundFreud]Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.[/SigmundFreud]
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I don't have a good explanation for the cigar, though.
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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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I never said that all costume options should be available to both genders. You and I actually have about the same viewpoint it sounds like.
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Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
Disagree completely. Your proposed policy would be more flawed than the one they're using.
If you spend the time to make "shoulder kittens" universal for all models- something that has VERY little widespread appeal- rather than an asset that DOES have wider appeal to the male side, you're wasting resources. (I wouldn't mind a shoulder kitten, but that's another story) What I do wish the devs WOULD address is possibly consider making more 'general use" versions of some of the more interesting pieces coming out. Things like the "magical bolero" are nice, but very specific in their style because of the level of detail. |
I don't actually think sexism is at work here, or at least nothing but the sort of institutionalized undercurrent sexism lurking in the culture in general. If I thought the devs were a bunch of leering jerks, reveling in their ability to force people to make scantily-clad club bunnies, I wouldn't bother posting. What I do think is at work, or at least what I hope, is just a sort of unfortunate combination of genre conventions and a general ignorance of what some groups of players want. There's no larger conspiracy at work that's keeping female toons from simultaneously having cigars, cool coats and an actual t-shirt texture, but whatever the reasons actually are, they don't and it really frustrates the hell out of me.
I don't know if it's laziness, lack of interest, missed opportunity, statistical analysis or secret instructions from the moon people, but I'd like to see it change. If bringing it up can help do that, or at least help someone remember it the next time costumes come up at a design meeting, then good.
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Corrected for the startling truth!!!
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Originally Posted by KidCrisis
I don't know if it's laziness, lack of interest, missed opportunity, statistical analysis or secret instructions from the moon Nazis, but I'd like to see it change. If bringing it up can help do that, or at least help someone remember it the next time costumes come up at a design meeting, then good.
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I would suggest that it is slightly less work in the sense of "don't have design and storyboard the object before modeling it in the 3d program". I doubt that is a significant portion of time.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I think that's a bit of an exaggeration where one isn't justified. I'm all for more cross-over pieces myself in the general case, but the diversity issue really comes down mechanically to something that was stated earlier: there really isn't any such thing as "porting" most costume pieces: they have to be created almost from scratch to fit the appropriate body models and animations. So if you are going to make, say, a jacket for male, female, and huge, you're really making three jackets that just happen to look superficially identical.
Because of this fact, the creation of costume pieces is somewhat independent effort-wise. So suppose you're someone on the art team making costumes for the male rig. You have a list of stuff you'd like to do, but whenever someone makes something for the female rig, you're told you *have* to make a version of this thing yourself. Conversely, whenever you actually find the time to make something original, the person making costumes for the female rig is given the same instruction: no matter what you want to work on, you have to make a comparable analog piece first. |
If the issue was that the art people would rather make new than port, then why is it that the male and huge options are exactly the same? We have three different models here, and for two of them, they never differentiate, so it's pretty obvious that the gender of the model as a creative decision (and less a technical decision) is the basis for their choices.
I also find it incredibly weird that, given all the demand for the Baron coat for the Female rig, that the very next time they add a similar long coat to the game, they choose once again not to add it to the female model, and instead add two different coats that cover jack all. So it isn't as much a case of "we don't have time to give women a coat", and more a case of "we want to give them a coat, so we'll give them this". Again, there was a creative decision made somewhere along the line.
That creative decision is the thing we're casting our doubts upon.
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I'm not too worried that the artists are going to have their feelings hurt. I'm certain they have a realistic view about what they are paid to do. I'll bet you a buck that the artists would have a ball designing a really fabulous coat for the ladies.
We've been told outright that the allocation of manpower is based on economy. It's got very little to do with artistic freedom and a pile of artists chomping at the bit to make two fairly similar male jackets and as many female corsets as time allows.
I realize that this isn't a line of reasoning that flatters the game or the development team. I realize it's an uncomfortable topic. But it's there, and there are quite a few of us paying customers who aren't too happy about it.
I don't think it needs to be talked into the ground, I think the sexism is really pretty obvious, some people mind, some don't. People who want the jackets for females should be comfortable letting the devs know that. Don't worry that you'll hurt someone's feelings, we're all grownups here and this is what feedback threads are for. If the devs can tell we'd like these jackets, then they'll make them. This is one of those beautiful issues where you can be desirous of something cool /and/ help make the world an infinitesimally better place for young women to grow up in.
Absolute costume parity ain't happening. We know that. But the jacket thing has struck a nerve, it's too cool to trade for sleeves, however cute and puffy. And we really have had a few too many skimpy/wimpy girl pieces of late. Sure the development team is pretty good about things like that compared to industry standards, and this is why I think they'll listen to us.
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What do you do? Make the armor for the Huge, a robe for the Male, and a tunic/mini-dress for the Female? Or a robe for all three?
The first sounds like 'the most diversity'. Except if you wanted to play a female warrior: "Wait, in order to be a warrior and have armor, I have to be not only Male but freakin' Huge?!"
The diversity of the costume choices gets *limited* by gender. There are two axis of diversity that costume pieces fall under: by model and by distinction from other costume pieces. By making the same piece for all three models, you lose the ability to make more pieces that are distinct from other pieces. By making more pieces that are more distinct from others, you don't have time port them to other Models and so you lose the number of pieces that the Models have access to.
And when you take the latter route, you create Model envy... and disparity, especially if such choices are influenced by 1950's mores of what's appropriate for the male and female genders... which they are and have been, self-admittedly by the Devs.
Now, is the Male model cigar so incompatible with the Female model that it has to be re-created from scratch?
If I were the devs, one thing I would do is actually datamine which costume parts were actually used, relative to their distribution within the game. If I saw a disproportionate amount of, say, female jackets worn in female characters then I'd consider making more costume options of that vein.
But if I were to datamine that the more "sexy" or revealing costumes were the ones disproportionately used (disproportionate in the sense that their usage rate was higher than their relative percentage of all costume options) then in fact I would conclude those options were actually *under represented* relative to what the players actually want. I don't believe in social engineering here: its too radioactive an area.
Nowhere do I say I'm not in favor of more cross-over options or not in favor of more conservative costume options for females (I actually said the opposite). What I object to is tossing the bogeyman of misogyny cavalierly. There are actual flesh and blood women on the art team making these costume options, and don't believe they are selling out their gender to work at Paragon Studios.
I don't have a good explanation for the cigar, though.
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