Give MM Upgrades the same treatment as AoE buffs
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-05-25 17:44 in Suggestions and Ideas
Sure, why not?
MMs have to be handled with the unique needs of their AT.
On the one hand, I "get" having the costs for the upgrades. And I'm ok with them, usually, once I get two End Reduction IOs in there.
On the other, blasters (for instance) don't really incur an END cost before they can go blasting things. Tanks/scrappers/brutes turn on shields, sure, but they don't take that much of the END bar. A MM, by comparison, is getting hit at least twice (Pet summon and buff.)
I'd say it's worth looking at dropping that END cost. Yes, MMs are powerful (post-32, generally,) but that's still punitive.
Considering you're still paying the cost of the henchman summon (end/recharge/activation/animation), and you'd still be paying the non-endurance costs of the upgrade power, I don't see why not.
Plus the heavy endurance drain does weird things due to the varied endurance consumption of different MM secondaries.
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And considering how fragile pets are in the Incarnate trials...
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Originally Posted by reiella
Until I see something that states to the contrary, going to assume VK is right
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It's not even the balance thing really, it's that the logic behind making the pet buffs cost way more end than they used to when they were single target was that you can buff six pets at once with one power so obviously it should cost more than it used to for the added convenience. Now they've announced they're changing most other single target buffs in the same way but without the same increase in endurance cost, and that doesn't really add up. To be fair they should lower the end costs on MM pet buffs, at least a little if not outright back to their old costs.
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I'd support it IF pet upgrades only lasted for four minutes. Ok, I don't actually want that but I do think the high end costs are nice to help limit the pet spam capability of MMs.
So: /unsigned.
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this is pretty much how I feel.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I'd support it IF pet upgrades only lasted for four minutes. Ok, I don't actually want that but I do think the high end costs are nice to help limit the pet spam capability of MMs.
So: /unsigned. |
As is MM's are getting a pretty serious buff since their shield types also are getting upgraded... so now players with Therm-Rad or Force Field sets can more easily protect their bots.
Doesn't really help my Ninja/TA with the small fact that her Genin like to fall over dead. A lot. And get resummoned.
Or that in Incarnate trials, defeated players can quickly move back into the action. Except for Masterminds. Who have to resummon, buff, rest and then go.
/Signed.
How does one pet spam on a Mastermind when the pet powers themselves have fairly significant recharge times? Why on Earth are the upgrade powers being balanced against what another power can't actually do?
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I just think it needs to be re-looked at!
At least lower the endurance cost some.
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i agree with this thread and quoted above is my reason|
Originally Posted by Von Krieger
And considering how fragile pets are in the Incarnate trials...
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mm pets are insanely fragile unless you have a specific powerset combo (bot/ff, bot/trap, ect that can soft cap all the pets no problem)
even non-incarnate mishs i usually have to resummon pets constantly since most normal tfs almost guarenteed 1-2+ pets are going to die in a fight, and if your fighting an AV, very very likely that half or more of them are gonna die from the aoes before the debuffs set in
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Fine, pet upgrades only last four minutes, but from now on, pets are immune to damage that whole four minutes.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I'd support it IF pet upgrades only lasted for four minutes. Ok, I don't actually want that but I do think the high end costs are nice to help limit the pet spam capability of MMs.
So: /unsigned. |
On a more serious note...
Pets drop a whole lot faster than their summon recharge can keep up anyway. Especially in the new content. So in many cases, yes- those buffs are gone in less than four minutes. Sometimes the pet dies before the second buff is even applied! That means 80% endurance has just been flushed for nothing.
It's only fair that if everyone else can buff for no extra cost, MM's should be able to, too.
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"Pet spam?" |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I'd support it IF pet upgrades only lasted for four minutes. Ok, I don't actually want that but I do think the high end costs are nice to help limit the pet spam capability of MMs.
So: /unsigned. |
This isn't early COH. We can't cram enough recharge in to have five Rockies or fifteen sets of fire imps. Pets - and *upgrading* the pets - are the point of MMs. The pets already have recharge and END costs, and are often squishy as heck.
And of course, no other AT has to do the MM summon - buff before actually being useful. Blasters don't have to wait, get a power ready, buff it, buff it again, then have it finally at full (or even nominal) power. Controllers and DOminators don't - fire up and go for the pet. They've got plenty of other things in *both* the primary and secondary to do if the pet isn't up. Nobody else is as dependent on the pets as the Mastermind - for obvious reasons.
If any pet comes close to being "spammable" - and this is by design, as it's so squishy - it'd be the Tier 1s. Of course if any T1 is still out there, it reduces the number of those resummoned - unlike Controller pets, typically - so if you "spam" early you may well still have one getting killed (so you'd be at less than full strength *even faster.*
Sorry, I can't buy "pet spam" as a serious reason against.
Recharge up to 30 seconds. End use dropped to 10.
Seems like a workable solution to me. Global recharge would speed it up and could slot for recharge as well if you really wanted to buff that often.
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And this is, IMO, the biggest reason. For some bizarre* reason MM secondaries cost a LOT more End the Corruptor secondaries. If your henchies die in the fighting and you've been using your secondary at all you will probably not be able to resummon them and buff them.|
Originally Posted by Von Krieger
And considering how fragile pets are in the Incarnate trials...
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And, as has been pointed out, that's the MM's HP that's being summoned. Many powersets get a self heal in combat, but none of them eat the entire End bar.
*Yes, I get the reason. The theory is that the MM's henchies are doing the fighting, so to balance the MM's End usage they are heavily penalized by secondary powerset usage. Unfortunately they are also heavily penalized by summoning and rebuilding, so I strongly feel the devs are "double dipping" against the MM's ability to fight effectively.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I'd support it IF pet upgrades only lasted for four minutes. Ok, I don't actually want that but I do think the high end costs are nice to help limit the pet spam capability of MMs.
So: /unsigned. |
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Originally Posted by je_saist
this is pretty much how I feel.
As is MM's are getting a pretty serious buff since their shield types also are getting upgraded... so now players with Therm-Rad or Force Field sets can more easily protect their bots. |
That makes no sense. I can only have 6 pets out at a time. That is it. End of.
Those pets are;
-A large part of my shielding and health, which is pitiful without them
-The vast majority of an MMs damage output
-The entire POINT of my Primary set
Blasters and Scrappers don't 80% drain their end bar just so they can start attacking again. Tankers don't have to be drained just to taunt stuff. No other AT is penalised like this.
And, for your information, upgrades rarely last one minute, let alone four, on an Itrial. With the Praetorians higher accuracy and love of spammed AoEs, pets die in absolute droves.
Oh, and what part of being a Bots/Traps MM should make me jump for joy with the new buffs?
The New buffs serve the exact same purpose as the original MM change did; QoL. Only difference is, THEY get to keep their ST endurance cost. WE do not. And that is wrong.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Quick question, what's this about?
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
So, AoE shield buffs and such are now being converted from ST to AoE with no change in endurance cost.
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http://www.cityofheroes.com/news/gam...scend_ove.html
And
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...03#post3656003
Basically, the four-minute-shield powers many buff sets have are turned from singe-target to targeted-AoE without an increase in their endurance cost and (presumably) recharge. Ignoring the issues raised about this, since this isn't the thread about it, it puts a different light on the change of the Mastermind Upgrade powers.
Now my only Mastermind so far is Bots/Traps, one of my favorite toons, so I never quite had issues with my henchies dropping like flies every five seconds, but dead henchies are still a constant reality to every Mastermind. Nothing frustrates me more than losing a Drone or Protector bot, resummoning it, but feeling I cannot possibly upgrade them to actually be useful again because I need to use my secondary powers. That, or do upgrade them but then I barely have enough to drop a Poison Trap and then my Leadership toggles drain the rest of my endurance and they drop and it will take five million years to retoggle them because their animation is soooo loooong.
Basically, the biggest issue is that it urges Masterminds to take a break between mobs to reupgrade everyone in a game that encourages a very fast pace from mob to mob. Reduce the endurance cost and I can keep myself in the battle! With the way Masterminds work I will probably lose another Battle Drone anyway and keep fighting with just two anyway, it just means those two will be fully upgraded instead of just one.
If that breaks the game, it just means Masterminds were broken before the change from ST to AoE, and I do not believe that for one second.
TL;DR: /signed.
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I can’t really agree with this suggestion entirely and your comparisons don’t really add up.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Blasters and Scrappers don't 80% drain their end bar just so they can start attacking again. Tankers don't have to be drained just to taunt stuff. No other AT is penalised like this.
The New buffs serve the exact same purpose as the original MM change did; QoL. Only difference is, THEY get to keep their ST endurance cost. WE do not. And that is wrong. |
MM’s are really just high caliber delayed Dot dealers when it comes down too it. They fire off their power and that power does damage over its long and non-self-terminating life.
The difference between MM’s and blasters/scrappers is that MM’s hit build-up after the main power, not before. Blaster/scrapper end use is also incremented differently and more spread out but just as debilitating when not controlled properly. (I know there are more, but these are the ones relevent to the discussion I think)
You can’t really make a comparison against Tanker taunt as it is just 1 power, not a set and I think gauntlet defines a tanker more than taunt (IMHO).
Your statement that no other AT is penalized like MM’s is kinda invalid. There is no other AT set-up to work even close to how MM’s do.
All that aside, the Devs have kinda tried to go in two directions at once with the 2 changes (MM upgrade and AOE buff). It is bound to create this kind of annoyance in players without more explanation or insight into what they are thinking.
IMO they should split the difference on both changes. Drop the MM end use a bit (but not all the way back) and raise the end levels on the now AOE buffs. It makes sense gameplay wise to me.
I think the comparison is valid. The majority of an MMs damage ouput, personal health and shielding all comes their primary set and pets. The resummon and upgrade powers cost the same huge ammount wether you are summoning all your pets or three or just one. While some might argue various reasons ("Oh, you don't need all your pets out at all times!") I will counter that by saying that, to be most effective, an MM works best when all pets are out, doing damage and deflecting damge via bodyguard/shields/etc.
On ITrials especially, where MM pets come off a lot worse against high accuracy, high damage, AoE spamming Praetorians, reducing the rediculously high end cost would be a massive buff. Given the AoE Buff changes are cited as being QoL and aimed at Trials, I fail to see any reason to not give the same treatment to MMs so that;
1) inevitable pet death and loss of usefullness is viably counterable
2) They can fight with full damage output and Hp like other ATs
3) They don't have to pick between Primary OR Secondary and can instead use both, making it more likely they can be of use and get better chances at the participation table (which evidence suggests is biased versus MMs)
TL;DR
Either MMs should get reduced costs or Fenders/Corrs/Trollers should have to deal with increased end costs two. There is absolutely no difference between AoE buffs that make the player/team more effective.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I would find this an acceptable compromise.
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Originally Posted by Aluminum_Dave
All that aside, the Devs have kinda tried to go in two directions at once with the 2 changes (MM upgrade and AOE buff). It is bound to create this kind of annoyance in players without more explanation or insight into what they are thinking.
IMO they should split the difference on both changes. Drop the MM end use a bit (but not all the way back) and raise the end levels on the now AOE buffs. It makes sense gameplay wise to me. |
You can have my no-extra-end AoE buffs when I get your can-walk-through-your-own-pets. 
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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Nev-!|
Originally Posted by Vanden
You can have my no-extra-end AoE buffs when I get your can-walk-through-your-own-pets.
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Oh...fair enough. Because I can't
I'm being serious here, I still very frequently get stuck on my pets, others pets, all MMs. I sure as heck can't pass through them
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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WELL WHAT HAPPENED! I liked that!
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
So, AoE shield buffs and such are now being converted from ST to AoE with no change in endurance cost.
This means I can have my old MM upgrade end cost back, right? After all, they are the two powers that actually let my Primary function at a decent level, buff the pets that make up the majority of my othewise pitiful healthbar and provide nearly the entirity of my firepower.
There is no case for turning the Shield buffs into AoE with no endurance penalty and leaving MM upgrade languishing where they are, draining 80% of your end even if you only need to buff twore-summoned pets mid fight.