Give MM Upgrades the same treatment as AoE buffs
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-05-25 17:44 in Suggestions and Ideas
You lied to me Techbot. My Thugs MM just ran through his thugs with nary a collision.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
Bots are different.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I think I figured it out: Devs don't hate Villains... Devs hate Masterminds! 
Anywho, yes, I totally agree with the suggestion in the OP. Masterminds have enough problems to deal with being the anchor point for a bunch of suicidal pets. Given what's now being made available for all other buff sets, there's no reason to continue punishing their endurance bars.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
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Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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I'm half wondering if there's some sort of queueing system for pet commands that's getting stuck - I've had that happen, where I'd told them to attack something, they didn't, told them "fine, passive/follow" or something - and THEN they'd run off. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Seriously? MMs have had issues for some time now. Ever since Demons my Bots have progressively got more and more stupid. They insist on running into melee range to punc hstuff en masse, which never happened to all the pets before Demons came out. Sure, you'd get one drone or P-Bot that decided it was Sparkticus and went off on a Rambo, but that was at least liveable with. And it wasn't all the time.
And then theres the fact I ordered my pets to stand still and shoot stuff on the Additionals team on a BAF, and half of them suddenly took off towards Siege's porch. No, I'm not kidding. And yes, I do know how to control them. Believe me, I was mashing every macro for passive and follow that I have, and I ended up having to destroy them myself to summon some more. And then the OTHER half ran off! |
If so, perhaps that needs clearing...
*shrug* I have no idea. Just throwing a random thought out there.
Would love it it they made my Medic's Stimulant an AoE. Even if they just kept it to the caster and the pets that he summoned. Wouldn't have to worry about those couple of seconds to when i notice my force field generator blows up to casting a new one. 
Pet upgrades are basically attacks; they indirectly damage your enemies by making your pets stronger. AoE attacks cost more end than single-target attacks, but the same is not generally true of buffs. And that's why I think it's not likely to change, and makes sense as it is.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
You lied to me Techbot. My Thugs MM just ran through his thugs with nary a collision.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Bots are different.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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No, no they really aren't. Thats the same as saying that, if a blaster gets hit with a few AoEs at once, he can't use Fireball and Blaze until he pays an Endurance cost. |
Originally Posted by Vanden
Pet upgrades are basically attacks; they indirectly damage your enemies by making your pets stronger. AoE attacks cost more end than single-target attacks, but the same is not generally true of buffs. And that's why I think it's not likely to change, and makes sense as it is.
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More aptly, Pet upgrades are far more like powers that you have to use to enable Fireball, Blaze, Fire Sword Circle and Burn. Without the upgrades, it's like you're only allowed to use your T1 attacks, and nothing else. And it makes NO sense on an AT who's entire selling points is the pets.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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A Blaster can't use Fireball or Blaze without paying an endurance cost no matter what! But you, MM, after using that prerequisite power, can use Fireball, Blaze, Fire Sword Circle, and Burn as much as you want for free.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
No, no they really aren't. Thats the same as saying that, if a blaster gets hit with a few AoEs at once, he can't use Fireball and Blaze until he pays an Endurance cost.
More aptly, Pet upgrades are far more like powers that you have to use to enable Fireball, Blaze, Fire Sword Circle and Burn. Without the upgrades, it's like you're only allowed to use your T1 attacks, and nothing else. And it makes NO sense on an AT who's entire selling points is the pets. |
And MMs having to resummon and reupgrade more against stronger enemies is a lot like everyone else simply having to attack more to go through all their HP. It's More End on both sides of the table.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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Except that for MMs, it's also their resistance and HP. They bounce from "high" HP with full pets in bodyguard mode (ok, theirs doesn't actually change, but if you consider pets HP by proxy) to the lowest and squishiest in 1-2 good AOEs. And when that happens, they also lose their offensive ability. |
Originally Posted by Vanden
But then after using that power, you can use Fireball, Blaze, Fire Sword Circle, and Burn as much as you want for free.
And MMs having to resummon and reupgrade more against stronger enemies is a lot like everyone else simply having to attack more to go through all their HP. It's More End on both sides of the table. |
The closest analog I can think of are tanks with crashing T9s - but you'd also have to have their entire secondary vanish at the same time.
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You keep saying this like pets are invulnerable...
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Originally Posted by Vanden
A Blaster can't use Fireball or Blaze without paying an endurance cost no matter what! But you, MM, after using that prerequisite power, can use Fireball, Blaze, Fire Sword Circle, and Burn as much as you want for free.
And MMs having to resummon and reupgrade more against stronger enemies is a lot like everyone else simply having to attack more to go through all their HP. It's More End on both sides of the table. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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So what you're saying is, MM pets are actually BETTER than regular attacks because they all directly increase survivability? Because only some attacks increase survivability, and then only indirectly. Sounds more like a justification for higher End costs than an argument against it to me.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Except that for MMs, it's also their resistance and HP. They bounce from "high" HP with full pets in bodyguard mode (ok, theirs doesn't actually change, but if you consider pets HP by proxy) to the lowest and squishiest in 1-2 good AOEs. And when that happens, they also lose their offensive ability.
The closest analog I can think of are tanks with crashing T9s - but you'd also have to have their entire secondary vanish at the same time. |
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
You keep saying this like pets are invulnerable...
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Also I thought this thread was about upgrades and you don't need to upgrade your pets for them to take aggro off you or use Bodyguard mode.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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I actually, physically facepalmed this. Three times.|
Originally Posted by Vanden
So what you're saying is, MM pets are actually BETTER than regular attacks because they all directly increase survivability? Because only some attacks increase survivability, and then only indirectly. Sounds more like a justification for higher End costs than an argument against it to me.
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Have you ever played an MM? Have you ever looked at their HP values? Have you ever taken one on an ITrial before and seen everything vanish in half a second thanks to one Warwalker?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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not only that, but MM pets cannot use their powers any time they want, they too have end, and it's end pets can, and have been known to occasionally run dry on, with very little to restore said end besides feeding them blues.
Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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And now I suspect you're just trying to elicit a reaction.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
Also I thought this thread was about upgrades and you don't need to upgrade your pets for them to take aggro off you or use Bodyguard mode.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Sounds exactly like what happens to my Blaster.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I actually, physically facepalmed this. Three times.
Have you ever played an MM? Have you ever looked at their HP values? Have you ever taken one on an ITrial before and seen everything vanish in half a second thanks to one Warwalker? |
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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Blasters =! MMs
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Originally Posted by Vanden
Sounds exactly like what happens to my Blaster.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Funny enough, i've played blasters and MMs, and I can say this much: A blaster can survive pretty well on a trial because you can stay back and out of the main hairball while firing, MM pets on the otherhand, have no such self-preservation abilities, especially not the thugs Arsonist.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
Sounds exactly like what happens to my Blaster.
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Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Tech, I know I've talked to you about this before. Your anecdotes here are extreme hyperbole and you know it. This kind of inflamed ranting does your arguments no good.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Have you ever played an MM? Have you ever looked at their HP values? Have you ever taken one on an ITrial before and seen everything vanish in half a second thanks to one Warwalker?
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That said, I still think the endurance costs of the upgrades are excessive. I agree with the compromise stated earlier that buffs should now increase their endurance costs slightly and have MM upgrades reduced.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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We're all squishies who die on incarnate trials here.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Blasters =! MMs
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__________________
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
Quote:
If you read back along the thread, I've laid out the facts and figures as best I can. When all that gets is someone trying to get a rise out of me, fine, I get a little tired of repeating myself to someone who is clearly ignorant of the reality.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Tech, I know I've talked to you about this before. Your anecdotes here are extreme hyperbole and you know it. This kind of inflamed ranting does your arguments no good.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Blasters don't have to pay 115 endurance just for their Primary Powers to be active. Or 64+ Endurance every time a pet dies. While running 1.05 end/sec worth of toggles and still trying to avoid being pummeled by +2 Praetorian Bosses.|
Originally Posted by Vanden
We're all squishies who die on incarnate trials here.
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Finally:
Alpha's health (I.E. Fully IO'd out)= 869 HP
Blaster base health without IOs = 1205 HP
Thats about as factual as I can get with without actually regurgitating Mids and the Game file itself.
Edit: So, if your doing Devil's Advocate then that effectively prooves my case correct?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
I've read the thread. I don't see much of value in your arguments. A good deal of what you say is emotional hyperbole, and it doesn't do you any good.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
If you read back along the thread, I've laid out the facts and figures as best I can. When all that gets is someone trying to get a rise out of me, fine, I get a little tired of repeating myself to someone who is clearly ignorant of the reality.
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The closest thing you have to a real argument is this:
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
The New buffs serve the exact same purpose as the original MM change did; QoL. Only difference is, THEY get to keep their ST endurance cost. WE do not. And that is wrong.
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Again, I agree with you that this change is more than a QoL fix, it's a straight up buff. They should have had their endurance costs increased by at least 50% in my mind.
I also believe that the mastermind upgrades are excessively punitive. It's been a while since I did the math on how much of an increase they were over the old versions to come up with an amount I'd like to see them decreased by.
Try to avoid using words like "my" and "their" when comparing ATs. Don't make this personal. This will help prevent your emotions from running your lack of argument.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Seriously? MMs have had issues for some time now. Ever since Demons my Bots have progressively got more and more stupid. They insist on running into melee range to punc hstuff en masse, which never happened to all the pets before Demons came out. Sure, you'd get one drone or P-Bot that decided it was Sparkticus and went off on a Rambo, but that was at least liveable with. And it wasn't all the time.
And then theres the fact I ordered my pets to stand still and shoot stuff on the Additionals team on a BAF, and half of them suddenly took off towards Siege's porch. No, I'm not kidding. And yes, I do know how to control them. Believe me, I was mashing every macro for passive and follow that I have, and I ended up having to destroy them myself to summon some more. And then the OTHER half ran off!
So, yeah. Cutting MMs some slack right about now would be really appreciated.