Give MM Upgrades the same treatment as AoE buffs

No, the Devil's advocate can be right sometimes.

Also, you haven't disproved my main point: that MM upgrades are costly because they're an investment in future End-free damage.

The Devil's advocate also doesn't necessarily disagree with his opponent. I agree that paying so much End constantly in a trial is a real bugbear, but I can't agree that the costs should be reduced in all cases. If it's possible to do only in trials, then yes, sure. In non-trial content, however, MM performance is just too high to justify it.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Pet buffs may wear off, but pets can run at down to -2 from the caster level *and* pets die - sometimes frequently. Which means a resummon and rebuff to get them back to their "proper" ability. And it's not just an Incarnate trial issue - 18-24 tend to be horrid levels for a mastermind, with only one T2 (typically a source of support) pet, DOs at best, and AOE-happy enemies (especially Demolitionists.)

If it were a blaster power, it would become unavailable (aside from recharge) for some amount of time, then MORE endurance would have to be spent to bring its damage and range (for instance) up to where it used to be.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Blasters don't get to front load all their endurance costs. Your MM chooses to run those toggles, and I'm certain there are blasters running equal or more costly toggles themselves. Do the blasters not have to avoid being pummeled by +2 Praetorian Bosses?

Besides, you're just citing differences between the way ATs function. This is not grounds for defending your suggestion.

Alpha's effective health if he leverages bodyguard mode: 3476.
Blaster max health: 1606.4

... assuming he can keep aggro on him instead of his pets, and can keep his pets alive. One AOE can drop that "effective" health dramatically.

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How is a pet dying truly different from a Blaster just missing? In both cases they have to spend more end to achieve the same effect they would have if the bad thing hadn't happened in the first place.

Except MMs, comparitively, do not outperform other damage heavy ATs. None of them have equateable costs to their powers.

And the pets themselves still have endurance bars. Robotics Protector Bots especially seem to run very low on endurance habitually, leaving them only with their basic, ST attack mid-fight until they have time to recover.

And the MMs damage output is only comparative when they have a full contigent of pets out. As soon as even one pet dies, that damage output is reduced, quite substantially in the case of a Tier 3. Whereas other ATs not only have only one health bar to worry about, but also more tools dedicated solely to preserving it. Their damage output (while slightly variable in Brutes) is a constant, and relies only on them being alive. It does not rely on independant bodies to stay constant.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Your right, which is why I'm dropping that comparison.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

When a blaster misses, he just misses. He doesn't lose his max HP. He doesn't lose capability (most T2 pets, often a T1 pet at level 18.) He doesn't lose resistance (bodyguard, for this and the "max" HP.) And he doesnt' have to spend END just to get that capability back. He still HAS the capability and can use it immediately (barring recharge.)

See my Guides and Tutorials

A Blaster doesn't pay just for, say, Blaze to be useable again.
MMs effectively do, since about 90% of their Primary is all tied in to their pets.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I fail to see how this matters. What option does the blaster have to keep aggro off of himself?

My point is mainly this:

The comparison you need to make is between how two different sets of single target buffs were changed in the name of Quality of Life.

In one case, the single target buff was changed to an AoE buff and had its endurance cost more than doubled (if I recall correctly).

In the second case, the single target buff was changed to an AoE buff.

No matter how I look at it, I see a disparity that should not exist.

....'Nuff said?

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

If either of them get hit, they can take a green or get healed, true. Plus, blasters *do* have tools to control aggro - from the secondary/T1, generally an immobilize, among all sets, to other abilities in individual sets - caltrops, tasers, soft controls like knockback and hard controls in the form of holds. All of which, by the way, are under the *direct* control of the blaster. If he wants something held, he uses a hold. He doesn't have to hope something's AI decides to cycle through to it.

However, the blaster does not drop from 1606 max HP to 1200. The MM does lose that "effective" max HP whenever a henchman dies.

See my Guides and Tutorials

Maybe not in pure damage, but in their mix of damage and survivability, yes. My Blaster and Scrappers can't solo EBs at their normal difficulty settings without dipping heavily into tier 9s and inspirations like my MM can. (Yes, I do have an MM.)

But that's not your end bar, and moreover it's just one or two pets. One or two pets running out of end doesn't completely shut down your damage output, and it certainly doesn't drastically reduce your survivability like every other AT.

Only SOME ATs have powers dedicated solely to keeping their health up. And anyway, an MM's distribution of his health and damage output among multiple entities is also their greatest strength.

We've been through this! The Blaster doesn't have to pay End prior to using Blaze because he pays End when he uses Blaze.
We've been through this too! The fact that pets directly increase survivability in addition to providing damage output combined into the same powers is one of the main reasons they're so expensive!

And yet again, the reason the Blaster doesn't have to pay end to have the ability to do something is because he spends end when he uses it instead of in advance.

Well, Beguile, but that's a Day Job power.

See? I do it to everyone!

Even myself!

I'd argue that masterminds in general have much better aggro tools than blasters. Only /Pain and /Thermal really lack control. Even the primary attacks (if you take them) generally include some control, be it stun or knockdown.

If a blaster takes hits and dies, he's dead and does zero damage. If a mastermind's pets are taking aggro, they can be replaced. As long as they don't all die at once, damage is still being dealt despite one or two being missing.

*But* as those are dying, the MM's "effective HP" and resistance are also going down - so as he dies, he starts dying *faster," and loses tools to prevent it.

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Ok. Masterminds still have much greater survivability tools than blasters.

Actually, can we back up for a second? Why are we making this comparison again, anyway?

Cheese.

It all comes down to the cheese.

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No. This is utterly wrong.

Cheese is good. Cheese is always good.

I blame the sock gnomes, myself >_> thievin' lil' buggers...

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

This is the point, and the truth.

And they all lived happily ever after, the End.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

And I just quoted this one.

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