Remove 'Participation' from ITrials


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

Back in the days of yore, before all this shiny stuff and the arbitrary systems that came with it, times were simple. In the world of TFs and SFs, the players were a self policing crowd. Leeches and foot-draggers tended to get kicked by the Team leader, and everyone was happy.

Now? Now we have to fight not just the mobs and AVs, but the constant danger of doing something to anger the almighty god of ITrials.

Yes, I mean the participation metric. The arbitrary thing that decides, through nonsensical means, wether you are worthy of even getting a component, or wether you fail hard enough to get a threads table.

Apparently, trying my damndest to do things, attacking every second I can, siccing my pets on mobs and Marauder, and being close enough to the action to die about four times?
Apparently all that effort is NOT WORTHY! I'm obviously in the same category as leechers and brain-dead folk!


Sorry, but this is rediculous. I am sick and tired of getting shafted on my MM in Lambda. I HATE the tunnels! I am going to die, time and time again, because no one waits, everyone rushes, and MM pets are too stupid NOT to die. And, guess what, there goes all my HP! And hey, I might as well NOT have defences at all for all the good it does againt Praetorian mobs!

I shouldn't have to rush just to get a damn component. Please, get rid of this damn nanny system that is inherently flawed simply because computer are stupid and don't factor in how a player is doing in relation to what is happening. Leechers WILL get kicked, as they always have done. So, stop penalising people who are actually trying their damndest, and who can't get anything above an uncommon because, apparently, they picked the wrong AT


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

/signed

I can appreciate what the devs were trying to do with the system, but the results have shown a clear bias against certain ATs and power sets.


-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-

 

Posted

Since these iTrials can be auto-PUG'ged it's there to prevent people from just Queueing in and door camping.

/unsigned


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoodooGirl View Post
Since these iTrials can be auto-PUG'ged it's there to prevent people from just Queueing in and door camping.

/unsigned
Hmn, since the players don't have any tools to deal with tha-

Wait, yes they do. Kick. We've had that tool for god knows how many years now, and it's not failed net. In fact, they actually get MORE reward this way if they DO manage to door sit and not be kicked. Because they would get nothing from being kicked, instead of 10 threads. While people who are actually taking part and trying their hardest are getting lumbered with an unfair, arbitrary system telling them they might as well door sit next time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Agreed. Social tools like kicking, player notes, and a more robust league management system would be the proper way to deal with doorsitters.

Sextuple-secret probation - not being told we're measured, not being told why we're being measured, not being told what counts or doesn't, not being told what score we have at any given time, not being told what score we need, and not being told when it changes - for everybody isn't justified by the existence of a small number of bad apples who can be punished without making everyone guilty (a doorsitter) until proven innocent ('active' - because it doesn't measure 'participation,' it measures 'activity').


"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Hmn, since the players don't have any tools to deal with tha-

Wait, yes they do. Kick. We've had that tool for god knows how many years now, and it's not failed net. In fact, they actually get MORE reward this way if they DO manage to door sit and not be kicked. Because they would get nothing from being kicked, instead of 10 threads. While people who are actually taking part and trying their hardest are getting lumbered with an unfair, arbitrary system telling them they might as well door sit next time.
Well, then, if you remove participation, what's to stop groups of - let's call them "grinders" - who invite friends to sit at the door while they take their three best tanks/brutes/whatever and basically almost solo the mission - and then their friends, who sat at the door, did nothing, just chilled - got an Uncommon or Rare table?

I'd call that an abuse of the system.

It's sort of like during Infinite Crisis, Superman taking on Anti-Matter while Wonder Woman and Batman sat and waited for their l00t because they didn't feel they were able to participate well enough.

I get it - some people feel they are getting cut out of rewards. I have a Dominator and as we know, my holds/immobs are perceived as [/i]useless[/i] - but I've got 2 rare tables last week because I've moved beyond the idea that I need to hold/immob everything and focused on what else I could be doing.

The Participating System is gratifying everyone, I hear it, I get it. But it needs to be there because these Trials are about participation. To remove it would allow people to kick back, relax, and soaking up l00t (in a worst case scenario.)

So, again /unsigned


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoodooGirl View Post
Well, then, if you remove participation, what's to stop groups of - let's call them "grinders" - who invite friends to sit at the door while they take their three best tanks/brutes/whatever and basically almost solo the mission - and then their friends, who sat at the door, did nothing, just chilled - got an Uncommon or Rare table?

I'd call that an abuse of the system.

It's sort of like during Infinite Crisis, Superman taking on Anti-Matter while Wonder Woman and Batman sat and waited for their l00t because they didn't feel they were able to participate well enough.

I get it - some people feel they are getting cut out of rewards. I have a Dominator and as we know, my holds/immobs are perceived as [/i]useless[/i] - but I've got 2 rare tables last week because I've moved beyond the idea that I need to hold/immob everything and focused on what else I could be doing.

The Participating System is gratifying everyone, I hear it, I get it. But it needs to be there because these Trials are about participation. To remove it would allow people to kick back, relax, and soaking up l00t (in a worst case scenario.)

So, again /unsigned
If that were an 'issue', then why has this system not been added to the stuff where the above is actually both valid and doable, such as TFs and SFs? If there is a group of friends who can actually pull that off...well, that still within the system. In fact, thats specifically playing within the rules of the system as intended.

Example; two friends of mine recently went and Duo'd an ITF. Because they could. They had builds to the point where they could do it. It would then be their decision wether they took people along or not to 'grind' it as you say.

Right now, that situation is NOT applicable to the ITrials, simply because
1) You need more than one team
2) The very design of the trials means you NEED people taking part to have a hope in hell

Again, the system as is is NOT doing what its intended to do. Why would door sitters be discouraged when (if they don't get kicked) they still get threads anyway?
All it's doing is penalising those who take part and don't meet whatever arbitrary, 'blind' computer tick-boxes are needed to decide wether you 'deserve' a component or not.

Also, this wouldn't even be that much of a problem...were there anything else you could do instead of the Trials to get your components. But no, there is nothing else. So, if we have to be stuck with two things and two things only, then the damn things should work as designed for participating players.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoodooGirl View Post
Well, then, if you remove participation, what's to stop groups of - let's call them "grinders" - who invite friends to sit at the door while they take their three best tanks/brutes/whatever and basically almost solo the mission - and then their friends, who sat at the door, did nothing, just chilled - got an Uncommon or Rare table?

I'd call that an abuse of the system.

It's sort of like during Infinite Crisis, Superman taking on Anti-Matter while Wonder Woman and Batman sat and waited for their l00t because they didn't feel they were able to participate well enough.

I get it - some people feel they are getting cut out of rewards. I have a Dominator and as we know, my holds/immobs are perceived as [/i]useless[/i] - but I've got 2 rare tables last week because I've moved beyond the idea that I need to hold/immob everything and focused on what else I could be doing.

The Participating System is gratifying everyone, I hear it, I get it. But it needs to be there because these Trials are about participation. To remove it would allow people to kick back, relax, and soaking up l00t (in a worst case scenario.)

So, again /unsigned
The trials are about participation?

That's actually the best way to describe it I've heard. The system existing makes the trial "about" participation - about making sure you please the system so you don't get the box of rocks "10 threads table" at the end. Even if pleasing the system means playing in an aberrant fashion. Even if what you're doing to please the system - or just playing while looking over your shoulder to make sure the system is happy - makes the trials less fun.

Only nothing ingame says the trials are only and all about participation. We're never told we just have to participate. And in fact, participate as hard as you want - if you don't succeed on at least one subsection of the trial, you get nothing. If you don't succeed at the whole trial, the participation score doesn't matter at all, because you get no reward table.

Definitely though, it's all about participation. That's the point of the trials, to get an E for effort, not a drop for success.


"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."

 

Posted

Trials have many issues that need to be resolved, this being one. Uneven/Random rewards being a major problem, people kicking butt getting shafted and slackers seemingly getting rewarded. The whole must League to get threads thing bugs me too as I prefer to solo or play on smaller teams. Leagues are often more likely suffer from bad lag and one or two people can screw things for everyone.


 

Posted

Signed. Remove and bury deeper than the rest.


Hunter's Forty-Sixth Rule: If your head explodes, you were thinking too much, otherwise you shouldn't worry about the possibility.

 

Posted

Stop arguing with me; I'm right.

I'm always right.


 

Posted

Mostly signed, as long as the measure implemented goes toward penalizing leechers rather than rewarding power-gamers.

I'd rather not have AT choices, bad powerset combinations, lag, lack of leet skills, lack of IOs, etc, to determine whether a player gets a good reward or a bad one. I *do* want slackers and afk'ers and ppl who don't check their temps for acids and grenades to be stuck with getting the worse reward possible.


 

Posted

/signed the participation system does not work

there are poeple who tested and even doorsitters have a chance of getting above a thread table if the entire league did good

as has been stated not just individual participation counts but also participation as a group, which again we dont know what all this entails or the minimum level of participation

i think the 10 threads table should just be removed and poeple can kick whoever they deem necessary

95% of these trials also start with preformed leagues where poeple can be screened before even entering a trial anyway, so this participation system is nothing more than a hassle for a large majority of the poeple, if poeple want to let doorsitters be and have a chance of failing the trial screwing the ENTIRE league of their reward then thats their own fault and poeple will just inherently avoid them

since they fixed the bug with uncommons being weighted too high, the drop table has been giving out a larger variety of rewards, but getting a 10 thread table when you are playing no different from normal is a kick in the teeth


 

Posted

I don't think they should remove the participation, but they should fix it for the problem areas, like masterminds.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbawheat View Post
I don't think they should remove the participation, but they should fix it for the problem areas, like masterminds.
That's what BETA is for. We shouldn't be beta testing something that's the ONLY way to advance Incarnates. If threads dropped from other sources then fine. But since they don't . . .

/signed for dumping it till it's bugs are worked out.


Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
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Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

 

Posted

I've always felt that making events about participation was a bad idea. We should be looking to achieve victory at any cost, not to show technique and hope for 10 from all three judges.

That's not to say I don't feel a participation metric of any kind is a horrible idea, but if one HAS to exist, it should be given to players as an inert score for team leaders to watch over and use as they see fit. But let people have their reward regardless of how non-sentient, error-prone machine "thinks" they did.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

mostly /signed

Thing is, I play a couple.. well several... single-target only avatars. My own Katana / SR stalker charges into fights, takes AV aggro in the BAF, and solo's boxes in the Lambda. Yet, despite anything I do, I've never seen any reward over an Uncommon.

It's gotten to the point that now everytime I complete a trial I file a /bug stating Stalker Rewards are still borked.

I understand the developers decision to lock stuff behind a participation metric, but the reality is, I don't think there is a good way to balance a participation metric without some serious Modifiers to both Archtype and Power-Set choices.

Removing the participation metric as a basis for reward and rebasing Incarnate rewards against Objective completion alone would likely be a better method of determining what salvage drop players should get.

Would that prevent players from leeching? Probably not, but I think the self-policing method of Task-forces that has worked in the past is probably sufficient enough to protect the Itrials now.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
That's what BETA is for. We shouldn't be beta testing something that's the ONLY way to advance Incarnates. If threads dropped from other sources then fine. But since they don't . . .
... yet.

As far as the beta comment - well, the test and live servers aren't the same. We know this. There's also just the fact that we have far more people playing on live than on test. *shrug*

Personally - and no, no data-points recorded - I seem to get a fair enough mix of common/uncommon/rare/vr salvage. Mostly uncommon, yes, but I've had rare and VR show up when I didn't think I'd have gotten them.

The devs won't reveal their "metrics" (obviously, not wanting people to game the system,) but I'm not willing to call them *generally* broken at this point. (Masterminds excepted - the whole pet damage thing needs looking at.)

I have, though, mostly been on one of two controllers (Ice/Emp, Earth/FF) or a blaster (elec/elec - mostly single target,) with the occasional foray into warshades or other characters. I *should* take out my stalker and see what I get there.


 

Posted

This participation thing is ridiculous. I agree, it should either be trashed as the horrible creation of an idea that might've meant well but did more harm than good, or reworked to not be completely idiotic.


 

Posted

It's a necessity. These aren't your run of the mill TF's where you can get by just "walking through it."

Basic Premise:
If you're not going to participate then you won't get rewarded.

Is it perfect right now? No. Should you be consistently getting Rares and Very Rare tables?

NO


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoodooGirl View Post
It's a necessity. These aren't your run of the mill TF's where you can get by just "walking through it."

Basic Premise:
If you're not going to participate then you won't get rewarded.

Is it perfect right now? No. Should you be consistently getting Rares and Very Rare tables?

NO

Should I be getting a thread reward table despite working as hard as I can, as I do every Trial, simply because a no-brained computer with its arbitrary metric decided I was on par with leechers and non participants and likely because I happen to be a mastermind?

SMEG THE HELL NO!

I participate every damn time! I do everything in my damn power to do what the damn thing wants me too while avoiding DYING, and then that rarely works because the bloody Praetorians cheat! And I STILL haven't gotten above an uncommon and even got the bloody threads table!

What the Hell do you CALL that, if not participation? Hmm?


(And yes, I'm a tad hacked the hell off right now, due to being DC'd by my shoddy net provider for a split second while Marauder was at 17 HP left, and the god damned load faffed around for so long that I logged back in to find I'd done all that for NOTHING! Prime metric to see if your system isn't working, is when its making things not fun! )


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

/signed.
There is a lot of things in the system that needs tweaks and this is one of them.


 

Posted

ive been in the same position several times where my ISP decided to DC me about 30 sec before the end of the trial and you get NO reward even if you were in the trial 90% of the time

trials should have the same reward system that tfs do where if you happen to dc at the end but were present 90% of it, then you will still get it

i still side with techbot, no you dont need to get a rare everytime, but getting the threads table when participating or dcing and getting nothing are just bad design


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Should I be getting a thread reward table despite working as hard as I can, as I do every Trial, simply because a no-brained computer with its arbitrary metric decided I was on par with leechers and non participants and likely because I happen to be a mastermind?

SMEG THE HELL NO!

I participate every damn time! I do everything in my damn power to do what the damn thing wants me too while avoiding DYING, and then that rarely works because the bloody Praetorians cheat! And I STILL haven't gotten above an uncommon and even got the bloody threads table!

What the Hell do you CALL that, if not participation? Hmm?


(And yes, I'm a tad hacked the hell off right now, due to being DC'd by my shoddy net provider for a split second while Marauder was at 17 HP left, and the god damned load faffed around for so long that I logged back in to find I'd done all that for NOTHING! Prime metric to see if your system isn't working, is when its making things not fun! )
I don't think the metric is arbitrary.

When the iTrials came out and I was playing my Dominator I noticed I was getting Common reward tables every time - then I stood back and looked at how I was playing my Dom.

I had my Strangler on Auto and that was pretty much it. I'd slap down some immobilizes during Phase III but otherwise the rest of the trial I just targeted through the main tank and let my Strangler auto-hold and do nothing, basically.

Then I was like, well, it wouldn't hurt to use my secondary powerset and some of my other main powers. So I started using all of them. Constantly. Even if it felt like they weren't doing anything. Once I got my Interface power suddenly all of my powers seemed relevant. Even if they weren't doing a ton of a damage, even if they weren't really debuffing, even if they weren't really slowing that much, they had a chance to land that Paralytic Interface secondary effect.

That's when all of my powers became relevant. That's when Thorntrops & Rain of Fire, even if they didn't slow down those Vicki's and 9CU's, became important - just for that Interface effect.

What did I notice? I was suddenly getting Uncommon and Rare tables.

Moral of the Story:

At level 50 you should have a whole slew of powers are your behest - even as a Master Mind.

I have a Master Mind. I use my secondary - poison - constantly. Whatever your Master Mind build is, whatever your secondary is, I don't think for a moment there is a situation during either iTrial where you shouldn't have a moment to not be using it - either attacking your foes or enhancing your teammates.

What do we call that?

PARTICIPATION.


 

Posted

I'd rather remove the particpation effect, and the random reward table.

We have many existing options to deal with leachers or door sitters.

Heh, and some irony with vodoo girl's post:
when you were getting nothing but commons due to what you felt was playing your character poorly, (doing nothing, basically) you were in fact being judged as having been particpating. Getting the common reward means you passed the metric.


I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.

Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.

So sad to be ending ):