Remove 'Participation' from ITrials
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-05-15 06:41 in Suggestions and Ideas
I think Madeline Ashton's stare communicates how I feel about you not agreeing that I'm right.
Always right.
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You're wrong. If someone comes in and door-sits the trial, it's up to their team or league captains TO BOOT THEM FROM THE TRIAL.|
Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
It's a necessity. These aren't your run of the mill TF's where you can get by just "walking through it."
Basic Premise: If you're not going to participate then you won't get rewarded. Is it perfect right now? No. Should you be consistently getting Rares and Very Rare tables? NO |
If it's okay with these people to leave such leeches in the trial, c'est la vie. That's the leaders' decision.
And nobody's asking for rares and very rares all the time. But some people aren't getting ANY. EVER. After running dozens (or in some cases HUNDREDS).
And the only options? Wait weeks/months to build up an appropriate amount of Empyrean merits or pay ruinous (for most people) inf tributes.
Well gee! Thanks! Nice to see that players are penalized because the system itself is borked.
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That's fine. There's people out there who think that the moon landing was faked too. And flat-earthers. And creationists.|
Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
I don't think the metric is arbitrary.
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You're always entitled to be wrong about something.
The fact is, the metric is busted. And badly. You currently have the trials set up in a way that marginalizes several ATs and in some cases makes certain power combinations completely and utterly useless. Not less useful or marginally useful. USELESS.
And I'm sorry, but running the trial endlessly as a fifth wheel to get the Incarnate powers that FINALLY let you contribute to to a trial smacks of the leeching you hold in such contempt.
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Ah. Proof of ignorance being bliss.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
I think Madeline Ashton's stare communicates how I feel about you not agreeing that I'm right. Always right. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
just mere moments ago, my ******* internet mapserved me in a BAF when the 2 AVs were at 30% hp, i load back in and get 0 reward because they already finished the trial
the system is BROKEN because it screws poeple who were participating 90% of the trial and got 0 reward due to random internet connection lapses
this is why the trials have left a bad taste, the reward system is not fair at all
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Well.... that I'd have to argue with. After all, you didn't get *zero* reward. You earned IXP, got threads and - if you finished the other bits inside - Astral merits, correct?|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
just mere moments ago, my ******* internet mapserved me in a BAF when the 2 AVs were at 30% hp, i load back in and get 0 reward because they already finished the trial
the system is BROKEN because it screws poeple who were participating 90% of the trial and got 0 reward due to random internet connection lapses this is why the trials have left a bad taste, the reward system is not fair at all |
Does the situation stink? Sure. Sorry you got DC'd. But it's no different, in that case, from crashing and not reconnecting to a TF before they finish.
Now if you want to say "The devs need to get their code straightened out to handle raids better," hey, I'm right there with ya.
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2-3 threads and maybe 10% on incarnate slot i dont consider progress when you need 60 threads to make even a tier 1 component or 30 threads to purchase a full unlock|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Well.... that I'd have to argue with. After all, you didn't get *zero* reward. You earned IXP, got threads and - if you finished the other bits inside - Astral merits, correct?
Does the situation stink? Sure. Sorry you got DC'd. But it's no different, in that case, from crashing and not reconnecting to a TF before they finish. Now if you want to say "The devs need to get their code straightened out to handle raids better," hey, I'm right there with ya. |
i earned only the basic astral merits on the run, which was like 2-3 because we failed all the badges, i would rather give up all of what i earned to have a chance at a uncommon/rare/very rare component from the reward table since those require almost extortionate amounts of inf/threads to create
and in the case of tfs, yes i have crashed within the last 5 minutes before and i come back and i still get a reward table because i was in mish 90% of the time (ironically this could be considered a participation metric thats well defined, but it WORKS)
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
I think Madeline Ashton's stare communicates how I feel about you not agreeing that I'm right. Always right. |
Still wrong.
And, sorry, too slow. I was already using all my powers as much as possible. Get this; It's a little difficult to use traps in either ITrial and
1) Not have the mob already dead by the time you're finished
2) Not get god-shafted by the rediculous high damage ST and AoE spam attacks that all Praets seem to deal out in spades.
Situations where I can't use the powers?
-Mobs already dead
-Trying to run from a mob thats intent on turning me into tinfoil
-Already DEAD because a mob had homing DoT rockets fired through a wall
I already play by the rules. I jump through all the little hoops. And it matters not one jot.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I agree with this thread.
There are certain things that should not be dictated by a computer, least of all a single computer using a static measuring rod to judge performance based on a single set of numbers.
If such a system HAS to be in place, at least change it so that everyone isn't measured on the same stick. From the day CoH launched, the individual ATs were designed to have unique strengths and weaknesses so that they synergize well together as a team.
I'd rig it so that players are measured according to their archetype, rather than against a single set of numbers. Each AT has a primary set of numbers matching their respective areas of expertise, which determine his overall performance rating. A secondary set of numbers would add up the "counterbalance" statistics, which track the AT's weaknesses and boost/penalize the Primary score accordingly.
A MM, for example, would be graded using the average number of buffs, debuffs, damage, and heals cast, averaging the MM's own performance with that of each pet he has had active during the trial. Naturally, this would give a MM an absurdly high score every time. To balance this, the Secondary figures would weigh the number of times the MM was defeated and the number of times he resummoned a pet.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
It's a necessity. These aren't your run of the mill TF's where you can get by just "walking through it."
Basic Premise: If you're not going to participate then you won't get rewarded. Is it perfect right now? No. Should you be consistently getting Rares and Very Rare tables? NO |
I do participate and i get threads so obviously you have no clue whats going on before declaring such a statement go read other threads and see what the flaws are.
I agree with this suggestion, though doubt it will happen. /signed
"Play Nice and BEHAVE! I don't want to hear about any more of your shenanigans brought up in our meetings at Paragon"-Ghost Falcon @Tritonfree @Philly's 2nd Convenient CIGAL BoBC/INOANN Arts&Crafts Sporks
Average Joes FAP THE MENTOR PROJECT Justice Events
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See the problem is I don't really know whether it's broken or not. With the data from that other thread (with folks who are mostly active getting 10 threads [and it was said waaaaaay more than once]) and the devs being mostly MUM about how the system is supposed to work (and apparently being closed mouthed about it to even their NDA CLOSED BETA testers) I'm not really sure.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
... yet.
As far as the beta comment - well, the test and live servers aren't the same. We know this. There's also just the fact that we have far more people playing on live than on test. *shrug* Personally - and no, no data-points recorded - I seem to get a fair enough mix of common/uncommon/rare/vr salvage. Mostly uncommon, yes, but I've had rare and VR show up when I didn't think I'd have gotten them. The devs won't reveal their "metrics" (obviously, not wanting people to game the system,) but I'm not willing to call them *generally* broken at this point. (Masterminds excepted - the whole pet damage thing needs looking at.) I have, though, mostly been on one of two controllers (Ice/Emp, Earth/FF) or a blaster (elec/elec - mostly single target,) with the occasional foray into warshades or other characters. I *should* take out my stalker and see what I get there. |
I've been fine with a totally RANDOM system. I'm not fine with a random system that may or may not be working 100% of the time because of bugs or because it's new, or because it wasn't properly tested due to the testers not being told how its intended to work.
Remember that thread from a year or so ago when folks discovered that some drops weren't working correctly, and the devs said they were, but then the players provided enough data that the devs took a second look, and lo and behold, there WAS a problem.
Yeah my faith in the devs to build a bug-free participation system right off the bat is NOT at it's highest right now, based on current and recent past history.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
There is something seriously wrong. I have played my tank recently and am doing my tank job.. taunt...grab the AV. get their attention.. keep foes of the squishies.. attack.. use gauntlet effectively by switching targets.. and you know what I am getting.. commons.. constantly...
Im pretty sure the Lambda screws squishies that cannot get past the mobs. When I have been able to get past the mobs and help with the containers i have gotten consistently better rewards.. when I cant because the teams never fight the mobs in the way and I die and go to the hospital a lot, I get crap for rewards. And if you happen to be locked onto team squisy... forget about it..
I am not sure but I believe that powers that act like pets ( rain powers ) dont get counted as being from the player so I believe participation is affected there.
The system is borked and its not fun when you are stuck at tier 2 and have done 20+ Trials and you cannot get the one thing to take you to tier 3 even though you are using you powers to help and participate as much as possible.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
I guess I can't see what the fuss is all about here from those that are getting lucky and those that are not. Some ats do get screwed by this participation method so why not adjust it or remove it as the player is requesting? We're all in this system together, I don't see why anyone would say nothings wrong with the current system when clearly something is still wrong if anyone is still getting nothing but uncommons/commons and the threads table.
My main was one of the very lucky and she got her first 4 t4s crafted in the first week of this and now has 14 t4s (for different builds and situations) I'm sure someone out there probably has more than that or has them all crafted at this point.
Then their is my traps/defender that does alot of debuffing and blasting and shes only received 1 rare and 1 very rare so far since they did the update. Everything else has been threads, commons and uncommons. I had to spend alot of inf coverting to rare just to get some of my level shifts. Despite doing tons of bafs and lambdas.
And finally my empath defender which really does nothing but buff and heal people with the occassional pyschic tornado. She got a very rare on her first trial, then a rare, an uncommon, and another rare. I really didn't see her getting anything good but so far shes had better luck than the traps defender.
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
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Oh, and because I participate in these iTrials and never get threads I don't know what's going on? Seriously? What, because I haven't been chafed like others I can't have an opinion? And because I don't believe the chafing is at all arbitrary I'm wrong and can't have an opinion?|
Originally Posted by Phillygirl
I do participate and i get threads so obviously you have no clue whats going on before declaring such a statement go read other threads and see what the flaws are.
I agree with this suggestion, though doubt it will happen. /signed |
Seriously?
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lol at the bitter chick posting that her old server is a hole in one of their welcome threads calling others chafed.|
Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
Oh, and because I participate in these iTrials and never get threads I don't know what's going on? Seriously? What, because I haven't been chafed like others I can't have an opinion? And because I don't believe the chafing is at all arbitrary I'm wrong and can't have an opinion?
Seriously? |
When you said you are always right it stoped you from saying it was your opinion. If you hold the value of an opinion so high you wouldn't be telling others their's where wrong. Please try to stay straight on your arguments the flip flopping sort of detracts.
Care to try to troll me again? I personally thing it would be fun but your far too easy game. I remember how nutty you have gotten in other threads your much to easily set off.
"Play Nice and BEHAVE! I don't want to hear about any more of your shenanigans brought up in our meetings at Paragon"-Ghost Falcon @Tritonfree @Philly's 2nd Convenient CIGAL BoBC/INOANN Arts&Crafts Sporks
Average Joes FAP THE MENTOR PROJECT Justice Events
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My Mastermind has been the only one doing the trials since the start. And by sheer creativity and constant doing them I managed all powers on T3 (exept Alpha on T4). I am just started on my second rare for interface. And again I will have to create it with shards/threads/conversions.|
Originally Posted by Noyjitat
I guess I can't see what the fuss is all about here from those that are getting lucky and those that are not. Some ats do get screwed by this participation method so why not adjust it or remove it as the player is requesting? We're all in this system together, I don't see why anyone would say nothings wrong with the current system when clearly something is still wrong if anyone is still getting nothing but uncommons/commons and the threads table.
My main was one of the very lucky and she got her first 4 t4s crafted in the first week of this and now has 14 t4s (for different builds and situations) I'm sure someone out there probably has more than that or has them all crafted at this point. |
Do you see the difference? This is a bit more then luck! Oh... and its not debuff or pure damage that I lack as I can usually solo AV's. I throw everything I have and more at the enemy.
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The "I'm always right," was humor, not seriousness - hence the picture from "Death Becomes Her."|
Originally Posted by Phillygirl
lol at the bitter chick posting that her old server is a hole in one of their welcome threads calling others chafed.
When you said you are always right it stoped you from saying it was your opinion. If you hold the value of an opinion so high you wouldn't be telling others their's where wrong. Please try to stay straight on your arguments the flip flopping sort of detracts. Care to try to troll me again? I personally thing it would be fun but your far too easy game. I remember how nutty you have gotten in other threads your much to easily set off. |
For an example of humor, please refer to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7sMilQeVHk
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/humor (definition #3)
- a : that quality which appeals to a sense of the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous
- b : the mental faculty of discovering, expressing, or appreciating the ludicrous or absurdly incongruous
- c : something that is or is designed to be comical or amusing
As for being "nutty" or "easily set off" - let me clarify my point of view:
My Point of View:
- 1. This is the internet.
- 2. Posting on the forums does not affect my ability to eat or pay rent.
- 3. How I am perceived on the forums does not affect my ability to eat or pay rent.
- 4. I enjoy a good debate, even if I am posting into the ephemera.
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In short, if you have to explain it, you've already failed. And in this instance, the humor isn't helping anything (a'la Golden Girl's wink icons all the time). Mostly due to your lack of segregation as to what is your serious POV and what is your non-serious.|
Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
The "I'm always right," was humor, not seriousness - hence the picture from "Death Becomes Her."
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YOU may think it's "obvious". Unfortunately text is a horrifically bad medium for subtle emotional shading (unless you get EXTREMELY verbose).
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Sometimes things go over people's head or they read too much into it |
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
In short, if you have to explain it, you've already failed. And in this instance, the humor isn't helping anything (a'la Golden Girl's wink icons all the time). Mostly due to your lack of segregation as to what is your serious POV and what is your non-serious.
YOU may think it's "obvious". Unfortunately text is a horrifically bad medium for subtle emotional shading (unless you get EXTREMELY verbose). |
, then when they take it the wrong way it has to be explained.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
The "I'm always right," was humor, not seriousness - hence the picture from "Death Becomes Her."
For an example of humor, please refer to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7sMilQeVHk http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/humor (definition #3)
As for being "nutty" or "easily set off" - let me clarify my point of view: My Point of View:
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This is the internet and a game forum you are not debating you are trolling. Your humor is truely lacking and you just come off as bitter
Perhaps you should read your links more. I do love that movie though.
"Play Nice and BEHAVE! I don't want to hear about any more of your shenanigans brought up in our meetings at Paragon"-Ghost Falcon @Tritonfree @Philly's 2nd Convenient CIGAL BoBC/INOANN Arts&Crafts Sporks
Average Joes FAP THE MENTOR PROJECT Justice Events
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Did anyone ask for consistent Rares and Very Rares? No. |
Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
Should you be consistently getting Rares and Very Rare tables?
NO |
Would that be the result if the participation metric was removed?
HELL NO!
Why? Because the drop tables are still weighted differently.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
last night after my random dc costing me a reward table in BAF i joined an 8 man lambda, and the "participation" thing still does not work
at the end of the trial, the empath who was healing rezzing everything, got a thread table and the stone tank (who was the ONLY tank/brute) got threads, everyone else got a component table of varying rarity (i think 3 common, 1 uncommon, 2 rare)
how in the heck did the empath defender and stone tank manage to get threads when especially the stone tank was playing a key role in keeping marauder from 1 shotting everyone else?
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I honestly don't know. |
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
last night after my random dc costing me a reward table in BAF i joined an 8 man lambda, and the "participation" thing still does not work
at the end of the trial, the empath who was healing rezzing everything, got a thread table and the stone tank (who was the ONLY tank/brute) got threads, everyone else got a component table of varying rarity (i think 3 common, 1 uncommon, 2 rare) how in the heck did the empath defender and stone tank manage to get threads when especially the stone tank was playing a key role in keeping marauder from 1 shotting everyone else? |
I know from my experiences, I've only been on one iTrial where someone got 10 threads. I know from my personal experiences, I've generally gotten Uncommons, some commons, and 2 rares.
So, my belief is that the Participation metric should still be there - but, yes, it is new and it is going to need tweaking (nothing is ever really perfect out of the box) - but I feel the removal of the system is a far worse option.
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1. What about AT's that have toggle-heavy powersets? Should they turn those on and off? I don't see that being an intelligent method of participation, and if the metric is about spamming different powers as much as possible, then having only one power set to spam from sounds unbalanced. Of course, that's assuming your understanding of the system is even correct, which I doubt.|
Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
Then I was like, well, it wouldn't hurt to use my secondary powerset and some of my other main powers.
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2. Do you not think most people here haven't tried spamming powers like you have?
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
When the iTrials came out and I was playing my Dominator I noticed I was getting Common reward tables every time - then I stood back and looked at how I was playing my Dom.
I had my Strangler on Auto and that was pretty much it. I'd slap down some immobilizes during Phase III but otherwise the rest of the trial I just targeted through the main tank and let my Strangler auto-hold and do nothing, basically.
Then I was like, well, it wouldn't hurt to use my secondary powerset and some of my other main powers. So I started using all of them. Constantly. Even if it felt like they weren't doing anything. Once I got my Interface power suddenly all of my powers seemed relevant. Even if they weren't doing a ton of a damage, even if they weren't really debuffing, even if they weren't really slowing that much, they had a chance to land that Paralytic Interface secondary effect.
That's when all of my powers became relevant. That's when Thorntrops & Rain of Fire, even if they didn't slow down those Vicki's and 9CU's, became important - just for that Interface effect.
What did I notice? I was suddenly getting Uncommon and Rare tables.
Moral of the Story:
At level 50 you should have a whole slew of powers are your behest - even as a Master Mind.
I have a Master Mind. I use my secondary - poison - constantly. Whatever your Master Mind build is, whatever your secondary is, I don't think for a moment there is a situation during either iTrial where you shouldn't have a moment to not be using it - either attacking your foes or enhancing your teammates.
What do we call that?
PARTICIPATION.
MINDLESS SPAMMING.
If I want to play a button mash game I will go play one. Like a topdown or side-scrolling bullet-candy shooter. Those games don't have a subscription fee, and they aren't given updates that change their fundamental nature after I've been playing them for years.
I don't want COH turned into a fundamentally different type of game seven years after the fact, after paying and playing happily for nearly that entire time. This should not be a hard concept to understand. It's not making the game harder, it's just making you mash more buttons. There's nothing 'harder' about that. In fact, it's dumber. It encourages dumb play - mindless power spamming even against targets that don't warrant it.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."