Tanker solos Giant Monster - Film at 11!!

You cheated and used Reactive Interface so it doesn't count!

But for real, that's impressive Lib. Makes me respect Tanks a little bit now.

I'm not entirely clear about what you're tyring to say here, so if my forthcoming disagreement misses the mark, then I apologize.

If all you're saying is that most of the teams you run would benefit more from an Illusion Controller and/or another strong buff/debuff build, then there's not much room to disagree. If you're saying that Tankers are categorically inferior to buff/debuff builds in teams, then I'd have to take issue. Moreover, if -- as you go on to imply -- you're saying that Tankers are categorically inferior to Scrappers and Brutes in teams, then that seems absurd. You make a point of talking up -RES debuffers, which is fine, but in case you weren't aware, let me remind you that nowadays, Tankers are RES debuffers in the situations where RES debuffs tend to matter most (against a single, hard target like an AV).

As team size rises, in fact, the offensive contribution of a Tanker with Bruising begins to outpace the offensive contribution of a Scrapper/Brute against a hard target. Granted, Bruising doesn't stack, so multiple Tankers may well seem superfluous, but there's an upside, too: Bruising ignores the purple patch.

Add to the above the obvious -- that Tankers have more stand-alone survivability and aggro control than any other AT -- and it's pretty clear that Tankers are at worst on the second tier of general team usefulness. In some of the higher-end content, in situations where even a fully buffed squishy can be two-shotted, where the foe is virtually immune to the defensive debuffs and/or controls at the team's disposal, a Tanker can be absolutely crucial. It's also worth noting that there are a growing number of situations in which the Tanker's much higher RES cap becomes relevant in the comparison versus Scrappers (most ATs, actually). Brutes have Tanker caps, but they also usually need more support.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

Let me put it this way; pre-i20, I'd take a solid tank along on the team unless we had really experienced illusion trolls; if so, the tank would be a waste of a spot considering that are teams usually consiste of high end builds.

Post i20, I am less likely to take a tank since a couple of barriers on the team (on a well built team) makes it almost pointless to have an aggro sink; so we even run STF's (and other TF's and trials) without a single tank.


Most other TF's and trials, we speed them in record time without a tank. Sure a tank 'can' out damage a scrapper since he can survive more easily, but when you have teams with 3 buffers, 3 debuggers, 2 scrappers/brutes, unless you really need someone to pull aggro off others, you're good to go without a tank. The team buffs on our teams usually make worrying about the purple patch superflous.


Our fastest MoSTF (post i20, no temps) run is now 28m, without a single tank on the team.


Hence my statement - tanks can solo GM's now, but that doesn't make them any more useful.

EDIT: Again, this argument is only for ultra-high-end teams; most low to mid end teams stil benefit a LOT from a tank, and a tank that can do so much damage would be a boon for them.

If you have Brutes that are unable to pull aggro off of others, they have failed at being Brutes.

I was referring to the built-in 20% RES debuff in Bruising. That debuff ignores the purple patch. If your whole team is wailing on an AV or whatever, the Tanker will tend to add at least as much damage as a single Scrapper or Brute. Couple that with the extra built-in survivability and aggro control, and frankly no matter how uber your team is, if I had to choose only one melee AT, it'd be a Tanker. His defenses might turn out to be overkill, but a Tanker gives you more redundancy for when the crap hits the fan.

Barrier Destiny is uber when stacked and staggered. Then again, it can't raise your RES cap, and the Incarnate-power argument swings both ways: with everyone packing a crashless nuke and an uber DPS pet, there's less need than ever for a team to seek damage output.

YMMV. Obviously, you can construct a team that can trivialize the contribution of almost any singular build. We play a game that doesn't strictly enforce AT roles, and that's a good thing. I'll say this, though: a single Tanker is most definitely not a crutch on an LRSF, where even the most buff-heavy team can find itself losing squishies in an eyeblink to unwanted aggro. A single Tanker is most definitely not a crutch against Tin Mage's Bobcat, who, as Arcana memorably pointed out, could solo Hamidon in record time if you found a way to orchestrate that fight.

The AT appears to be designed (at the moment) specifically for the hard-hitting, hard targets that most heavily resist debuffs. Whether that role benefits the teams you run, it is a useful role, certainly no less valuable than the role of any non-buff/debuff AT. I'm not surprised that your best time on an STF doesn't include a Tanker, but I also wouldn't bat an eyelash if you said the same thing about any other AT. What would surprise me is if you could demonstrate that replacing a Scrapper/Brute on your team with a single Tanker significantly lowers your run time.

TL;DR: Your criticism of Tankers in this thread just seems to me gratuitous, and if you truly weren't aware of Bruising, uninformed. Your criticisms could be leveraged at almost anything; cherry-picked team compositions don't say anything about general team attractiveness.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

I desperately want debuggers on my teams -- where can I get some?

My apologies, you didn't specify which pets you were speaking of. Considering much of the conversation was about Controller/MM pets, I thought you were referring to those.

Never-the-less, Lore Pets still are pets that are unlocked in a method too similar to leveling. Sure, they don't take up power selection, but it's your power regardless. It's as much a part of the character as Stamina is.

This is kind of Silly.... people are Solo'ing GM's and AV's on tank and you are saying you wouldn't bring one because you don't need "an aggro sink"

Tanks if built a certain way at level 50 can bring -30% to -40% up to -60% if you get lucky -Res against a hard target. That is a free two applications of sleet from a DPS source that is capable of Solo'ing AV's and even some GM's with their DPS output. All while maintaining the highest Res, HP, and threat mods, as well as the highest HP and Res caps.

Your definition of a high end team is just that, your definition. And a very narrow one at that. There are plenty of combinations that benefit from having a tank along.

The game is as it always has been, where no build is required, and everyone is useful. Except stalkers, they still pretty much suck.

That is it, time has come. I challenge your fire corrupter to a dool. HD and TS on, no travel powers. NO RUNNING.

Sounds like Super Smash Bros.

NO ITEMS. FOX ONLY. FINAL DESTINATION.

Sounds more like BlazBlue. (unfortunately there's no proper way to demonstrate just how fast this is said with standard punctuation)

HEAVEN OR HELL.
DUEL ONE.
LET'S ROCK.

Congratulations. Now I've seen a Tanker solo a GM who isn't Sally.

Now I wonder if it can be done with more 'middle of the road' power sets. Fire Armor and Pyre Mastery are very slanted to damage. What about a WP and Stone Mastery or Invul and Energy Mastery.



.

Never played BlazBlue but I hear it's A) Good and B) Hard to master.

....right.

What's your global, btw?

Unfortunately this comes across as "moving the goal posts"...

Originally Posted by PapaSlade Rangle's right....this is fun.

Queue Johnny's never-satisfied complaint: But all tanker combos should be able to solo a GM.

Not all Controller/Dominator/MM/Blaster/Defender/Corruptor/Scrapper/Brute/Stalker combos can solo a GM either. Get over it.

What a strange and incorrect definition of soloing. I suppose, per your rules, Masterminds and Illusion people can't claim to have soloed anything because a pet did a lot of work.

I had always thought that 'Solo' in this game had meant 'To achieve a victory or accomplishment through use of powers available to oneself with no aid or interference from other players.'

Mastermind/Controller/Dominator/Dark Miasma/Patron Pool/Lore Pets are all POWERS of the player, not a contribution from another player. Using them on a GM is still soloing the GM.

Now, JB, if you want to raise the bar and do it on a Tanker without any pets at all, feel free and post the proof. We will all marvel at the achievement.

Until then, let the dude have a victory lap.