Slainsteel, your point is pretty much moot as you've clearly stated, you build teams where a tank isn't required. Anyone could just as easily put together a "speed" team excluding any single AT and still put up very impressive times. Yes that includes excluding Controllers, Corrupters, Brutes, anything.
The point you are trying to make is a very old one, in that tanks aren't *required* but the point you fail to grasp, neither is anything else as far as an AT goes.
I can remember putting together/being on 21 minute LGTF's (When we had a friendly rivalry going with Justice) 22 minute ITF's and 38 min MoSTF's back before bruising, alpha slots and +1's PvPIO's or any of that other incarnate stuff. I've heard people now do them in 14-15 minutes, with STF's around 25-27 minutes. Mostly it seems like people haven't really improved times... just the power creep that has happened in the game lets them go faster.
The one funny difference being... rather than excluding AT's or builds from our teams, when the call went out the answer was always "Play what you want."
Quote:
I am not sure how to say this more clearly.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
Patronizing much? You're making my argument for me, which is that in the so-called high-end teams you run, the only time that the offensive contribution of one Scrapper/Brute/Blaster even arguably matters is against AVs/GMs.
The point is not that the Tanker has the overall damage potential of a Scrapper. The point is that in the situations you describe, the Tanker's disadvantage against trash mobs would be unnoticeable, and the Tanker's resistance debuff is arguably a net advantage against non-trash mobs. You can't have it both ways. You can't put on your my-teams-are-so-much-more-uber-than-you've-ever-seen hat, while at the same time twirling your one-team-member's-offense-matters-oh-so-very-much mustache. All I'm saying is that if your standard is an Illusion/Rad Controller in super-duper-stacking-debuff team, then just about any individual build is gonna pale by comparison. It was just odd to me that you would single out Tankers, which are perhaps the singular melee AT most well-suited to complement otherwise squishy-heavy teams. Arcanaville said it better than I have, though, so let me recap: |
Tankers, do less 'personal' damage than scrappers/brutes, I believe we all agree on that, even with bruising.
Second, bruising doesn't help that much on a really debuff heavy team.
Third, considering how often a team breaks up in high end speed tf's, personal damage is of major concern.
Fourth, on my speed tf teams, survivability is not a concern.
Fifth, considering all these points, the 'best' I can hope from a tanker is that he won't be a negative impact on our efficiency.
Sixth, I am not just singling out tanks; I believe there are a lot of AT's out there that are even more useless to bring on a team.
Seventh, in a post i20, fully IO'ed, Incarnate'd up toons, damage and -resistance is all that counts. Unless you can do solid damage (or increase other people's damage), or have solid -resistance debuffs, you are simply taking away from the team. Tanks are NOT top end +dmg, and their -resistance is only ST hence much less useful than many debuff toons that we can take along.
So, why again would I ever take a tank on my team if I get to cherry-pick the AT's?
I am hoping this should settle it, but I am sure, some one or the other still believes that tanks are 'oh so useful' and will want to argue further.
If you really want to, run with us, and see for yourself. If a tank would help that much, believe me, I would insist on it. This is not an idealogical debate for me - I've been proven wrong about AT's before and I would like to be proven wrong if it helps my teams get things done more efficiently. There just doesn't seem to be any logic that would somehow make it clear that having a tank along on the teams that I run would actually in any way 'help'.
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Quote:
I disagree on the point that there is 'no AT that is needed'.|
Originally Posted by MrLiberty
Slainsteel, your point is pretty much moot as you've clearly stated, you build teams where a tank isn't required. Anyone could just as easily put together a "speed" team excluding any single AT and still put up very impressive times. Yes that includes excluding Controllers, Corrupters, Brutes, anything.
The point you are trying to make is a very old one, in that tanks aren't *required* but the point you fail to grasp, neither is anything else as far as an AT goes. I can remember putting together/being on 21 minute LGTF's (When we had a friendly rivalry going with Justice) 22 minute ITF's and 38 min MoSTF's back before bruising, alpha slots and +1's PvPIO's or any of that other incarnate stuff. I've heard people now do them in 14-15 minutes, with STF's around 25-27 minutes. Mostly it seems like people haven't really improved times... just the power creep that has happened in the game lets them go faster. The one funny difference being... rather than excluding AT's or builds from our teams, when the call went out the answer was always "Play what you want." |
Debuffers and Kins are always needed; so are solid DPS toons.
Run a heavy TF without them and your efficiency _will suffer. Run one without a tank (or a emp fender or a dominator or mastermind or even a blaster) and it really won't, as long as you replace him with a debuff, kin or solid dps toon.
BTW, I've heard claims of 25m even 20m STF's, but it's strange that no one can really seem to provide me with screenshots. Honestly, our best STF time pre-i20 has been 29m, no offensive temps, no deaths and no tanks; I have seen *one* screenshot that beats that time by a minute and I believe they used offensive temps. Of course, our fastest pre-i20 MoSTF was 38m, but then, that was 'with' a tank, so that would account for the slowdown.
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Quote:
Whilst I'd have to yawn my way into a position of either agreeing or disagreeing with you, oh wait, the difference between a tanker and a brute on a speed TF run is too small with the luck factor that is always there, I'd say that anyone who cares has too little of a real life.
|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
BTW, I've heard claims of 25m even 20m STF's, but it's strange that no one can really seem to provide me with screenshots. Honestly, our best STF time pre-i20 has been 29m, no offensive temps, no deaths and no tanks; I have seen *one* screenshot that beats that time by a minute and I believe they used offensive temps. Of course, our fastest pre-i20 MoSTF was 38m, but then, that was 'with' a tank, so that would account for the slowdown.
|
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
New Dawn wins an internet! |
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Whilst I'd have to yawn my way into a position of either agreeing or disagreeing with you, oh wait, the difference between a tanker and a brute on a speed TF run is too small with the luck factor that is always there, I'd say that anyone who cares has too little of a real life.
|
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
|
Quote:
I should be the last person arguing this, but no, not always nowadays. Between Scrappers and Brutes slotting less damaging IO sets in their attacks in search of defense bonuses, and Tankers now having access to Bruising, Musculature and Reactive, I've seen a fair share of Tankers matching and out-damaging the Brutes and Scrappers around them on raids and trials.|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
Tankers, do less 'personal' damage than scrappers/brutes, I believe we all agree on that, even with bruising.
|
Quote:
| Second, bruising doesn't help that much on a really debuff heavy team. |
Quote:
| I am hoping this should settle it, but I am sure, some one or the other still believes that tanks are 'oh so useful' and will want to argue further. |
.
Quote:
Beat my times then let's talk.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Whilst I'd have to yawn my way into a position of either agreeing or disagreeing with you, oh wait, the difference between a tanker and a brute on a speed TF run is too small with the luck factor that is always there, I'd say that anyone who cares has too little of a real life.
|
Oh of course, that would mean I am a no life loser and you're infinitely better because you don't care as much, right?
Great way to win a discussion, go straight to personal attacks.
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Quote:
You need to get on better teams.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I should be the last person arguing this, but no, not always nowadays. Between Scrappers and Brutes slotting less damaging IO sets in their attacks in search of defense bonuses, and Tankers now having access to Bruising, Musculature and Reactive, I've seen a fair share of Tankers matching and out-damaging the Brutes and Scrappers around them on raids and trials.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
As it's been stated, unless your team is hitting the -300 cap for resistance debuffs, Tankers are increasing the damage the team does to hard targets like AVs and EBs by 20%. And they sometimes do it faster than a debuffer can even anchor it.
I think you're delusional, and not in the fun way like I am. . |
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Quote:
No items. Fox Only. Final Destination|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
Beat my times then let's talk.
|
.
I don't think I've ever seen a scrapper of any kind outdamaging a Fire/SS/Soul tanker in ST *and* AoE damage - obviously some scrappers do better in one of these areas, but it has to be both as both are important in a speed TF. FM/SD/Pyre might come close, but the smaller radius on FSC really put a dent in actual playability (which translates to real DPS) in my experience.
Incidentally, while I don't run optimized teams, the times I managed to get with my friends aren't too far from what the speed crowd reports (at least in public), and before I played my SS/Fire brute all my fastest TF runs were done with my Fire/SS tanker, a much superior character than my FM/SD, ELM/SD, DB/Inv, DB/WP and DM/Inv scrappers.
Quote:
Huh?
|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
No items. Fox Only. Final Destination
. |
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Quote:
Beat your times, hmm I may well end up doing that. I do happen to belong to a Speed group, whatever is done is down to the team and if you read my Sig I don't tend to brag about it. We'll see what comes but when it comes is down to plenty of other people and what they have got on with their lives.|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
Beat my times then let's talk.
Oh of course, that would mean I am a no life loser and you're infinitely better because you don't care as much, right? Great way to win a discussion, go straight to personal attacks. |
I think the no life loser part is a bit harsh. If you've garnered that from my post then that was unintentional, most players are happy just logging in after a hard days work where like me they run a business and are happy just letting go of authority and anything serious. I'm in engineering and coming home to do maths is something I'd try to avoid as its a bit like a painter coming home from decorating to do decorating.
I don't like excluding people so naturally I couldn't give a monkeys if there were stalkers, masterminds, tankers and peacebringers in a speed team, what does matter to an extent is how they adapt. So if you are the type to exclude somebodies beloved character from a team that they worked so hard on then you are no better and perhaps worse than little old personality attacking me.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
What exactly do you mean by playability? The ability to cruise through without worrying about any damage at all? A scrapper and brute needs to be more active in procuring and sustaining survivability, but it doesn't really hamper their DPS if they're good. With a tank, you get the survivability much easier but lose on DPS.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
I don't think I've ever seen a scrapper of any kind outdamaging a Fire/SS/Soul tanker in ST *and* AoE damage - obviously some scrappers do better in one of these areas, but it has to be both as both are important in a speed TF. FM/SD/Pyre might come close, but the smaller radius on FSC really put a dent in actual playability (which translates to real DPS) in my experience.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Incidentally, while I don't run optimized teams, the times I managed to get with my friends aren't too far from what the speed crowd reports (at least in public), and before I played my SS/Fire brute all my fastest TF runs were done with my Fire/SS tanker, a much superior character than my FM/SD, ELM/SD, DB/Inv, DB/WP and DM/Inv scrappers.
|
..and as I said, Fire/SS tanks are usually comparable to lower end scrappers and brutes if built for damage. Unfortunately, most aren't. A tank usually is, and should be, built for survivability over damage. Guess what, that's what usually happens.
I will not take a claws/regen on a MoLambda over a Invuln/DM tank - but that is an exception case. I am speaking about the majority case here, in which, tanks are really much better replaced by debuffers, buffers or pure DPS.
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Quote:
I log in usually after 12-14 hours of work myself; that doesn't mean I want to run unoptimized teams. Usually 'to each his own' works well - which of course is a concept that you're not accustomed to.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Beat your times, hmm I may well end up doing that. I do happen to belong to a Speed group, whatever is done is down to the team and if you read my Sig I don't tend to brag about it. We'll see what comes but when it comes is down to plenty of other people and what they have got on with their lives.
I think the no life loser part is a bit harsh. If you've garnered that from my post then that was unintentional, most players are happy just logging in after a hard days work where like me they run a business and are happy just letting go of authority and anything serious. I'm in engineering and coming home to do maths is something I'd try to avoid as its a bit like a painter coming home from decorating to do decorating. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I don't like excluding people so naturally I couldn't give a monkeys if there were stalkers, masterminds, tankers and peacebringers in a speed team, what does matter to an extent is how they adapt. So if you are the type to exclude somebodies beloved character from a team that they worked so hard on then you are no better and perhaps worse than little old personality attacking me.
|
On speed teams, I do not bring un-optimal toons and I expect everyone else to do the same. When I PuG, I clearly advertise what I need and that it _is a speed run.
This discussion doesn't really seem to be anymore about if one has a reason to take a tank or not, but rather about people's sensitivities about leveling and building up a toon that well, is actually not optimal and then complaining that people like me care.
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Quote:
I totally missed this post.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
Bluntly, no one cares what you -- slainsteel, specifically -- choose to do with your high-end teams. Your logic here is circular: "Why would I want a Tanker on a team that already has a Tanker's greatest strengths covered?" The answer is that you wouldn't, but not every team has invincible Illusion pets coming out of its ears. Believe it or not, there are even high-end teams that might actually want to have a meatshield for certain encounters.
(The Freedom Phalanx in the LRSF is perhaps the best example in non-Incarnate content; even with 8 buff/debuff sets, support characters can still be two-shotted in that scenario if they're not careful). All you've managed to demonstrate is that your teams don't need or even want Tankers, or Scrappers, or Brutes, or Blasters, or really anything that isn't a debuff build. That's fine. It's not a particularly interesting observation, though. The game was, I'm grateful to say, designed not to enforce rigid team roles. Of the above list, I'd still say that Tankers are the most generally appealing to teams of all shapes and sizes. You haven't even really tried to make a plausible argument to move me from that estimate. |
So what you are really missing is that this game DOES enforce particular team roles if you want to run really efficient teams.
I *am* specifically talking about the case when the leader can cherry pick his team's AT's, not teams that unfortunately don't have illusion trolls in any number that they want/need.
Otherwise a team of 8 tankers should be able to run a STF as fast as a team of 8 Ill/Cold trollers.
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Quote:
In that specific sentence, I was speaking about the radius of Fire Sword Circle, which is 10' as compared to Foot Stomp 15'.| What exactly do you mean by playability? |
Many people just look at plain damage on AoEs and make their decisions based on that, or claim that they hit the target cap everytime they use their AoE. I can't rule the possibility of that happening and the dozens of thousands of different players I've played with being crap, but this just doesn't match with my ingame experience. Having a bigger radius makes AoEs significantly easier to use, and not having to wait an extra second or two for things to bunch up all nice and tightly around you is a significant "damage" increase on a fight that last, say, four seconds.
I do not care about survivability. My brutes and scrappers haven't survivability issues, and don't take special steps for survivability purposes. They don't need to.
Quote:
| Try a DM/SD scrapper or brute; if you play it well, a SS/Fire tank will pale in comparison. |
Quote:
| ..and as I said, Fire/SS tanks are usually comparable to lower end scrappers and brutes if built for damage. |
Disagree with me? You've suggested people beat your times. This is highly unpractical as we don't all have 7 friends playing the game at a high level. I suggest you post a video of any scrapper combo you want soloing a pylon (without lore pets would obviously be ideal, as lore pets are up only a third of the time and can't always stay alive, but I don't mind if you want to use these, it'd benefit the tanker more thanks to Bruising...), and then post another video of that exact same scrapper combo using the exact same powers soloing a farm, with influence numbers (from combat attributes) clearly shown from start to finish as to be able to determine speed through influence per kills. Obviously, everything would have to be raw, unedited footage.
If you do that, I'm willing to rebuild my Fire/SS tanker and post two videos using the same rules/methodology. However, I will NOT go through the trouble of rebuilding him (esp. as I'd have to go through the whole incarnate process, and I don't play all that much), recording and uploading videos first as too many people tend to talk a lot and never actually go through the process of proving themselves when asked to, so don't bother to ask. I don't really care if you believe me or not, but I will put the effort if you prove you can too.
Quote:
There's the disconnect I suppose.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Nope, a DM/SD/Pyre (best case scenario) is well below. The ST damage is only higher if surrounded with targets or capped through external buffs, the AOE damage is a lot lower.
|
I am speaking about high end teams. Everyone has buffs, all the time, even when they're out solo'ing stuff. Of course when solo'ing their buffs may get lighter, but they're there. On my Dark/SD, soul drain usually is perma, and of course assuming good players, they would only hit it when they have 5-6 enemies in range, then move on.
Hence I believe we're talking about very disjoint gaming scenarios.
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Another miss, I'm afraid. See, DM/SD is a combo that relies heavily on selfdamagebuffing. If you assume external buffs are going to up all the time, and to the extent to cap people (how exactly does that work during the cysts, I'd be interested in seeing a video, not just words ; having a lot of trouble buying that you can split 3, 4, 5 ways and retain damage cap through buffs on every character ; insps would be a lot more plausible to me) then FM/SD does slightly better ST damage as well as much higher AoE damage. As I already said, FM/SD doesn't compare ; so DM/SD, being lower on the food chain than FM/SD, doesn't compare either.
Quote:
Have you actually played those toons? You're really starting to sound like someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Another miss, I'm afraid. See, DM/SD is a combo that relies heavily on selfdamagebuffing. If you assume external buffs are going to up all the time, then FM/SD does slightly better ST damage as well as much higher AoE damage. As I already said, FM/SD doesn't compare ; so DM/SD, being lower on the food chain than FM/SD, doesn't compare either.
|
Furthermore, if you don't run on speed teams regularly, you really do not have any real data to comment on this subject.
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Yes, I've played those alts. I doubt you have ever played a Fire/SS tanker.
Are you going to keep throwing meaningless words around, or take me up on the offer of posting actual video proof?
Quote:
Figures you would try to squirm out of the argument when someone put up a challenge for you.
|
Originally Posted by slainsteel
Have you actually played those toons? You're really starting to sound like someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.
Furthermore, if you don't run on speed teams regularly, you really do not have any real data to comment on this subject. |
Quote:
No, but a lot of our players in Speed Club have Fire/SS tanks, they make good farmers. We've had extensive discussions about the merits and demerits of tanks/scrappers/brutes of all kinds along with data.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Yes, I've played those alts. I doubt you have ever played a Fire/SS tanker.
Are you going to keep throwing meaningless words around, or take me up on the offer of posting actual video proof? |
Why would I bother posting video proof on this? You're trying to convince me that a Fire/SS tank can out-damage a DM/SD; that is um, kind of silly. Read the Rikti Pylon Thread, or talk to someone who knows how to actually play the game. Hell do a search for highest melee dps, you'll see calculations that place DM/SD scrappers and brutes as some of the highest DPS toons in the game.
If you want to argue that SS gives more of AoE damage, well, in all the scenario's I've stated till now, AoE damage is really the least useful unless it is very specific situations like the traitors in the ITF and the AoE is significantly higher.
Lastly, if I don't care about survivability, why would I make a Fire/SS tank over a SS/Fire brute?
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Quote:
Oh because I'd of course love to take the trouble of recording a raw video on a mac when an argument doesn't show any merit in terms of just pure logic, right?
|
Originally Posted by Clouded
Figures you would try to squirm out of the argument when someone put up a challenge for you.
|
Virtue Speed Junkie
A Simplified Guide to Attack and Defense
Quote:
You come into the Tanker Forum and trash the AT and then refuse to provide any proof of your claims. |
Originally Posted by slainsteel
Oh because I'd of course love to take the trouble of recording a raw video on a mac when an argument doesn't show any merit in terms of just pure logic, right?
|
Put up or shut up. I don't care about your speed run times since you could be the weakest link and the 7 other players are just carrying your dead weight.
I have yet to see a reason to actually bring a tank on a team which has no issues with survivability (particularly post i20); which is the basic logic behind my original statement, "I still wouldn't take a tank on my teams".
(The Freedom Phalanx in the LRSF is perhaps the best example in non-Incarnate content; even with 8 buff/debuff sets, support characters can still be two-shotted in that scenario if they're not careful).
All you've managed to demonstrate is that your teams don't need or even want Tankers, or Scrappers, or Brutes, or Blasters, or really anything that isn't a debuff build. That's fine. It's not a particularly interesting observation, though. The game was, I'm grateful to say, designed not to enforce rigid team roles. Of the above list, I'd still say that Tankers are the most generally appealing to teams of all shapes and sizes. You haven't even really tried to make a plausible argument to move me from that estimate.