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So I should make a video of a Tanker defeating a GM without pets to prove my stance that Tankers can't defeat GMs without pets?|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
You do it then. Put your money where your complaints come from and go make a video showcasing you doing the exact thing Sylph did but better. I eagerly await that video. I really do.
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You fail logic.
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ahurrhurrrrdedurrrr|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
So I should make a video of a Tanker defeating a GM without pets to prove my stance that Tankers can't defeat GMs without pets?
You fail logic. |
You fail at being witty.
Read it again genius, and don't glean from it only what you need to fuel an argument. Let me put it in big text for you.
Make a video of your best tanker soloing a GM. Do it better than Sylph did. If that means no pets, don't use pets. If that means no epic pool, don't use epic pool powers.
Until you do that you are just trolling someone who's having fun with their Tanker.
Put. Your money. Where your mouth is.
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Sadly, this won't help. If he's butt-hurt about Masterminds, or Tankers, or any AT that isn't his personal favorite doing this, then he's going to be butt-hurt about it forever. And even if he does "do it better", who really gives a rat's a**? He'll still never give anyone else credit for their own ingenuity and resourcefulness.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Put. Your money. Where your mouth is.
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Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
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Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
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Johnny's (ill-conceived) argument is that it's not soloing if you use pets (that are your own power). He's not claiming he can do it better, just that what the OP did is not "soloing" by his definition. It's a minority stance, but he's allowed to bemoan it if he like. |
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
You fail at being witty.
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Your challenge actually does sound flawed in its reasoning. But don't worry, we all agree Johnny is holding a grudge here.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
TL: DR
Seeing a lot of comparisons to Illusion or Masterminds using pets to solo GMs. The fact of the matter is, that's their power set. Only they can have it. Lore pets and other incarnate powers are things that ANY one can get, which kind of nullifies the feat. It's the same with Shivans, Nukes and Inspirations. Give enough of those things to any toon, and they will be able to solo GMs. A Petless Force Field MM with the lore pets, shivans, nukes and insps could solo a GM. The more in common buffs you use, things that any toon can use, the less of a feat it becomes. (including IOs. Solo on SOs or IOs, the SO person has more respect from me.)
Also, Paladin is a low level GM, an even less spectacular feat.
I know, if I did that, I would be excited and thrilled, and prolly share it with people. But then I would go out and try to stretch myself even more. The special part about soloing GMs/AVs is not that you can do it, or even how easily you do it. It's how handicapped you are. The difficulty rises the more handicaps you put on yourself, as well as the respect gained.
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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So, since anyone can get lore pets, does that mean that it's not soloing if anyone (regardless of AT) uses Hasten or Tough/Weave (or any other pool power)?
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Originally Posted by _Pine_
TL: DR
Seeing a lot of comparisons to Illusion or Masterminds using pets to solo GMs. The fact of the matter is, that's their power set. Only they can have it. Lore pets and other incarnate powers are things that ANY one can get, which kind of nullifies the feat. It's the same with Shivans, Nukes and Inspirations. Give enough of those things to any toon, and they will be able to solo GMs. A Petless Force Field MM with the lore pets, shivans, nukes and insps could solo a GM. The more in common buffs you use, things that any toon can use, the less of a feat it becomes. (including IOs. Solo on SOs or IOs, the SO person has more respect from me.) Also, Paladin is a low level GM, an even less spectacular feat. I know, if I did that, I would be excited and thrilled, and prolly share it with people. But then I would go out and try to stretch myself even more. The special part about soloing GMs/AVs is not that you can do it, or even how easily you do it. It's how handicapped you are. The difficulty rises the more handicaps you put on yourself, as well as the respect gained. |
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
You could add IOs and IO set bonuses to that argument as well.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Not saying its not soloing. Never mentioned anything about it not being soloing. I am just pointing out that its not a really big feat to get all excited about. If the only way you can solo a Boss/AV/GM is to pop a bunch of insps, use nukes, shivans, incarnate stuff. By all means do it, but don't expect people to bow down and worship you because of your awesome achievement.
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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I did :P
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
You could add IOs and IO set bonuses to that argument as well.
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Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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It's still soloing in my opinion, and I think certain posters are being unduly rude and negative.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
So, since anyone can get lore pets, does that mean that it's not soloing if anyone (regardless of AT) uses Hasten or Tough/Weave (or any other pool power)?
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I think there is no reason to take away from what the OP is doing, and having fun while doing so.
That being said, it really is very heavily the pets.
The Warworks do a truly ridiculous amount of DPS.
I tested with one of my Brutes, no pets, and got a 5 min 2s pylon time, and then did it again with T3 Warworks and the time went to 2 min 10s.
I wasn't really excited about it. It wasn't my character doing the extra DPS. It was the pets. This is why I don't play MMs in the first place, I don't like NPC pets to do the work for me.
Pets are not like Toughness and Weave, or Hasten - those are things you have to fit into your build, you have to deal with their endurance costs, you have to dedicate slots to them.
The pets are this gigantic amazing freebie that costs you nothing in terms of fitting them into your build and making them work. You don't even need to slot them for End Rdx or Damage.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
You could add IOs and IO set bonuses to that argument as well.
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You don't need to do any of that with the pets.
That doesn't make it less fun to play with them, or try and do all kinds of things with them that you couldn't even attempt before.
Eh, lore pets or not lore pets, you still have to work for them (grinding out trials) so its still a part of your build.
They aren't 'free' either by the same arguement. You have to work for them. Its not something you can just walk into a zone, kill some mobs, and magically get. You have literally grind trials for the iXP and the components (or spend billions of inf to do it)
I won't deny it was heavily reliant on pets, but then again, other ATs heavily rely on defensive bonuses to do the same. Again, we both agree it's still soloing.
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Last I checked you still have to fit Pool Powers into your build just like any other power selection. Hasten isn't exactly an inherent power.| Pets are not like Toughness and Weave, or Hasten - those are things you have to fit into your build, you have to deal with their endurance costs, you have to dedicate slots to them. |
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| The pets are this gigantic amazing freebie that costs you nothing in terms of fitting them into your build and making them work. You don't even need to slot them for End Rdx or Damage. |
I thought summoning the pets did cost endurance. Am I wrong? Besides, after summoning pets, a Mastermind isn't really hurting for end. It's only if he resummons any that he might.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Eh, lore pets or not lore pets, you still have to work for them (grinding out trials) so its still a part of your build.
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Horse puckey.
What's the end use of the Lore pets?
What's their DPA?
How do they fit into an attack chain?
What sets can they accept?
"Part of your build' my butt. They're a delicious Incarnate freebie.
JB can be a jerk, but in this case, he's a jerk that's right.
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So are all powers. Temp or no. You have to achieve the correct level to get to use powers in your set.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Eh, lore pets or not lore pets, you still have to work for them (grinding out trials) so its still a part of your build.
They aren't 'free' either by the same arguement. You have to work for them. Its not something you can just walk into a zone, kill some mobs, and magically get. You have literally grind trials for the iXP and the components (or spend billions of inf to do it) |
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Yeah ya just know someone with their Ill/Rad would drop 3 of them, in half the time
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I would solo tank seven or more GMs after a hami raid for the heck of it back in the day (on fire/mace), and dropping them was relatively easy with an all HO build before GDR & ED.
Now dropping an AV/GM is astonishing, which only furthers my contention that the very height of Incarnate and IO build you can attain today (as I have on the same fire/mace) would get the snuffing tore out of it by an 04- early-05 all HO'd build, rather easily.
having pointed that out, I celebrate any and all Tanker feats attained, so hats off, well done. =]
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Pretty much my feelings on the matter.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
It's still soloing in my opinion, and I think certain posters are being unduly rude and negative.
I think there is no reason to take away from what the OP is doing, and having fun while doing so. That being said, it really is very heavily the pets. The Warworks do a truly ridiculous amount of DPS. I tested with one of my Brutes, no pets, and got a 5 min 2s pylon time, and then did it again with T3 Warworks and the time went to 2 min 10s. I wasn't really excited about it. It wasn't my character doing the extra DPS. It was the pets. This is why I don't play MMs in the first place, I don't like NPC pets to do the work for me. Pets are not like Toughness and Weave, or Hasten - those are things you have to fit into your build, you have to deal with their endurance costs, you have to dedicate slots to them. The pets are this gigantic amazing freebie that costs you nothing in terms of fitting them into your build and making them work. You don't even need to slot them for End Rdx or Damage. Again those require planning, you need to have a dedicated, optimal attack chain. You need to make build choices and sacrifices to make a melee character that can both survive the encounter and do enough DPS to solo an AV. You don't need to do any of that with the pets. That doesn't make it less fun to play with them, or try and do all kinds of things with them that you couldn't even attempt before. |
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Or in any month where the number two is even.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Yes, I gripe when one pool out of eight has two insanely powerful abilities that utterly blow the seven other pools out of water.
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Over in the Scrapper forums, we've had these philosophical debates for almost as long as the game has been around. Over the years, we've come down to the basic conclusion that:
a. If you're doing it with the powers available to a single character, its soloing by definition.
b. If you can do it excluding certain powers, that's a qualifier.
c. Anyone who makes a big deal about trying to push their own definition of soloing upon another player is a weenie.
What I see in the video is Sylph Knight soloing a GM. If Sylph Knight did it without Lore pets that would be called "soloing a GM without incarnate pets." If Sylph Knight soloed one of the GMs on Monster Island, that would be called "soloing an intrinsic level 50 GM." All interesting accomplishments.
The scrapper forums kill and eat people who denigrate other players' accomplishments and wear their skins as trenchcoats. The guy that can take down a pylon in 90 seconds doesn't poo-poo the guy who just figured out how to take down a 54 spawn in RWZ. The tanker forums should do no less.
I will say this:
Deus_Otiosus:
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Pets are not like Toughness and Weave, or Hasten - those are things you have to fit into your build, you have to deal with their endurance costs, you have to dedicate slots to them. The pets are this gigantic amazing freebie that costs you nothing in terms of fitting them into your build and making them work. You don't even need to slot them for End Rdx or Damage. |
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Except that GMs weren't as difficult to kill back then as they are now. It's hard to make any direct comparisons between player characters then and player characters now because the entire context was different -- but I think it's pretty clear that an IO-heavy build of the right type blows a pre-ED, HO build from the way back machine out of the water.|
Originally Posted by Acemace
I would solo tank seven or more GMs after a hami raid for the heck of it back in the day (on fire/mace), and dropping them was relatively easy with an all HO build before GDR & ED.
Now dropping an AV/GM is astonishing, which only furthers my contention that the very height of Incarnate and IO build you can attain today (as I have on the same fire/mace) would get the snuffing tore out of it by an 04- early-05 all HO'd build, rather easily. . |
After all, there was no such thing as a soft-capped squishy. Hell, back then, there was no such thing as the soft cap, period. We had perma-Hasten out of the box, but we didn't have access to global recharge bonuses over and above Hasten, and since damage slotting was unconstrained, there was no recharge slotting worth discussing in most attacks (HOs gave you extra accuracy or extra mez along with damage, nothing else).
Some individual powers were obscenely powerful by today's standards back in the day (bugged Smoke Grenade, perma-unstoppable, perma-Elude, toggle Instant Healing, perma-Moment of Glory, and on and on), and I think it's fair to say that players, on average, delivered somewhat more damage than they do now. But IOs and now Incarnate powers add a depth of capability to every build that we could scarcely even conceive in the first year or two after the game's launch.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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I don't think you understand the number of powers that were broken "back in the day". You could become absolutely invincible in a great number of ways, as well as do truly obscene damage.
On a completely unrelated note, the power of the new incarnate abilities saddens me, especially the pets.
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Between March 2005 and June 2005, maybe. That was the period of time in which it was possible to have a build full of (level 50) HOs and before the HO nerf. With 50/50 Nucs, I think you could make the case that fully HOed builds had damage hard to reproduce now. But 33/33 Nucs are much easier to approach today with high end invention builds, especially given the huge amounts of recharge now achievable which better optimize attack chains.|
Originally Posted by Acemace
I would solo tank seven or more GMs after a hami raid for the heck of it back in the day (on fire/mace), and dropping them was relatively easy with an all HO build before GDR & ED.
Now dropping an AV/GM is astonishing, which only furthers my contention that the very height of Incarnate and IO build you can attain today (as I have on the same fire/mace) would get the snuffing tore out of it by an 04- early-05 all HO'd build, rather easily. |
On the defensive side, I believe there are few pre-I9 builds of any kind that can approach the best defensive ones today. Perma-unstoppable with double stacking invincibility would be one. Perma-Elude with the faster aid self would be another. Fire tankers might be borderline because pre-ED and pre-GDN they had significantly higher smash/lethal resistance, but today you can stack a lot of defense on a fire tanker that simply didn't exist back then, and pre-I7 anything short of very high defense was trivially shredded.
Also, check out these I4ish vs modern cast times for War Mace:
Bash: 1.37 / 1.33
Pulverize: 1.83 / 1.5
Jawbreaker: 2.87 / 1.83
Clobber: 1.83 / 1.23
Whirling Mace: 2.87 / 2.87
Shatter: 2.87 / 2.33
Crowd Control: 2.27 / 2.0
On average the set is over 20% faster. My guess (and I haven't computed the optimal chain by hand to be sure) is that modern War Mace in a high end invention build probably equals, if not exceeds, the damage output of pre-ED but post HO-nerf builds when the faster cast times, the higher global recharge, damage procs, and bruising are all factored in.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Also, check out these I4ish vs modern cast times for War Mace:
Bash: 1.37 / 1.33 Pulverize: 1.83 / 1.5 Jawbreaker: 2.87 / 1.83 Clobber: 1.83 / 1.23 Whirling Mace: 2.87 / 2.87 Shatter: 2.87 / 2.33 Crowd Control: 2.27 / 2.0 |
Yep I remember the c/t changes for mace then melee in general, lol.
Among other improvements to the set.
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Updates to wm A minor graphical effect enhancement to the set pre I5 The powers Clobber and Jawbreaker were switched in the order that you can now obtain them >8-1-06 Weapon Customization >11.28.07 Minor change to the Build Up graphical and sound effect >12-11-07 Modified Attack times and minor changes to duration of the rooted portion of attack animations for War Mace Activation changes ----pre- post- Pulverize 1.83 1.60 Bash 1.37 1.33 Clobber 1.83 1.23 Jawbreaker 2.87 1.80 Shatter 2.87 2.33 Crowd cont 2.27 2.00 >12-11-07 The cast time for Whirling Mace, Pulverize, and Jawbreaker were altered. ----pre- -post Whirling Mace 2.87 2.67 Pulverize 1.60 1.50 Jawbreaker 1.80 1.83 >5-20-08 Increased radius of War Mace Crowd Control from 5 to 8. Decreased radius of War Mace Shatter from 10 to 8, but increased its arc of attack from 20 degrees to 45 degrees. Crowd Control and Shatter changed from knock back to knock down >2-12-08 Clobber: Reduced Recharge Time to 16 seconds and alter damage scale and endurance costs to match using the standard formula. This means it it now a pretty hard hitting attack, with a damage scale of 2.29 and a base endurance cost of 15.18. Since this is now classified as a Damage power rather than a control power, the base duration of the Stun effect was reduced from scale 10 to scale 5. Shatter: Reduced Max Targets Hit from 10 to 5. Crowd Control: Increased Max Targets Hit from 5 to 10. >12-2-08 War Mace - Crowd Control - Corrected range and radius to 8 feet War Mace - Shatter - Corrected range and radius to 8 feet War Mace - Whirling Mace- Corrected range and radius to 8 feet >1-21-09 |
Not everyone playing today had a high level all HO'd character back in 04, and a lot of those heavy raiders that did have long since quit, but if you did, you know how ridiculously easy (broken) the game was during that window, even easier then is possible currently with a high end IO'd all five 4th tier Incarnate.
GMs were easier back then, though seven GMs for a fire tank were still seven GMs.
Bring on more Tanker feats, I say. ;]
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And as I said, they have to be fit into your build. Pets do not need to be fit in, they fit on top of what you already have.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
Last I checked you still have to fit Pool Powers into your build just like any other power selection. Hasten isn't exactly an inherent power.
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Originally Posted by Rylas
Cost free? Have you run the trials? Have you just been lucky with Rare and Very Rare drops? And you don't slot them for end or damage because THE GAME WON'T LET YOU!!
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
The pets are this gigantic amazing freebie that costs you nothing in terms of fitting them into your build and making them work.
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Congrats on the Solo!
That being said.... for all the Nay Sayers out there, check the news at 12! (Since a few people might have been hinting at it being impossible without pets. 
)
http://www.wegame.com/watch/firess/
(Yes its a very boring 12 minutes 51 seconds)
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bah.... we all know Fire Ball is way OP... |
Originally Posted by MrLiberty
Congrats on the Solo!
That being said.... for all the Nay Sayers out there, check the news at 12! (Since a few people might have been hinting at it being impossible without pets. )http://www.wegame.com/watch/firess/ (Yes its a very boring 12 minutes 51 seconds) |
Nice job
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."