Wile the new zone will almost certainly be Praetorian in content, I'd much rather see something else. Here's why:
1. Current zones that need content, such as Dark Astoria or Boomtown, have concepts behind them that I actually find interesting. Praetoria does not interest me even slightly. I'd like to fight ghosts, monsters or even see the Rikti leveling Boomtown. [I'm assuming thats who leveled it, not being huge on game-lore]. When I think if Praetoria, I think of some guy single-handedly taking down the hamidon....? This does not seem logical to me, and for some reason I can't get past it. No one guy can take down Hamidon, be serious - I don't care if he IS an Incarnate. This is a failure of credibility and logic.
2. I also think of my then-level 19 Controller struggling to take down wave after wave of Vanessa DeVores. You got it in one: I consider current Praetorian content many levels more difficult than it ought to be, and am not thirsting for more of the same.
New Clockwork are cool and Praetoria is a pretty zone. But its not all that interesting. I'd like new zones, or fixes to current unused zones.... but I grow weary of Praetoria. You can call that "haterade" if you like, but what it really is is a wish for something that I find intriguing. I havent said "oooo, cool!" about a new zone's content since the RWZ.
Quote:
Militarily it also serves as great camouflage for a trap designed to lure dissidents into a killzone where they can be easily eliminated. As opposed to hopping from island to island trying to root them out one at a time.
|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Even if you want to say "Recluse would never leave his tower, and so he doesn't care," looking at it *militarily* you wouldn't want someplace, oh, easy to catch fire and that provides *great* hiding places for people working against you.
|
Ah, yes, the "aesthetics" of City of Villains, if I may use the term. This pitfall is what led us into the cardboard cutout world that is Praetoria. Once upon a time, we were given an "evil" world which wasn't so much evil as opposite land to the good world. Where Paragon City was clean, the Rogue Isles were dirty. Where Paragon City was bright and colourful, the Rogue Isles were dark and monochromatic. Where Paragon City appeared to be governed towards prosperity, the Rogue Isles were exploited into a slum. All the while no-one considered that plunging people into a world of unending depression wasn't going to do wonders for morale, and that actual villains might feel like they arrived late to the party.
Enter Praetoria - the polar opposite of the polar opposite world. NOT a good design standpoint, guys. Where the Rogue Isles were dirty, Praetoria is clean. Where the Rogue Isles were dark, Praetoria is bright. Where the Rogue Isles were exploited into a slum, Praetoria is built into a monolithic fascist state. No less a caricature, just a caricature of a different kind.
As far as I'm concerned, Praetorian Earth and the Rogue Isles should always have been two parts of the same side - a villain game. The Rogue Isles should have consisted in part of clean, police state zones where Recluse's control was strong and dirty run-down slums where his control was weak, providing villains with both an environment of strict laws and regulations where they could play the criminal as well as an area of destitute lawlessness where they could play the marauder. This didn't need to constitute two separate "games."
I want to see more villain zones added, preferably one that is ENTIRELY clean on the surface. Call it a Nemesis Island, if not officially, then at least one which looks like an Arachnos stronghold but is run by and staffed with Nemesis automaton replicas of Arachnos soldiers and officials. That would make for some contrast in that damn black-and-white-and-brown environment.
---
Incidentally, while City of Heroes may indeed have "too many zones," it also means I can run three or four characters through the level ranges and almost never run the same content twice. With City of Villains, this isn't possible, as so many level ranges have only one zone to their name.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Ah, yes, the "aesthetics" of City of Villains, if I may use the term. This pitfall is what led us into the cardboard cutout world that is Praetoria. Once upon a time, we were given an "evil" world which wasn't so much evil as opposite land to the good world. Where Paragon City was clean, the Rogue Isles were dirty. Where Paragon City was bright and colourful, the Rogue Isles were dark and monochromatic. Where Paragon City appeared to be governed towards prosperity, the Rogue Isles were exploited into a slum. All the while no-one considered that plunging people into a world of unending depression wasn't going to do wonders for morale, and that actual villains might feel like they arrived late to the party.
Enter Praetoria - the polar opposite of the polar opposite world. NOT a good design standpoint, guys. Where the Rogue Isles were dirty, Praetoria is clean. Where the Rogue Isles were dark, Praetoria is bright. Where the Rogue Isles were exploited into a slum, Praetoria is built into a monolithic fascist state. No less a caricature, just a caricature of a different kind. As far as I'm concerned, Praetorian Earth and the Rogue Isles should always have been two parts of the same side - a villain game. The Rogue Isles should have consisted in part of clean, police state zones where Recluse's control was strong and dirty run-down slums where his control was weak, providing villains with both an environment of strict laws and regulations where they could play the criminal as well as an area of destitute lawlessness where they could play the marauder. This didn't need to constitute two separate "games." I want to see more villain zones added, preferably one that is ENTIRELY clean on the surface. Call it a Nemesis Island, if not officially, then at least one which looks like an Arachnos stronghold but is run by and staffed with Nemesis automaton replicas of Arachnos soldiers and officials. That would make for some contrast in that damn black-and-white-and-brown environment. --- Incidentally, while City of Heroes may indeed have "too many zones," it also means I can run three or four characters through the level ranges and almost never run the same content twice. With City of Villains, this isn't possible, as so many level ranges have only one zone to their name. |
Generally disappointed in you, here, Sam.
Yes, The Rogue Isles has more than its share of blight. It also has mobster villas that are clean and well-cared-for, often directly adjacent to the blight... the symbolism being that the villains care very little for their neighbor, but aren't above carving something nice out for themselves.
The walled area in Mercy, the villa in Port Oakes, Aeon's monument to himself in Cap Au Diable, the Family's little island off of sharkhead, a good half of St. Martial, etc. Each area has its own cleaned-up, prettied up neighborhood that reflects a bit of the personality of the more well-off neighbors. Granted, many are older architecture... not the glass-and-steel of a 'modern city skyscape' and granted that it is under a perpetual cloudy haze, but these parts of the city are very nice, indeed.
Similarly, if you take the time to look at Praetoria, you find that it also fails to live up to your characterization. Sure, Nova Praetoria does... you start the game seeing the beautiful paradise surrounding the god-king Cole himself. As you stray farther from his gaze, though, and into Imperial City you start seeing the more cluttered alleyways, graffiti that isn't removed quite fast enough, and the perpetual construction and re-construction. You start to suspect that there might not be as much to the Utopic picture as originally thought. By the time you get to Neutropolis, the contrast between the "haves" in their nice, pretty, polished neighborhoods and some of the trashier industrial waste sites stands out.
Yes, each side gravitates toward the directions you mention, but the only way to put either place into simple-minded polar extremes is to ignore a great deal of what each city offers.
Quote:
That's really the problem, though. Even the rich villas are dirty, grey and foreboding. The entire game goes for this aesthetic life-lesson that evil, even at its best, is still a thin veneer of surface beauty stretched over the skeleton of corruption and decay, to wax melodramatic for a moment. And the thing is... OK, I get it! One zone would have been enough, several if need be, but the whole damn place is a thinly-disguised hell. The good parts, rather than contrasting the depressing depravity of the rest of the Isles, only serve to depress me MORE.|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
Yes, The Rogue Isles has more than its share of blight. It also has mobster villas that are clean and well-cared-for, often directly adjacent to the blight... the symbolism being that the villains care very little for their neighbor, but aren't above carving something nice out for themselves.
|
Every island and every location in the Rogue Isles is purpose-designed to depress you, either by visceral misery and brutality, or by superimposing the clean world of the rich within line of sight of the rotten slums of the poor, and all drawn in that depressing black and grey and brown monotone. It's about as film noir as it gets without actually involving film noir.
And I don't have a problem with that as a theme, as long as there were CONTRAST. And there really isn't. EVERYTHING to do with villains is nasty, dark and depressing. What's wrong with seeing a successful villain living a good life once in a while without constantly reminding me that he's dead inside? Why is it such a problem to have an entire island where everything is just fine WITHOUT beating me over the head with the fact that it's all an illusion?
I'd have much preferred to see the Rogue Isles consist of a mish-mash of different war lords, each ruling his own island. So Arachnos would rule one, or maybe a few, then there'd be one ruled by a Council conspiracy, then one ruled by a Nemesis puppet state, one representing a Crey-funded settlement, one Cage-run horrible mine pit, you get the idea. That way, we could have had a whole host of themes, each consistent within its island, but none so overbearing that it overtakes the entire side of the game.
If that were the case, then I'd have no problems with Arachnos being the dead-inside slobs who have no problem eating dinner at a nice table next to a mass grave (the de-facto aesthetic of all of the Isles now). This is because this would be superimposed against Crey's gleaming, clean, orderly island that is nevertheless crawling with Crey Security and populated by brainwashed drones who live and breath Crey propaganda. Then you'd have the Cage island that's an overt living hell of poor miners living in shanty towns replete with crime and poverty while the soulless mine company works them to the bone and buries them where they fall. This, against the backdrop of a Council stronghold comprised of barracks, training facilities, weapon factories, laboratories and generally consisting of a Spartan state where everyone lives reasonably well, but is always at war with something. All of this opposed to a Nemesis puppet state where everything is nice and orderly, everyone is genuinely happy and crime doesn't exist, only because half the people are Automatons, criminals aren't arrested but simply replaced in the night and the people get "edited" news.
There's potential for great variety both in visuals and in themes, but instead we get seven islands that may as well be seven times the same island, all telling the same story - crime doesn't pay, and even if you do make money from crime, you're still garbage, just better-dressed.
I haven't missed what CoV represents. I just feel it should have been far more diverse than it really is.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Which is accurate |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The entire game goes for this aesthetic life-lesson that evil, even at its best, is still a thin veneer of surface beauty stretched over the skeleton of corruption and decay
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
I don't often agree with GG, but...|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Which is accurate
|
Yeah. That's pretty much how evil goes in the worlds of comics, cinema and (often) reality.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Quote:
Here's the thing - if you want me to want to BE the villain, you have to offer me something better than "your life sucks" at the end of the tunnel. And it's not really true that that's how it goes, not as an absolute statement. In realistic fiction, yes, but this isn't exactly realism what we have here. Let me explain:|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
That's pretty much how evil goes in the worlds of comics, cinema and (often) reality.
|
There seems to be this idea that "villainy" can only ever be expressed by showing the human suffering and misery it causes. I disagree. I'd much rather focus on the COOL side of villain - building giant tractor beams that pull the moon closer to the earth, devising a spell to reverse time and unleash dinosaurs onto unsuspecting civilians, or even just simply being rich enough to BUY your own country. Yes, all of those still come with human misery and suffering attached, but I don't need to see that. I'm not interested in playing a mass-murdering torturing monster. That's not fun. I'm interested in playing the cool kind of villain who doesn't take backtalk from anyone and who routinely does the impossible because villains just do that as a rule of thumb.
I don't need a life lesson from a game when that life lesson is "don't play this game." If the entirety of the villain-side is built to depress and disgust me and make me not wish to do the things I'm being asked to do... Why the xXx would I want to play it? And, yes, I do mean Vin Deasel's xXx.
I can play a hero and the game can make me good about playing it. Why can't I play a villain and feel good about playing the game, too?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Dude. It sounds like you'd be at home sitting in Lex Luthor's chair. XD|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Here's the thing - if you want me to want to BE the villain, you have to offer me something better than "your life sucks" at the end of the tunnel. And it's not really true that that's how it goes, not as an absolute statement. In realistic fiction, yes, but this isn't exactly realism what we have here. Let me explain:
There seems to be this idea that "villainy" can only ever be expressed by showing the human suffering and misery it causes. I disagree. I'd much rather focus on the COOL side of villain - building giant tractor beams that pull the moon closer to the earth, devising a spell to reverse time and unleash dinosaurs onto unsuspecting civilians, or even just simply being rich enough to BUY your own country. Yes, all of those still come with human misery and suffering attached, but I don't need to see that. I'm not interested in playing a mass-murdering torturing monster. That's not fun. I'm interested in playing the cool kind of villain who doesn't take backtalk from anyone and who routinely does the impossible because villains just do that as a rule of thumb. I don't need a life lesson from a game when that life lesson is "don't play this game." If the entirety of the villain-side is built to depress and disgust me and make me not wish to do the things I'm being asked to do... Why the xXx would I want to play it? And, yes, I do mean Vin Deasel's xXx. I can play a hero and the game can make me good about playing it. Why can't I play a villain and feel good about playing the game, too? |
But again, there have been few instances where evil like that has "won" if you will. I personally enjoy the aspect of being pitted against the outcome of defeat; I will try that much harder to change the supposedly inevitable.
This back-and-forth, however, will end on personal preference. I understand your view, and it's solid. I respect it.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Quote:
Ayup! |
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Dude. It sounds like you'd be at home sitting in Lex Luthor's chair. XD
|
Really, though, I want to say this again - I am in no way criticising the more "realistic" approach to villainy, in that even when villains win, they still lose because they're evil. That's valid and legitimate. I'm just saying that I want to see a variety of approaches so that we can pick and choose our evil. If people want to play the dark and gritty black soul self-loathing murderer, then I will kindly stand aside and let them. But if I want to play the successful, cool, scot-free megalomaniac, then I'd like to have that option, too.
In fact, the depressing side of villainy would be a bit less depressing if it were put within the context of a wider scale of choices. Westin Phipps, for instance, is completely repugnant, but I don't disagree with adding him. I will simply opt to work with Terrance Dobbs or Dr. Forrester if given the choice, and that's OK in my book.
On this note, I feel like the Dean -> Leonard storyline is done pretty well. Sure, it tosses me the idiot ball for a while there, but by the end of the day, even if I haven't really gained much, I ended up screwing Protean harder than he screwed me, and that alone is satisfying. "When all is said and done, I win and you lose. Sucker!" You know what I mean
There's room for all kinds of villainy. I just wish there were LITERALLY room for more, as in more land area that is of a different theme. City of Villains can really do with at least one new zone, and preferably one that isn't under Arachnos' thumb. I mean, Nerva largely isn't, and you can see how nicely that contrasts. Sure, it's not a heaven by any stretch, but it's more... Ordinary than the beat-you-over-the-head moral lessons that the other zones are. It doesn't really have to be a Nemesis zone or a Crey zone. It could be just an independent island out in the bay that isn't important enough for Arachnos to settle.
See, Paragon City already has a lot of variety to it. You have the gleaming and pure blue-sky zones in Atlas Park and Steel Canyon, the dark and gritty ghettos in King's Row and Independence Port, the devastated areas in Boomtown, the pirate island in Striga, the rebuilt disaster area in Faultline, there are options. They aren't quite as many, but it's a collection of thematic choices. I just wish City of Villains offered more choice.
---
By the way, Praetoria DOES offer choice in this regard, especially in Neutropolis, I agree to that extent.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
My question is, why isn't there a hell scenario zone? I know Recluse's Victory is supposed to somewhat be like that, but it just doesn't feel that way if you ask me.
I'd love to see a sentinel like future from the X-Men animated series from the 90's. Everything was in ruins with futuristic prison camps set up amidst all the rubble. Sentinels patrolled the streets and were extremely hostile everywhere you went. I'd love to see giant warwalkers patrolling a section like that in Praetoria maybe with Resistance fighters set on hostile going around, duking it out with them with possibly some reformed Powers Division guys helping them out.
Quote:
We haven't seen much of what the world looks like outside the sonic prison fence yet |
Originally Posted by End Sinister
was in ruins with futuristic prison camps set up amidst all the rubble.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
A 60:40 split as per kotaku article/infographic. While certainly not equal, it is close enough to make intentional content mismatches foolish. And the content in updates has been pretty close to equal. One arc per side, a TF and an SF, some co-op. The problem, for me, is that the co-op content is "heroism, but villains can help". I understand that "heroic" co-op content is far easier to write than "villainous", but they should still try.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Or ever will have - it's just not as popular to be naughty as it is to be nice
 |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Finsplit
To which an appropriate villain response would be: Let them try. Not "Please, Mister Hero, let me tag along with you."
|
The heroes can shed some tears at "regrettable collateral damage", if it makes them feel better.
Vanguard was always presented as doing whatever it takes to secure earth. It is past time to start writing them accordingly.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Well, they did attack Nerva.
|
I do not suffer from altitis, I enjoy every character of it.
Quote:
I'll concede that. There's a grandeur to century(ies)-old structures that isn't in newer construction that often keeps them up and renovated rather than torn down for something new, but the wealthier places often dress things up (and wash/sandblast the grime from the stone surface) when they do this.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That's really the problem, though. Even the rich villas are dirty, grey and foreboding. The entire game goes for this aesthetic life-lesson that evil, even at its best, is still a thin veneer of surface beauty stretched over the skeleton of corruption and decay, to wax melodramatic for a moment. And the thing is... OK, I get it! One zone would have been enough, several if need be, but the whole damn place is a thinly-disguised hell. The good parts, rather than contrasting the depressing depravity of the rest of the Isles, only serve to depress me MORE.
|
I'd prefer if they did more to CoV to address that. Imagine the Family villa done up for a good Godfather-like wedding. Shiny classic cars, windows adorned with decorations and banners, etc. Stress the idea that money lives there.
Then have a multistage zone event around it where you can help the marcones "clear out the rifraff" on the streets leading up to there (with optional sidequests to perhaps profit more directly off their visitors)
Quote:
I would take any numbers from the Kotaku article with a grain of salt. The XP/Inf numbers need to be multiplied by at least 1000 to have any sort of accuracy.|
Originally Posted by Charcoal_EU
A 60:40 split as per kotaku article/infographic. While certainly not equal, it is close enough to make intentional content mismatches foolish. And the content in updates has been pretty close to equal. One arc per side, a TF and an SF, some co-op. The problem, for me, is that the co-op content is "heroism, but villains can help". I understand that "heroic" co-op content is far easier to write than "villainous", but they should still try.
|
Similarly the 60:40 split does not seem to play out in game, I would guess it's closer to 80:20.
Quote:
Ooo, can we, please? I'd feel a lot better about villains tagging along on Vigilante missions than on heroic missions. Besides, there isn't really any Vigilante content in the game, and now that it's a legitimate alignment, there should be. Vanguard would be a good group to hand some out.
|
Originally Posted by Charcoal_EU
You know what would be fun? Keyes Island trial where we get to blow up those reactors. Not shut down safely but make them blow. Because it will ruin Neutropolis and kill thousands. It is time that Praetorians learned the power and the will of Primal Earth. And as the center of research, technology and military in Praetoria, Neutropolis is a target worth hitting without restraint.
The heroes can shed some tears at "regrettable collateral damage", if it makes them feel better. Vanguard was always presented as doing whatever it takes to secure earth. It is past time to start writing them accordingly. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
The Trials are co-op, so they have to be something all 4 alignments can do - the Anti-Matter Trial will be heroic, just like the rest of the co-op content against Tyrant and his loyalist thugs.
|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Ooo, can we, please? I'd feel a lot better about villains tagging along on Vigilante missions than on heroic missions. Besides, there isn't really any Vigilante content in the game, and now that it's a legitimate alignment, there should be. Vanguard would be a good group to hand some out.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Not at all. If you run Anti-Matter's arcs in Praetoria, you find out that the reactors blowing would annihilate all of Praetoria, and even better, knock out power to most of remaining civilization.|
Originally Posted by Charcoal_EU
You know what would be fun? Keyes Island trial where we get to blow up those reactors. Not shut down safely but make them blow. Because it will ruin Neutropolis and kill thousands.
|
Blowing up those reactors would quite literally spell the end of Praetoria.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
What could be more heroic than torching the cowardly sheep that refuse to stand up against the evil Tyrant and his loyalist thugs? Burn them all, sow salt and be sure to remember to laugh uproariously just before the ending credits. Everyone's a hero!
Bonus points for any pre-explosion puns - anything about 'over-reacting' is likely to be gold.
Quote:
I've highlighted the problem with this idea. T-for-Teen rating and all that... not really gonna fly. And of course, that goes into the whole issue of "How does that make us any better than them?" and all of that. Which, considering the magnitude of yesterday's events in Pakistan, is a rather topical subject right now...|
Originally Posted by Charcoal_EU
You know what would be fun? Keyes Island trial where we get to blow up those reactors. Not shut down safely but make them blow. Because it will ruin Neutropolis and kill thousands. It is time that Praetorians learned the power and the will of Primal Earth. And as the center of research, technology and military in Praetoria, Neutropolis is a target worth hitting without restraint.
The heroes can shed some tears at "regrettable collateral damage", if it makes them feel better. Vanguard was always presented as doing whatever it takes to secure earth. It is past time to start writing them accordingly. |
My own personal issue with this idea is balancing MMO game mechanics vs. realism of the in-game story. In the current trials, a "win" is awarded when either one of the facilities is successfully shut down, but not destroyed. This allows for a caveat: the content needs to be repeatable, so it is easy to say that the Praetorians rebuilt the place between the now and the last time you attacked (even though sometimes that is a matter of seconds :P ) It would feel very unrealistic if we destroyed all of the reactors on Keyes Island, then started the trial over again 1 minute later and find them standing there again.
Now, having gotten all the logical and reasonable stuff off my chest... I LOVE the idea of a more villainous/sinister (but optional) path to complete these trials. I whole-heartedly agree with that.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
I have few hopes for the new zone but some interesting comments about the existing content and zones.
The biggest problem with many of the arguments about "the bad guys" is simply this: Nobody ever sets out to be evil. Even the most heinous dictators in history had an argument (however warped) that they had to take some damnably tough decisions for the greater good. Cole, Recluse and even Statesman believe they are on the right side! Very few people accumulate power for its own sake. They want to actually take that power and use it to fulfill their vision of a greater good.
The biggest problem with that notion in this game is the one who fails most is Statesman because he has no vision, fails to even be reactionary and stands for a big fat zilch. He actually holds Paragon back in the face of adversity rather than protecting it - and that's not a accusation you can level at Old King or Spidey
Thelonious Monk
Quote:
Yeah, that's kind of what I mean. In fact, if you watch any of the older Italian Mafia documentaries, a lot of people talk about how they were lured in by the promise of a good life, a nice house, shiny cars, pretty women, good living and all that. I mean, I'm sure there are people who get into crime for the killing and the maiming and the puppy-kicking, but there ought to be at least some instance of the opposite side of this. That sometimes, crime does pay for some people and they do get to live the good life in luxury and style, even for a little while.|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
I'd prefer if they did more to CoV to address that. Imagine the Family villa done up for a good Godfather-like wedding. Shiny classic cars, windows adorned with decorations and banners, etc. Stress the idea that money lives there.
|
And, of course, there's also the "villain with style" archetype. You know the kind - would strangle his own grandmother (to quote Marauder) for a profit and wouldn't think twice to torch a few Asian villages or commit genocide on a few African countries, but if you meet him face-to-face, he's the cleanest, most polite, most presentable guy in the world.
Sure, the Verandi Mooks are kind of slobs, always running around in their tank tops and bowler hats, so I can't expect them to run a clean neighbourhood, but the Marcone guys are always strutting around in fancy suits and stylin' hats and livin' the high life. I could certainly see their "turf" being cleaner and more festive-looking.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
And that's the thing about real-world villainy: often the bad guys live in opulent splendor while the ordinary citizens live in conditions ranging from lower-class crime-ridden neighborhoods to absolute squalor. We see that over and over again, from the USSR to Il Duce's Italy to 1950's Viet Nam to Idi Amin's Uganda to the Philippines under Ferdinand Marcos to Saddam's Iraq to Apartheid-era South Africa to current-day Brazil, Mexico and any number of central African countries. There are plenty of areas of those places where people lived/live decent lives in fairly nice surroundings, be they towns, cities or suburban neighborhoods. But the truly evil had palaces while millions lived crappy lives in vast slums.|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
I'll concede that. There's a grandeur to century(ies)-old structures that isn't in newer construction that often keeps them up and renovated rather than torn down for something new, but the wealthier places often dress things up (and wash/sandblast the grime from the stone surface) when they do this.
I'd prefer if they did more to CoV to address that. Imagine the Family villa done up for a good Godfather-like wedding. Shiny classic cars, windows adorned with decorations and banners, etc. Stress the idea that money lives there. |
It'd be nice if the Rogue Isles resembled that sort of thing more, with some really squalid areas contrasting to some really nice areas. I think part of the issue was that the FPS is really about the post-apocalyptic wasteland, and there is a ton of that flavor in CoV, unfortunately.
Quote:
| Then have a multistage zone event around it where you can help the marcones "clear out the rifraff" on the streets leading up to there (with optional sidequests to perhaps profit more directly off their visitors) |
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
Quote:
And running off those who would degrade the quality of life.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Yeah, that's kind of what I mean. In fact, if you watch any of the older Italian Mafia documentaries, a lot of people talk about how they were lured in by the promise of a good life, a nice house, shiny cars, pretty women, good living and all that. I mean, I'm sure there are people who get into crime for the killing and the maiming and the puppy-kicking, but there ought to be at least some instance of the opposite side of this. That sometimes, crime does pay for some people and they do get to live the good life in luxury and style, even for a little while.
And, of course, there's also the "villain with style" archetype. You know the kind - would strangle his own grandmother (to quote Marauder) for a profit and wouldn't think twice to torch a few Asian villages or commit genocide on a few African countries, but if you meet him face-to-face, he's the cleanest, most polite, most presentable guy in the world. Sure, the Verandi Mooks are kind of slobs, always running around in their tank tops and bowler hats, so I can't expect them to run a clean neighbourhood, but the Marcone guys are always strutting around in fancy suits and stylin' hats and livin' the high life. I could certainly see their "turf" being cleaner and more festive-looking. |
(I really should've read to the end of the thread, because we're making similar points.)
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
St. Martial - Straight out from the Giza there's a section of road *completely missing.* This, of any area, is where you'd have tourists come in and spend money, which they won't if it looks like garbage. Yes, the zone is "compressed" somewhat, but still - any list of areas that should be "clean and shiny" and in great repair should include a good chunk of this zone. No burning garbage piles right in sight of the big pyramid.
Grandville - This is the *capitol.* Recluse's lair. The "Most fortified city in the world." All reasons NOT to have broken down buildings, garbage and vagrants in it! Even if you want to say "Recluse would never leave his tower, and so he doesn't care," looking at it *militarily* you wouldn't want someplace, oh, easy to catch fire and that provides *great* hiding places for people working against you.
I'm not going to argue that there isn't room for improvement, for redside or any other aspect of the game. But when it comes right down to it, the devs are never going to please everyone.
"Home is where, when you have to go there, they have to let you in."