new patch, very rares, sideways conversion... not!
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2011-04-26 13:30 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
It took me a minute to catch what was wrong. I thought you were complaining about the thread cost (which, while ridiculous, was fully documented in the patch notes).
Then I saw it, and I laughed.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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So, um, it doesn't give you a pop-up to select what you want it to convert into? Have you not even tried it?
Oh wow.. Classic!
*slowclaps*
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Now that I've looked at the Rare screen, I think I get it now, but it's extremely not intuitive.
Or, it might just be me....
<.<
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Seeing that I can only assume it comes up with a very-rare reward table so you can select which one you want after you press the Create button. If so be careful what you pick! 
Yup, no mistake here. I like it MUCH better than scrolling through an endless list of conversion possibilities.
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I can't try, I have no very rares, but yes, after looking at the rares conversion screen I see how it works now. |
Originally Posted by DeProgrammer
So, um, it doesn't give you a pop-up to select what you want it to convert into? Have you not even tried it?
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As I said, not very intuitive though.
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I did a downgrade Uncommon (Spell Book one) got a pop up of the Common table and got to choose my Nanotech one. Worked fine for me.
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All they have to do is change "Create" to "Downgrade" or "Sidegrade", and it's easily understood.
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Originally Posted by momentary_grace
I can't try, I have no very rares, but yes, after looking at the rares conversion screen I see how it works now.
As I said, not very intuitive though. |
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Yep, I figured you'd get a reward window when the downgrade description said "your choice" but no choice was presented. I like the way they did it, it saves scrolling and will probably save some people some misclicks.
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Originally Posted by Blood_Beret
I did a downgrade Uncommon (Spell Book one) got a pop up of the Common table and got to choose my Nanotech one. Worked fine for me.
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Yes, you will get a Very Rare reward table after you click the Create button.
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Originally Posted by Golden_Avariel
Seeing that I can only assume it comes up with a very-rare reward table so you can select which one you want after you press the Create button. If so be careful what you pick!
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The side conversion was, I thought, supposed to be a solution to the obviously gratuitous penalty for selecting the wrong item, in a crafting system wherein different components of the same tier have no functional difference. Players are basically forced to write out an exhaustive list of all the components they need before they run trials, or else risk wasting their time for no good reason. The flavor text cart is pulling the gameplay horse.
I've seen many people express the above sentiment much better than I ever could in the countless forum threads leading up to this long-awaited patch, and yet here we are. There shouldn't be a meaningfully high thread cost for side conversions.
Oh, and yeah, that screenie the OP posted is totally counter-intuitive. The best thing you could add to a needlessly complex system, one that features frequent and irrevocable choices, is a head-scratching user interface. Not.
I applaud that the patch went through so quickly. Not thrilled about some of the details.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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I don't write down what I need. I wait till it's offered and then bring up the create screen to see what I need to pick.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
The side conversion was, I thought, supposed to be a solution to the obviously gratuitous penalty for selecting the wrong item, in a crafting system wherein different components of the same tier have no functional difference. Players are basically forced to write out an exhaustive list of all the components they need before they run trials, or else risk wasting their time for no good reason. The flavor text cart is pulling the gameplay horse.
I've seen many people express the above sentiment much better than I ever could in the countless forum threads leading up to this long-awaited patch, and yet here we are. There shouldn't be a meaningfully high thread cost for side conversions. Oh, and yeah, that screenie the OP posted is totally counter-intuitive. The best thing you could add to a needlessly complex system, one that features frequent and irrevocable choices, is a head-scratching user interface. Not. I applaud that the patch went through so quickly. Not thrilled about some of the details. |
You don't have to write down a list since your character carries it on them at all times. All you have to do is bind a key to bring up the incarnate screen and choose what you want to do first.
So a same-level sideways conversion costs 150 threads?
Really? REALLY?
That's... a rather steep conversion cost. In fact, it seems almost laughable, if not insulting, if that's supposed to be a serious attempt to provide a "reasonable" cost for converting one UR component to another.
Of course, we also still have the absurd INF costs for the high-end components, which effectively price the 4th Tier components out of reach of I'd guess 90% of the casual players and probably half of the hardcore players.
I know that I'm not the only one who's pointed out repeatedly that these prices are really only feasible for farmers. In fact, the complaints about the INF costs have been second only to complaints about the rewards drops. So why don't we even get an acknowledgement that anyone has so much as heard this?
K
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Originally Posted by LISAR
I don't write down what I need. I wait till it's offered and then bring up the create screen to see what I need to pick.
You don't have to write down a list since your character carries it on them at all times. All you have to do is bind a key to bring up the incarnate screen and choose what you want to do first. |
I agree with LISAR...this is what I do...*shrugs*
And uh...I'm slow or something because I don't "get" what's wrong in the picture. Only thing I see is that to get a Living Relic (or whatever) V. Rare comp. you need to have a Living Relic comp. Did I miss anything else?
Edit: I see what's wrong....you have too many threads! Send them to me!
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The user interface is very clunky. Yes, you can make do with it, but once you get past a certain point it becomes ridiculous to click back and forth from this-or-that recipe screen, referring constantly to your salvage window. Meanwhile, the reward screen looms large behind everything, reminding you that you should hurry up.|
Originally Posted by LISAR
I don't write down what I need. I wait till it's offered and then bring up the create screen to see what I need to pick.
You don't have to write down a list since your character carries it on them at all times. All you have to do is bind a key to bring up the incarnate screen and choose what you want to do first. |
Consider a tier 4 recipe. You have to look at your salvage screen to see what you already have, and then, one by one, compare what you have to the T1, T2, and T3 options available. Then you have to refer to several different T4 recipes to figure out which T3 is the best to craft given your available salvage. Then you have to click over to the crafting menu and to convert threads into the relevant components that you're missing. If you're short on shards and (like me, at least prior to this patch) overflowing with unnecessary Uncommons and Rares, you have to keep a running tally of which is safe to breakdown or not. All of this, just to decide which reward to take at the end of a trial that you have to repeat dozens of times.
I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying that it's needlessly complicated. And yes, it's much, much easier to write out a list ahead of time. That in itself is a failure of the design; the fact that there's no functional purpose behind the different types of same-tier salvage other than punishing players for picking the wrong item is just insult added to injury. Or injury added to insult, however you wanna look at it.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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You do realize that under rare circumstances you can get a random incarnate salvage drop? Plus what if you took a rare or very rare drop, but before you used it you changed your mind about the upgrade you were going to do and decided to do a different one which required a different piece of r/vr salvage.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
The side conversion was, I thought, supposed to be a solution to the obviously gratuitous penalty for selecting the wrong item, in a crafting system wherein different components of the same tier have no functional difference. Players are basically forced to write out an exhaustive list of all the components they need before they run trials, or else risk wasting their time for no good reason. The flavor text cart is pulling the gameplay horse.
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Originally Posted by LISAR
I don't write down what I need. I wait till it's offered and then bring up the create screen to see what I need to pick.
You don't have to write down a list since your character carries it on them at all times. All you have to do is bind a key to bring up the incarnate screen and choose what you want to do first. |
I keep mine in the same power bar as my incarnate powers.
My real gripe about Incarnate salvage was ending up with so many uncommon pieces and they really aren't needed all that much compared to common. To get a tier 4 you need a total of 1 Very Rare, 2 Rare, 2 Uncommon, and 16 Common. At least now getting an Uncommon isn't too bad since you can convert it to Common which you probably need more.
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Then you'd be boned by the flavor text. Which is kinda the point.
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Originally Posted by Ssyrie
Plus what if you took a rare or very rare drop, but before you used it you changed your mind about the upgrade you were going to do and decided to do a different one which required a different piece of r/vr salvage.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
I agree with LISAR...this is what I do...*shrugs*
And uh...I'm slow or something because I don't "get" what's wrong in the picture. Only thing I see is that to get a Living Relic (or whatever) V. Rare comp. you need to have a Living Relic comp. Did I miss anything else? Edit: I see what's wrong....you have too many threads! Send them to me! |
hehehehe... no such luck, sorry.
Actually there's nothing wrong, per se. I thought there was when I looked at it at first, and I did look for more than thirty seconds, but my brain didn't click to what was expected. I did think I had to have a Living Relic to create a Living Relic. It's okay, point and laugh. I don't mind.
I did figure it out, hence the "EDIT" on my original post, and my follow up post.
Someone asked didn't I even *try* it, but as you can see in the screenie, I couldn't have - no VRs in my bucket.
I do feel dumb for not getting the interface and having to have it explained, but... as obvious as it seemed to some folks, it wasn't to me.
I'm kind of surprised there's a discussion continuing.
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Its actually only about 10% the crafting cost of the item per item. Which means a sideways conversion preserves 90% of the value of the item.|
Originally Posted by Kurrent
That's... a rather steep conversion cost.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying that it's needlessly complicated. And yes, it's much, much easier to write out a list ahead of time. That in itself is a failure of the design; the fact that there's no functional purpose behind the different types of same-tier salvage other than punishing players for picking the wrong item is just insult added to injury. Or injury added to insult, however you wanna look at it.
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I still disagree with the idea that a sideways conversion costs significantly more than the breakdown worth of the item. It feels like a serious disconnect in determining the worth of any component. Besides which, breakdown amounts seem completely random. I'm not sure who came up with the numbers, but they don't follow any pattern.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
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Originally Posted by momentary_grace
hehehehe... no such luck, sorry.
Actually there's nothing wrong, per se. I thought there was when I looked at it at first, and I did look for more than thirty seconds, but my brain didn't click to what was expected. I did think I had to have a Living Relic to create a Living Relic. It's okay, point and laugh. I don't mind. I did figure it out, hence the "EDIT" on my original post, and my follow up post. Someone asked didn't I even *try* it, but as you can see in the screenie, I couldn't have - no VRs in my bucket. I do feel dumb for not getting the interface and having to have it explained, but... as obvious as it seemed to some folks, it wasn't to me. I'm kind of surprised there's a discussion continuing. |
Ah okay I understand now; you give the system a Living Relic and 150 threads and then you get the pop-up window for what V. Rare comp. you want....yeah a bit convoluted in the way it's worded but....*shrugs*
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Personally, I think you're making it complicated for yourself. When I get the reward table I immediately pull up the incarnate window and see if I need any of that salvage for the power I was wanting to upgrade. The recipe will show you what salvage you need but don't have. And I don't even worry about the Tier 4* unless I get a Very Rare drop, or already have two Tier 3's for that power. If I don't need the salvage for that power then I'll check a second one to see if it's needed there. My average time to make my decision, 10 seconds at most.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying that it's needlessly complicated. And yes, it's much, much easier to write out a list ahead of time. That in itself is a failure of the design; the fact that there's no functional purpose behind the different types of same-tier salvage other than punishing players for picking the wrong item is just insult added to injury. Or injury added to insult, however you wanna look at it.
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Actually there is a functional purpose for having different types of same tier salvage. It's to keep the vast majority of the player base from complaining about yet another type of currency. Think about it, what's the functional purpose of invention salvage? Nothing. Plus, given how little salvage there is at each level there is rarely a wrong choice. You'll probably need it for another power later on.
* To create a Tier 4 you need 2 Common salvage, 1 Very Rare salvage, and any 2 Tier 3's from that tree. As long as you're happy with your first Tier 3, exactly what the 2nd one is isn't very important. You just need to build it.
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Ok, after looking at the patch notes, I see that it's 10%. My bad.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
With those conversion costs you could argue that the system rewards foresight, but only by ten percent. Even if you pick the wrong thing every time, your costs will not be more than ten percent higher than the person that picks the right thing every time. That's not a huge disparity to provide a meaningful but not excessive benefit to either being lucky and getting what you happen to need or planning ahead enough to pick what you need consistently.
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Still, it's only 10% of the cost if people are actually paying that cost. The sideways costs for Common, Uncommon, and even Rare range from trivial to acceptable, because it's at least plausible that a lot of people would pursue them through brute-force thread conversions -- but using threads to buy Very Rares seems to be very heavily discouraged. If I got the Very Rare through a reward table or through a straight-up Empyrean Merit trade, then it's hard to look at 150 threads as a minor proportional expense. (Actually, don't E-Merits break down into 20 threads? So 30 * 20 = 600, which means that the sideways conversion can be considered as much as 25% of the cost, if you're using the seemingly approved method for obtaining Very Rares.)
On the other hand, you don't need very many Very Rares, and you probably should be expected to select them carefully.
Frankly, I'm more annoyed with the underlying design that seems to prioritize flavor text over functionality than I am with these conversion costs.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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I can't be the first person to notice this....
This is going to make VR conversions kind of impossible....
EDIT: okay my bad, but really.... a few words of text to explain would hurt?
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