new patch, very rares, sideways conversion... not!

I have no problems with it's design. The only problems I had with it was figuring out where everything was the first time I opened the Incarnate window.

And if you find the whole thing too complicated than maybe your approach to using it is flawed. I originally tried making lists and doing it the same way you did, but found that by focusing on a single power I never used the lists I had carefully constructed. If more random drops occurred then maybe keeping track of what you need beyond the next upgrade or two would be helpful. But since you get to chose or craft practically every piece of salvage you need, if you only worry about one or two upgrades there's a whole lot less to keep track of and less chance of choosing the wrong piece.

Truly, you have a dizzying capacity to proclaim the irrelevant. I'm sorry that you missed your flight, but frankly, your story doesn't even rate as a decent analogy. You're comparing a functionally meaningless choice in a game to a reservation you made with a real-life service. Honestly, I get a little tired of people dog-piling on how everything in their life should be perfect, irrespective of the effort, skill, or inconvenience that goes into providing the various, often-times freaking miraculous services in question.

You made the wrong reservation to ride in a cushioned chair, in a climate-controlled room, in a giant metal contraption -- through the freaking sky at blinding speed. If you arsed up the flight you wanted to take, even if it was the fault of the airline's website or whatever, it's still just a tad understandable that they might not have been able to fix it for you in time.

This is a game. No one else can possibly be inconvenienced if I happen to hit the wrong button in a mandatory reward screen that pops up at the end of every endlessly repeated trial. More importantly, choices in a game should be meaningful, but they should also serve some useful purpose. There is no depth or true complexity to the Incarnate crafting system. What passes for complexity in the Incarnate crafting system is entirely a contrivance, based purely on misplaced and over-important flavor text. For all that you and others want to criticize me (as proxy for anyone who may have picked the wrong option), on the basis that I'm too unfocused or too lazy to deserve the reward that the game saw fit to reward me -- I could just as easily accuse you of being naive and shallow for accepting the arbitrary flavor-text distinctions among crafting components as if they add richness and depth to our long-awaited end-game system.

Neither of those is a reasonable or relevant rebuttal in this discussion. You have once again proven unresponsive. You refuse to answer the important questions, and instead content yourself with oblique personal attacks. The only reason I even bothered to respond to this post of yours was that I wanted to get that airplane rant off my chest.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

I can't log into the game at the moment, but if I recall correctly, the equivalent thread cost in Empyrean Merits for a Very Rare is 600 (30 E-Merits * the 20 Threads you can get for an E-Merit).

That seems like a more reasonable starting point to me, given that the system seems designed purposely to discourage the pure-thread approach to Very Rare components. The presumed price should be based on the presumed method of advancement, which is running trials.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

Fair enough. What percentage of the total value of the Very Rare component would you assign the 150 thread conversion cost? Its not enough to say its high, since the value of the drop is also indeterminately high. It I specifically said "set the conversion cost to be 10% of the value of the drop" what would you have set it to?

And before you say you wouldn't set it to that value in the first place, that's just a means to the end of determining how you value the drop. Ultimately, a reward system designer must place an objective value on the drop, an objective value on the cost of conversion, and calculate the single specific value that the game will decide to value those things at, because ultimately the game has to pick one specific system and go with it, no matter how subjective that system may be.

If the post above yours is any indication, 60 would be more reasonable (presumably, 16 for rares, 6 for uncommons, 2 for commons).

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

That's sort of tossing me into the opposite corner from Uberguy. Who would break down Empyrean merits into threads when their value is much higher - about twice as high - if they are used to directly buy either rares or very rares (I think its 20-24, so the average is 22).

If you had actually read what I wrote, you would see that I didn't miss my flight, but missed Preview Night. And it is a perfect analogy. By picking the wrong flight I was delayed in getting to San Diego. By picking the wrong salvage you could be delayed in crafting a power you wanted. So by simply clicking the wrong selection causes the person some sort of delay.

But since you obviously don't plan on actually fully reading and comprehending what people are saying, I'm just going to leave you to your stubbornness and constant whining about a system that plenty of people have learned how to make work for them.

I don't personally have problems with Windows Vista. Doesn't mean it's well-designed. Just ask Windows 7.

Are you capable of thinking on a level that extends beyond your own personal problems? Can you examine something rationally without having an emotional stake in the outcome of your examination? Oh, wait:

Obviously, you can't. More oblique personal attacks. Later dude.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

I think I would need to understand more about the intent of the cost mechanism. However, in order to not completely sidestep your question, I'll assume that the intent is simply to add overhead and take the player some more time to get to their goal. That means I need to use a 10% overhead and convert my "expected" time-to-obtain a Very Rare into Threads.

I don't have very good stats for this, but I estimate I have gotten a Very Rare on average about once per 15 trials. I earn about 5-8 Threads outright and about 5-7 Astral Merits (that does depend on the Trial I run). That's 375 -540 Threads equivalent. I probably got an Uncommon about 13 times in 15. For every Very Rare I get, I need to keep two Uncommon components, and I can break down the rest. Assume I get 9 Threads per breakdown, and that adds up to 492 - 657 Threads. Splitting that range (not necessarily a good target) gives about 575. One 10th of that would be around 58, which I would probably round up to 60.

Which is an impressive and wholly accidental alignment with Dispari's number.

Edit: Before I got distracted by matching Dispari's value, I had meant to add that I have no clear indication that this number is a good basis in general. It's a good basis for me based on my own luck getting Very Rares across three characters. Since I can't know that my luck is representative, I don't feel comfortable with that number of 60 as a firm recommendation. It's just what I had rough stats I could use to produce some number.

I did.

Got impatient and already had the Very Rares I needed. My bottleneck was always Commons -- or if you prefer, threads.

E-Merits are worth more than their thread breakdown value, because earning them is time-gated. I don't believe it's fair to gauge their value based on the thread cost of high-end components, though. Surely there's a good middle ground between 10% of 600, and 10% of 1300+.

I think your original idea -- charging 10% of the thread cost for sideways conversion of components -- is very a good one for components that people are actually likely to buy with threads. It's just a matter of figuring out what the most appropriate value for high-end components should be, given the most common methods for earning them.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

That's an interesting way to attempt to value the cost of conversion: not as a percentage of the value of the VR itself, but as a percentage of the value of everything else you earn while earning the VR. Its a variation on attempting to measure opportunity cost, but it has a noteworthy twist.

Consider this odd paradox. Suppose the devs were to leave the drop rate of VRs fixed, increased the drop rate of Rares, and decreased the drop rate of uncommons and commons to compensate. That would mean in the time it took to get one Very Rare, you'd also get more stuff than you were getting before. What's interesting specifically is that with a higher preponderance of rares, it would be *easier* to make VRs, which makes VRs themselves intrinsicly less valuable. But by your methodology, the crafting cost for a lateral conversion would go *up*.

It suggests to me that connecting crafting costs to the relative value of everything except the thing itself being converted might only appear to generate reasonable numbers by coincidence, but the methodology itself would generate strange results if the reward system was only moderately modified.

Really? Picking between four choices baffles you? Really? Why are you running all those trials for something you don't even know that you want?

There are 4 choices of rares, 4 choices of very rares, that's not complicated. The system is painfully simple.

I mean are the people who are getting baffled by this able to get an accolade, to craft an IO, to follow the directions to finish a task force? Do the epic power pools cause you to have a psychotic episode? I mean even for scrappers that's 4 different pools with 5 different choices. Primary powers, which can not be changed, for a mastermind fall at six, do you find that you need a spread sheet to pick one?

Yes...

And I'd thank you not to bring it up! *can't level up Kheldians past level 41*

I agree. Measuring it as I did would definitely require revisiting the 10% conversion cost's equivalent value (measured as something like opportunity cost) if you actually changed, well, the opportunity cost.

As with many things we've seen in the game, I suspect the devs just have to look at stuff like that, consider the various ways that players might valuate some obtainable thing, possibly consider which are more likely to be used (if they can foresee that), and choose a value that's a good compromise between the outcomes, maybe weighted by some fudge factor for expected frequency of use.

They can ignore all that, just pick the way they prefer to think about the cost (which I think may be how we got the 150 Thread side conversion price) and go with that, but I think that can end up out of synch with how the players actually end up interacting with the system.

That can cut both ways. In this case it seems to be considered prohibitively expensive by at least some players who think of the cost in a way different from that the Devs used. In other cases, the Devs might choose the valuation method that ends up seeming ridiculously cheap to players, and way more players opt to "pay" for (and thus obtain) the item faster than expected. I don't think there's a right answer. I just think there's an answer that aligns best with how I think it makes the most sense to valuate the item in practice. Well, actually I always think that answer is the right one. But I think folks know what I mean.

I would because I have excess rare and very rares and nowhere near enough commons.

I did much the same, since I had all the rares I needed for tier 3's and no interest in the tier 4's. With my alt-itis and limited play time, I'm doing enough to get the level shifts and moving on. If I happen to later stumble into enough to get a T4... more fun for me.

I don't think anyone here is baffled. That's the second time you've used that kind of terminology (baffled, frozen with indecision) to describe what people have said, and I think I'd like to see you quote another poster who used the word "baffled" when describing their objections to this system.

Since I know you can't actually do that, instead of leaving the matter there, I think I'll just point out some reasons I think you might actually be doing by posting that particular description.

1. You aren't a native English speaker, and are having trouble using the right words to describe what you really mean.
2. You understand and use English just fine, but cannot conceive of an explanation for objection to this system other than that the people opposed to it are actually baffled by it. Given say, mine or Obitus' command of things like sentence structure, vocabulary, and at least basic math (I don't think any algebra was actually wielded in this thread), I wonder if it strikes you as likely that we would be baffled by the choices in the Incarnate reward windows.
3. You are constructing a argument based on logical fallacy, attempting to make your own objections to the complaints look better through a not so subtle effort to cast our positions in terms we never used. Depending on how one reads it, you could be forming a straw man argument (saying we described being baffled when we never did) or a loose ad hominem (we're so dumb we're baffled by a simple system, so our arguments aren't worth listening to).

No one who has posted in this thread more than a couple of times has expressed any irrational fears of the reward window, or a terribly intellectual inability to deal with it. What has been said is that it's relatively easy to screw up with it, screwing up has a cost that seems high to correct, and there's no compelling reason it should be so costly. What we get from you is "it being costly doesn't affect me." That's not a very strong position of defense for the way it is. You see, I am fairly careful with the interface, and there are decent odds I will never have to side convert any salvage into another salvage of the same rarity as long as I don't pick a reward while half asleep or while Gaming Under the Influence. I still think it is too costly to side convert salvage for no particularly good reason.

There's an interesting psychological study about where if you already know the answer to something, it seems like it should be obvious for anyone else.

The system is very simple to you and I, because we already know the answer and are familiar with it. But just glancing at it without a guide or any prior knowledge and it can be confusing. For one, it's different from the Alpha system (both in number of components and needed component types for various things), so even if you're used to the Alpha system it's different. It uses entirely new things, and none of them are actually marked for rank when you're looking at recipes. So if you're a new person and you're looking at components needed, let's say you see you need:

Super Kangaroo
Omega Waffle
Superior Hangover
Extreme Flavor
Ultra Dogfight
Mega Jack-in-the-Box
Dynamic Sugarcane
Fantastic Lemon
Amazing Submarine

Okay. First off you have no idea what any of those are because it's all brand new and totally greek to you. You don't know the ranks of them or how many you need for what thing. Is Extreme Flavor common or rare? If you're randomly given an uncommon, how many total do you need? Now add to that you have a possible 32 powers to pick from which all have various permutations and perks and nuances. Without doing any research do you actually know what you're doing? Is it even fair to expect players to sit around researching? Not every player enjoys that sort of thing and prefers to cross bridges when they get there.

There's a lot more to it than just looking at the chart. If you really haven't been digging around in beta or reading guides, you have no clue where to begin. If you run one trial and are given a rare, what do you do? You have no idea what slot you're getting first. You have no idea which powers you're taking within those slots. You have no idea what branch you're taking within those powers. Which power is best for your character? Which branch is best for your character? You may know the answer to these questions, but let's imagine we insert a totally new system that you know literally nothing about. Are you getting Hybrid or Genesis first? Is it worth taking Genesis to very rare? Which Genesis branch are you going to take? Is Partial Radial better suited to your character than Total Radial? How many rare components do you need for Genesis?

Now, I knew what powers and branches all of my characters were taking before i20 beta. So this is no problem for me. Because I'm that type of person and I do lots of research and spend time on beta. But I have plenty of friends who, when faced with the reward table for the first time, went "Huh?" Though, I guess all my friends are idiots according to you since they didn't already have a spreadsheet set up. Really, they could've made 256 distinct commons just for the hell of it, so none are actually repeated in recipes, to really make sure that people are paying attention when they pick stuff. Would that have been a better idea?

Essentially, although I know this was never the intention or goal, it feels to me like the purpose of having multiple rares and very rares that you have to pay to change only serves to punish players pointlessly. Just for kicks. In fact, considering literally 100% of all the rewards come from one task, they actually could've gotten away with [Common Component] and only had one of each tier. It would literally be the same end result, just without the added "player has to make sure they know what they're doing before they do it" part. As I said before, at least with Alpha there was a purpose and reason. In this case, it's completely unnecessary and only serves to confuse people for no reason. Add to that a tax for picking the wrong thing and you've got yourself an eyeroller of a system.

Even ignoring all that? It's not too terribly difficult to sneeze and click the wrong button.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Yes. Or no. It was simple the very first time I saw it too. You pick 1 of 4(or 8) items of a list and match it to the one you need, I fail to see how pen and paper are needed in that.

The only thing confusing about this whole incarnate crafting system is seeing how many people are being confused by something so simple ...

I agree the interface could've been a bit more fluid, but I really fail to see how the basic crafting system is to much for anyone to grasp.

Because, as I said, if you get a rare or very rare early on, you may not even know which slots you're doing, much less which power or branch. If you got a common, it's hard to go wrong with [Arcane Catnip], but if you don't even know which Destiny you're going to take, you can't really make a decision about which rare to take.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

Look closer.

Hint: The game is telling him that the recipe for, say, a Living Relic, requires a Living Relic.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

OMG, Jack, it gets worse. Some players even want to be able to change their power picks! And even the Villain APP they selected! And they want real numbers to be able to base their choices on, even. Can't allow that.


I have no ill feelings toward the developers, but the system is a cluttered mess. Worse than that, its a cluttered mess that exists solely to make use of some extra art icons. There is no reason why side conversion should need to exist, because there is no reason that different pieces of salvage at the same tier need to exist. I LOLed earlier when someone called the Incarnate system "more complex than IOs." The system is extremely straightforward in the sense that "you need stuff to build stuff," and "complex" in the places it has no reason to be. You could get the same kind of "complexity" this system offers by shopping online with your system language set to Iroquois, forcing you to flip back and forth between what you want to do and a translation site, or else memorizing the specific terms you need to know ahead of time.