new patch, very rares, sideways conversion... not!
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2011-04-26 13:30 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
But... that's not what it's telling him. The game is telling you that in order to side convert a Living Relic, you need a Living Relic.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
The game is telling him that the recipe for, say, a Living Relic, requires a Living Relic.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Originally Posted by TrueMetal
I looked for about 2 minutes at the screenshot in the OP thinking that I was being especially dense for not seeing the goof/funny in it. Then I read a good part of the thread only to come to the conclusion that there wasn't actually anything wrong with the screenshot, and that I wasn't the one being dense...
... Yes. Or no. It was simple the very first time I saw it too. You pick 1 of 4(or 8) items of a list and match it to the one you need, I fail to see how pen and paper are needed in that. The only thing confusing about this whole incarnate crafting system is seeing how many people are being confused by something so simple ... I agree the interface could've been a bit more fluid, but I really fail to see how the basic crafting system is to much for anyone to grasp. |
I've already commented a couple of times in the first page that, d'oh!, when I looked at the screen I saw one thing, but after a gentle nudge and a tilt of the head, I could see what I wasn't getting.
I figured the thread would die.
It didn't. Go figure.
However I am going to point out here that you can look at it this way: the things you see and quickly grasp are easy,and if someone looks and does not as quickly grasp what you do, they must be dense or stupid
or you can look at it this way: humans being don't all think the same way, reason the same way, conceptualize the same way, grasp concepts the same way. Some people think visually, some verbally, some spacially, some radially, some in a linear path. Some people are dislexic. Some are colorblind. You get the drift.
There are levels of street smarts, books smarts, and some people have no sense of humor. I deadpanned through whole episodes of Monty Python and then laughed hysterically at the exploding animals gag.
People think differently. It's not always being stupid to find something confusing that another person gets quickly.
Just an observation.
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Hey, you can spin it however you like. Based on all of the existing precedent for crafting Incarnate components -- or really anything at all -- mine is not an unreasonable reading of the situation. Quite the opposite.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
But... that's not what it's telling him. The game is telling you that in order to side convert a Living Relic, you need a Living Relic.
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We know that a window pops up when you hit the create button in this particular case, asking you what you want to convert your item into, but you've an uphill climb if you seriously wish to argue that the window in the OP's picture isn't counter-intuitive. The text in each recipe option is vague at best:
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Living Relic Sidegrade -- Converts a very rare Incarnate Component into another very rare Incarnate Component of your choice. It requires some additional Incarnate Threads to catalyze the information. Needs: 1 Living Relic and 150 Threads |
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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No, it doesn't. That's some powerfull basic reading comprehension fail right there.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
Look closer.
Hint: The game is telling him that the recipe for, say, a Living Relic, requires a Living Relic. |
Living Relic Sidegrade -- Converts a very rare Incarnate Component into another very rare Incarnate Component of your choice. It requires some additional Incarnate Threads to catalyze the information.
Needs: 1 Living Relic and 150 Threads
The text plainly says that it converts a very rare incarnate component (in this case the Living Relic, since you know, it says "Living Relic Sidegrade" at the start and "Needs: 1 Living Relic" quite clearly there at the bottom) into another of your choice. That last bit indicating that you'll get to choose which other piece of salvage you'll convert your Living Relic into.
There really isn't a lot of mental gymnastics involved here.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
Quote:
Is there any other example in CoH crafting of a recipe that offers as its target the components required to build it? Are other conversion recipes presented in that format? Is there any precedent for having multiple outcomes for a given recipe?|
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
No, it doesn't. That's some powerfull basic reading comprehension fail right there.
The text plainly says that it converts a very rare incarnate component (in this case the Living Relic, since you know, it says "Living Relic Sidegrade" at the start and "Needs: 1 Living Relic" quite clearly there at the bottom) into another of your choice. That last bit indicating that you'll get to choose which other piece of salvage you'll convert your Living Relic into. There really isn't a lot of mental gymnastics involved here. |
If you wanna tell me that your on-first-glance reaction to that window was to read it exactly as intended, then that's one thing. If you want to tell me that anyone who reads it incorrectly, given years of contrary precedent, is an illiterate moron, then I am perfectly justified in telling you that you're an arrogant jerk.
But I wouldn't do that, because it's irrelevant even if it is true -- just as most of your contributions to this thread have been. All I'm saying is that if I didn't have forum-derived confirmation that the blurbs in those recipes are accurate, I'd have a hard time committing a Very Rare to what looks like it could be a mistake in the design.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Whether it's phrased badly or not, I find that the number of threads you have to burn to do a sidegrade REALLY irritating; especially as they gave the impression that it wouldn't need many.
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I don't call 150 threads, some; I call 150 threads a LOT. Quite a few of us don't have the time to spend hours doing the same 2 sodding trials again and again and again, to get enough threads to sidegrade, you know. Quit turning CoH into WoW!
| We will be adding free downwards conversions of higher rarity Incarnate Components to your choice of a lower tier, as well as sidegrade conversions of Incarnate Components to your choice of another component in the same rarity tier for the additional cost of some Incarnate Threads. This will be coming in a near-future patch. |
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Quote:
How often do you really think you'll need to make use of this feature?
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Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
I don't call 150 threads, some; I call 150 threads a LOT. Quite a few of us don't have the time to spend hours doing the same 2 sodding trials again and again and again, to get enough threads to sidegrade, you know. Quit turning CoH into WoW! |
@Demobot
Also on Steam
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Considering I've never HAD a very rare drop, probably never. Not the point, though. Sideways conversion should be free.
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Originally Posted by Demobot
How often do you really think you'll need to make use of this feature?
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@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Quote:
Don't think so. Nope. Nope. But that's hardly relevant. There's hasn't been a sidegrade recipe before either.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
Is there any other example in CoH crafting of a recipe that offers as its target the components required to build it? Are other conversion recipes presented in that format? Is there any precedent for having multiple outcomes for a given recipe?
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If you wanna tell me that your on-first-glance reaction to that window was to read it exactly as intended, then that's one thing. If you want to tell me that anyone who reads it incorrectly, given years of contrary precedent, is an illiterate moron, then I am perfectly justified in telling you that you're an arrogant jerk. But I wouldn't do that, because it's irrelevant even if it is true -- just as most of your contributions to this thread have been. All I'm saying is that if I didn't have forum-derived confirmation that the blurbs in those recipes are accurate, I'd have a hard time committing a Very Rare to what looks like it could be a mistake in the design. |
I didn't call anyone an 'illiterate moron'. I just said you failed at reading comprehension. Which you did. But that's not the main issue. I read stuff wrong from time to time too.
What really bugs me (and this is a pet peave of mine, not just here but everywhere) is that people read something and then interpret something in a way so that it clearly, obviously doesn't make any sense. As you apparently did. But instead of thinking things through and going, "hmm, that doesn't make any sense, where did I go wrong?" they immediatly fly off to start whining (on the forums in this case) that stuff doesn't make sense. Instead of using their brain for a bit.
That's the issue I have. I'm not saying people don't have any brains, I'm complaining that people always fail to use it.
If that makes me a jerk, than so be it. I can live with that.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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Objectivly it isn't much, it just 10% of the actual thread cost of the salvage piece. What's really the issue, imo, is the pittiful return you get on turning stuff into threads.
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Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan
Whether it's phrased badly or not, I find that the number of threads you have to burn to do a sidegrade REALLY irritating; especially as they gave the impression that it wouldn't need many.
I don't call 150 threads, some; I call 150 threads a LOT. Quite a few of us don't have the time to spend hours doing the same 2 sodding trials again and again and again, to get enough threads to sidegrade, you know. Quit turning CoH into WoW! |
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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There are breakdown recipes. There are conversion recipes. Up until this point, the phrase, "of your choice" has meant that you select the appropriate recipe from a list of options -- just like the list of options pictured in the OP, in fact. It has never meant, and there's no good reason to assume it means, that you'll get an entirely new window to pop up with a list of further options -- only after you've tossed your Very Rare component and 150 threads into the ether, no less.|
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
Don't think so. Nope. Nope. But that's hardly relevant. There's hasn't been a sidegrade recipe before either.
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Unlike a breakdown, the term Sidegrade doesn't unambiguously convey that you'll be using the target component to exchange for another. If the blurb wanted to be totally clear, it would have said something like, "Converts a Living Relic into another Very Rare Component of your choice." Preferably, it would go on to lay out that there would be another menu later.
Would that make the description pedantic? Perhaps. But it would also ensure that people weren't taking a leap of faith on the vague assurance of a three word phrase ("of your choice") that the devs had introduced an entirely new wrinkle to the crafting interface. Regardless, after years of reading these recipes, there's an understandable tendency to skip straight to the requirements. The blurbs have never been terribly elucidating. Power descriptions in general have been notoriously inaccurate, vague, or outright misleading in the past. (Go, go, four-year-out-of-date Unyielding-roots-you description.)
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| Ooh, I like those clever word games where you can insult a person and then in the same stroke pretend you didn't really, because you never would do something like that. Moral highground, yo! |
Your entire premise in your first post was a distortion of the opposition's viewpoint -- that we're all so terribly befuddled by the Incarnate crafting system in general. Not once, to my recollection, have you even attempted to defend or even explain why there have to be multiple redundant components within the same tier, why those components follow no obvious naming conventions, why choosing the wrong one should incur a penalty that means nothing in the long run -- because there aren't any meaningful choices with the Incarnate crafting system; given enough time, you can craft every single power if you so desire.
I didn't fail at reading comprehension. I laughed at first glance, muttered at second glance, and said on the very first page that the picture in the OP was just another counter-intuitive wrinkle in an Incarnate crafting system that is needlessly complicated to begin with.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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This. |
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
What's really the issue, imo, is the pittiful return you get on turning stuff into threads.
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Its a complete joke. Dev's nerf AE farms which people do for cash and tickets, but the only way to get threads is to farm their content over and over. I really wish they would have held this back until there were other ways to gain threads. Switch the sewer trial to threads and add thread drops to TF of the week. Cant be that damn hard.
My view:
The new incarnate salvage is not connected in any way to the trials in question, you can't get a piece of salvage from performing a task that conceptually matches the salvage (E.G. Nictus Essence from the ITF). Hence the salvage new identities are conceptually bankrupt.
IMHO unless there are trials that actually tie to these identities the salvage there is not good reason to have anything other than (something like):
Incarnate Thread
Incarnate Weave (Common)
Tellurian Swatch (Uncommon)
Whole Cloth of All Things (Rare)
Paradigmatic Tapestry (V Rare)
And then we shape those directly into the things we want.
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More or less. The Alpha components all match the number of tasks you can do in order to obtain the components. There are 6 commons because there are 4 task forces, a trial, and merits you can use to get them. There is only one rare because you only obtain it one way, the WST (although technically the MKSF counts, it's a one-off and only for one side). There's only one VR because you can't earn it; you have to convert up.|
Originally Posted by Serva_Obscura
My view:
The new incarnate salvage is not connected in any way to the trials in question, you can't get a piece of salvage from performing a task that conceptually matches the salvage (E.G. Nictus Essence from the ITF). Hence the salvage new identities are conceptually bankrupt. IMHO unless there are trials that actually tie to these identities the salvage there is not good reason to have anything other than (something like): Incarnate Thread Incarnate Weave (Common) Tellurian Swatch (Uncommon) Whole Cloth of All Things (Rare) Paradigmatic Tapestry (V Rare) And then we shape those directly into the things we want. |
As there's only one way to earn all the new components, it would make more sense if there was only one of each. It serves as much point as making 7 alternatives to the Favor of the Well when you combine Notices -- literally none. Only existing to confuse players.
If we somehow get more ways to earn Judgement components in the future I might shut my trap. But I seriously doubt we'll get enough content to justify having 8 commons, 4 uncommons, 4 rares, and 4 very rares.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Ouch. So I'm a whiner?|
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
What really bugs me (and this is a pet peave of mine, not just here but everywhere) is that people read something and then interpret something in a way so that it clearly, obviously doesn't make any sense. As you apparently did. But instead of thinking things through and going, "hmm, that doesn't make any sense, where did I go wrong?" they immediatly fly off to start whining (on the forums in this case) that stuff doesn't make sense. Instead of using their brain for a bit.
That's the issue I have. I'm not saying people don't have any brains, I'm complaining that people always fail to use it. If that makes me a jerk, than so be it. I can live with that. |
Thanks for reading all my posts in this thread (I'm the original poster) and then making your statement. Because I do that. I'm sure you can easily find 50 threads I've started where I flew off half cocked to whine to the forums instead of using my brain. :P
It sounds as if your issue is a generalization that you believe. Whether in any given case or not it happens to be true, you might be tempted to fit the facts to suit your belief.
Ain't we all just human.
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So I take it you haven't noticed yet that you can also make Alpha abilities out of trial salvage rather than TF components and Notice/Favor.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
More or less. The Alpha components all match the number of tasks you can do in order to obtain the components. There are 6 commons because there are 4 task forces, a trial, and merits you can use to get them. There is only one rare because you only obtain it one way, the WST (although technically the MKSF counts, it's a one-off and only for one side). There's only one VR because you can't earn it; you have to convert up.
As there's only one way to earn all the new components, it would make more sense if there was only one of each. It serves as much point as making 7 alternatives to the Favor of the Well when you combine Notices -- literally none. Only existing to confuse players. If we somehow get more ways to earn Judgement components in the future I might shut my trap. But I seriously doubt we'll get enough content to justify having 8 commons, 4 uncommons, 4 rares, and 4 very rares. |
There are ways to get random uncommon and rare trial components that you can't control: completing the badge objectives in the new trials, and getting the mastery badge, respectively. If there's a way to get a random very rare component - say, a "Physical Incarnate Mastery" or "Psychic Incarnate Mastery" badge that you get for mastering all the trials that grant a particular type of XP - the sidegrade cost makes a little sense. (Are the random uncommon/rares split up depending on which trial you get the badge in?)
And with talk about non-trial ways to get threads, I could easily see a pull from the random common components, or a smaller subset, as a result of completing a safeguard/mayhem type of mission assortment for Prometheus.
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Not only did I notice it, I wrote a guide about it. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=257011|
Originally Posted by GlaziusF
So I take it you haven't noticed yet that you can also make Alpha abilities out of trial salvage rather than TF components and Notice/Favor.
There are ways to get random uncommon and rare trial components that you can't control: completing the badge objectives in the new trials, and getting the mastery badge, respectively. If there's a way to get a random very rare component - say, a "Physical Incarnate Mastery" or "Psychic Incarnate Mastery" badge that you get for mastering all the trials that grant a particular type of XP - the sidegrade cost makes a little sense. (Are the random uncommon/rares split up depending on which trial you get the badge in?) And with talk about non-trial ways to get threads, I could easily see a pull from the random common components, or a smaller subset, as a result of completing a safeguard/mayhem type of mission assortment for Prometheus. |
The random rewards are a great example of why there shouldn't be different components. If you get a component you can't use, you have to pay to change it to one you can.
I'll reconsider my opinion if and when we get non-trial ways to get stuff. Until then, it's still dumb.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Quite a few. The wording seems remarkably similar to me.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
Are other conversion recipes presented in that format?
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Just a warning. When I first encounted these conversion options I wasn't clear on how they worked so I clicked the Create button just to take a look. The problem is that once the conversion options list is displayed there is no way to change your mind and back out of it. There is a Choose Nothing button, but clicking it loses your ingredients for the conversion.
Please Devs, change the Choose Nothing button to a Changed my Mind button that takes you back without destroying your conversion ingredients.
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LOL, score one for blind faith in new features based on ambiguous phrasing.
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Originally Posted by Indiramourning
Just a warning. When I first encounted these conversion options I wasn't clear on how they worked so I clicked the Create button just to take a look. The problem is that once the conversion options list is displayed there is no way to change your mind and back out of it. There is a Choose Nothing button, but clicking it loses your ingredients for the conversion.
Please Devs, change the Choose Nothing button to a Changed my Mind button that takes you back without destroying your conversion ingredients. |
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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It seems like, if you're rewarded with uncommons, you seem to have a full list of any uncommon to choose from. Things wouldn't be any different if they just watered things down to "generic common" "generic uncommon" "generic rare" and "generic very rare..." except that people wouldn't have the problem of accidentally selecting the wrong one.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Not only did I notice it, I wrote a guide about it. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=257011
The random rewards are a great example of why there shouldn't be different components. If you get a component you can't use, you have to pay to change it to one you can. I'll reconsider my opinion if and when we get non-trial ways to get stuff. Until then, it's still dumb. |
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I've seen this, and actually done some conversions (fewer times than the fingers on my right hand).|
Originally Posted by StarGeek
Quite a few. The wording seems remarkably similar to me.
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It's similar, yes, but there is a difference that now that I have your example, makes it obvious, to me anyway, why I tripped.
The Incarnate Sidegrade text:
Living Relic SidegradeYour salvage conversion screen text:
Converts a very rare Incarnate Component into another very rare
Incarnate Component of your choice. It requires some additional Incarnate Threads to catalyse the transformation.
Aberrant Tech Salvage Conversion Brain Storming [Level 1]
Converts Aberrant Tech Salvage into Brain Storm Ideas.
The first example says, Converts nonspecific item into another nonspecific item of your choice.
The second says, Converts this specific named thing into that specific named thing.
It wasn't clear to me at first whether the item listed in the title was what you were converting or what you wanted to get.
In the salvage example screen, there's no ambiguity. In the Incarnate conversion screen there is.
I'm not arguing that the meaning can't be parsed, in fact I'm arguing nothing. I feel dumb that I didn't get it. However, it would have been extremely simple for the dev who created that screen to make the Incarnate conversion as clear as the Salvage conversion, simply by writing the text the same way.
I.E.
Living Relic Sidegrade
Converts a very rare Living Relic Incarnate Component into a different very rare Incarnate Component of your choice. It requires some additional Incarnate Threads to catalyse the transformation.
I have a feeling the reason for the difference was probably because someone was in a hurry and wanted to copy-paste without making a simple edit per line.
Thanks for the example.
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Just my 2 cents on the new incarnate salvage. I honestly think they main reason there are several different components at each tier, particularly common and uncommon, is because its become an expected practice. Even with base items which came out before IOs you needed different salvage for different things. If you consider base salvage, IO salvage, alpha components and the new thread components the only odd group is alpha components because its the only one with a single rare and very rare salvage (at least I believe so, I am not quite so familiar with base salvage anymore).
Honestly, the variety of components doesn't bother me at all, but that's probably because I'm one of those people that likes to read guides from beta and participate in it when I can before its ever released live, so I have a good idea what to expect. People that prefer to play new systems on the fly though probably found this new system to be a minor nightmare; however, I can only imagine these same people had similar problems with the alpha slot and IOs when they were first released and they either adapted and learned or didn't use the system. The system certainly isn't perfect, but it is manageable after some use. If I could change one thing it would be the ability to convert the rare and very rare well components from alpha directly into one of the new rare or very rare thread components, but without the 100 million and 400 million inf cost you have when making them from scratch - afterall you can only get one well drop a week besides the new villian TF, and you can only get that well drop once.
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Fixed that for you. |
Originally Posted by momentary_grace
I.E.
Living Relic Sidegrade |
@FloatingFatMan
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Next time a rare drops in a trial, I will happily inform everyone that I received a [Dynamic Sugarcane]. The very rare, of course, will be the [Omega Waffle].