Issue 6 Lies, Issue 20 Frustrations, and TIMING
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2011-04-13 17:02 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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They HAVE, in the past, communicated with players even when they were busy. BaBs and Castle were great for this. They HAVE, in the past, come onto the forums and directly responded to player concerns and questions; even if the answer was "no, we're not doing that" it was still an answer. PAX and the webcasts reach fewer players than the forums do. Most of us come here to voice our concerns, and the lack of developer response to these concerns makes a lot of people think they don't care. And that's just bad PR, no matter how many Producers' letters and webcasts you put out.
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Originally Posted by Psycho_Sarah
Now I have said it before, and I say it again. Our Devs ROCK! They have come to the boards. They have been open about things in the game. They have done the PAX thing, and the webcasts. So they have a history of communicating with the player base. Why they are quiet now? Maybe they are busy.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
First to the OP: 11/30/2010-04/05/2011. That's 4 months and 5 days. Pretty generous rounding up there to get to 5 months, no? And it isn't really any longer than previous years. The December holidays slow development down. This is why we get the Winter and Valentine Events right on top of each other, to give us something to do to distract us, and is also why the first Issue of a calendar year pretty much always comes after the longest gap.
11/28/06-05/01/07: Issue 8 to Issue 9 gap.
11/28/07-05/20/08: Issue 11 to Issue 12 gap.
12/02/08-04/07/09: Issue 13 to Issue 14 gap.
09/15/09-04/28/10: Issue 16 to Issue 17 gap. (actually the longest gap in Issues since the game was released.)
That last one was an outlier, as proven by this year's 4 month and 5 day gap. This one is tied for the shortest since the 2004-2005 gap, which was also a special circumstance, since Issue 3 got held up by lengthy balancing debates, and ran into the holiday vacation time, so it sat on Test for 2 weeks in the same form that went live because nobody was going to pay the programmers who could fix any showstoppers holiday pay.
About ED and subscription losses: CoV did far more than just cover the losses to ED. It pushed the reported subscriber numbers for the quarter in which it was released to the highest that this game would ever see. Rather than merely covering the loss from ED, it increased the subscriptions by 33%, from 150k to 200k.
"I wish my life was a non-stop Hollywood movie show,
A fantasy world of celluloid villains and heroes."
I like the incarnate stuff... I have ran it several times... easy as any other TF... I have found a league anytime I have wanted one on Liberty sever ( during peak play hours )...
I have at least t1 slotted in every incarnate ability thats available now... on one toon that is...
I like teh idea that certain level shifts only apply during trials... I was worried about the current lvl 50 stuff... thats answers my worries...
I forget where I was going with this... Im not feeling very well... bad Burger King I think...
im going to bed.. :P
No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded...
"The potato goes in the FRONT."
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I think this is a bit of an unfair expectation of the devs. You may or may not remember, but BaB and Castle came under a LOT of fire when they came onto the forums, and I can't talk say definitely but I doubt that player communication was a part of the contract. It's something they did because they WANTED to. The new devs are still communicating which is nice, and they're doing so in their own idiosyncratic way. The Q&A's don't hit everyone, maybe, but they record some of them and put them up when they can. |
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
They HAVE, in the past, communicated with players even when they were busy. BaBs and Castle were great for this. They HAVE, in the past, come onto the forums and directly responded to player concerns and questions; even if the answer was "no, we're not doing that" it was still an answer. PAX and the webcasts reach fewer players than the forums do. Most of us come here to voice our concerns, and the lack of developer response to these concerns makes a lot of people think they don't care. And that's just bad PR, no matter how many Producers' letters and webcasts you put out.
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Would I like them to communicate more? Sure. But they suffered a lot of verbal jabs (and to be fair a lot of support too), and it wasn't a part of their jobs to communicate with us. They felt it was important to be a part of the community and so they made themselves a part. The current developers are still a part of the community but they're a part in a different way - and to date a far more formal and moderated way - than BaB or Castle were. But that's the point - they're not BaB or Castle, and we shouldn't expect them to act like it, nor judge them through the lens of their predecessors. The game is in their hands now - let's judge them or damn them on their accomplishments and failures, not on what those who came before them did.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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It would appear that their previous interactions with players generated something of a sense of entitlement.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
They HAVE, in the past, communicated with players even when they were busy. BaBs and Castle were great for this. They HAVE, in the past, come onto the forums and directly responded to player concerns and questions; even if the answer was "no, we're not doing that" it was still an answer. PAX and the webcasts reach fewer players than the forums do. Most of us come here to voice our concerns, and the lack of developer response to these concerns makes a lot of people think they don't care. And that's just bad PR, no matter how many Producers' letters and webcasts you put out.
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Cancelled in Three - MA ID #34608. Please play and comment! Top 10 placing in Projectionist's MA contest!
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This pretty much sums up my desires too. I'm glad that there is some endgame content even if (to my eyes) it seems like dev endorsed farming. And I have no problem with them developing such content as long as it isn't at the cost of all the other things I love about the game. And that includes such things as free costume options, customisation and story arcs that aren't about the Well of Awful Plots. |
Originally Posted by Sermon
I am very happy with i20, but I would prefer for the next issue not to advance the incarnate system except in giving us solo and team-sized options for unlocking said content without significant penalties (and additional 8+ raids if possible). Additionally, mid level content, powersets/proliferation, plus more power customization.
Really, I would be happy for the next several issues to be along this line. I have plenty of work ahead of me, and I am happy to put the time in, but I want to feel like i can take a step back and play my non 50s without feeling like my mains are getting left behind. I expect we will get an announcement around the anniversary, detailing the direction of development over the coming months. That said, it would be reassuring for the devs to pop in and say that solo and small team incarnate advancement is on the way. If it isn't coming in the near future, the devs should seriously reconsider this. I don't care if incarnate content is supposed to be reserved for the big story, players should have reasonable access to the system (much more reasonable than the current implementation, even for the alpha slot) regardless of their level 50+ playstyle. |
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People hated Issue 6 because it was a big nerf and if there's one thing I know about MMO's it's that nerfs always go down like a lead brick, especially if everyone is getting hit by it.
Issue 20 brought in content that's fairly popular. I've teamed with more new people in the past week than I ever have before and the vast majority of them seem to be having fun. So trying to make Issue 20 out as a huge mistake is just not ringing true, some people don't like it, those people are in a minority.
Yes it sucks to feel you're not being catered too, but as the old adage goes, you can't please everyone. I'm sure they'll loosen up the Incarnate block for small team and solo players with time, but they shouldn't stall the drive they've got going to focus purely on that. Next Issue is going to have new Incarnate abilities in it, pretty much a dead cert.
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Tangent incoming:|
Originally Posted by peterpeter
ED had a dramatic impact on the effectiveness enhancements. It meant that every single character was less powerful across the board.
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ED did not make "every single character" less powerful. As it was a decrease in the effectiveness of stacked enhancements, it only affected characters with stacked enhancements, which wasn't everybody. It may or may not have been most everybody, I don't know enough to say, but it did skip over a few people (myself among them) due to their "sub-standard slotting" by the standards of the time. This discrepancy in experiences was a large part of what created the direct clashes on the forums, if I remember correctly.
That said, I do agree with the general spirit of your post. ED is not comparable to Incarnates. Its impact on game philosophy may have been of an equal size, but ED was, at its heart, a balancing mechanic, and one rooted in fairly simple absolutes. The arguments for both ED and the GDN revolved around the the redundancy of certain ATs, namely buff-centric ones, as other characters were reaching their own caps before outside buffs became relevant. As such, it could be argued that the change was necessary.
In fact, I'm not sure anyone ever argued that ED was a GOOD change, in the sense that no-one specifically wanted to nerf other people. But even those of us who agreed with the NEED for the change still acknowledged that it was a necessary EVIL. I remember the old arguments that ED didn't open up more options, but instead eliminated options, but the fact of the matter was the primary driving force behind this change was accessibility of content, specifically said accessibility for "support" ATs. There has long been a game design practice to design some ATs with more self-sufficiency but less impact to a team and other ATs with less self-sufficiency but greater ability to act as force miltipliers. For this design to work, force multiplication needs to be relevant, and said ATs need to be desired on teams, which mandates that "other" ATs face situations where support is desirable.
In short, ED was a change targeted at accessibility, even if it was the closest we've come to a slash-n-burn approach to achieving it. I'm not sure I can make quite as strong an argument for Incarnates and their current balance, mostly because the upsides and downsides to the system eventually resolve to player preferences, rather than solutions to systemic problems. In simplistic terms, "support ATs are unnecessary" is a provable problem, whereas "we have no end game" is a subjective problem. They aren't quite comparable.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I just wish they'd finally give the Power Customization treatment of Bright/Dark/Color Tintable to Pool Powers, Auras, Patron Power Pools, and Ancillary Power Pools with a NoEffects version where applicable. I'm looking at you, Combat Jumping/Super Jumping. I'm tired of having urine vapor coming out of my hands and feet every time I turn on either of those powers.
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Originally Posted by AmazingMOO
This has been something that Cryptic and NCSoft have never been very good about. Parts of the game get implemented and then neglected for a very long time. Occasionally there's a push for them, but the teams have never been very clear about how much effort they're going to expend on a development direction. It took a LONG time for the admittance that City Vault wasn't going to happen. It was only very recently that we heard confirmation that the Gladiator system was more or less dead.
That kind of quiet is a disservice to the players. |
Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP
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Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
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This...is true. |
Originally Posted by Psycho_Sarah
The Devs don't have to talk to you. The Devs don't have to tell you anything. The Devs don't have to get your approval. It's their game. It's their job. The only say in any matter about the game that you have, is your $15 a month. Now, some people think that this gives them some kind of right to say what should be in the game. It doesn't. |
I call it "the customer is always right" syndrome. People think that because they are paying for something it gives them the right to dictate what that something entails.
McDonalds doesn't need our approval to come up with a new sandwich. The only decision we get to make about it is whether or not we like it and whether or not we will buy it. I cite as an example....the McRib. If I had any say in it, that thing never would have seen the light of day. But it did, because McDonalds doesn't have to seek my approval and there are other people that like it. (can't imagine why)
The game is much the same way. The devs can do whatever the hell they want, and the only say we have in it is whether or not we will continue to pay for it. They're pretty good about listening to our feedback and trying to give us what we want, but they don't actually have to do that.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I think part of the ED/GDN thing was how it was handled. GDN happens, then 'there'll be no more grand changes to powers' from Jack, technically true, ED was a grand change to enhancements, but in spirit? Enhancements affect Powers, and after people had worked on changing their build to cope with GDN as best they could, they were then hit by ED which destroyed their efforts.
Couple this with how they were trying to suppress knowledge of ED with the CoV NDA, it all seemed rather underhanded. ED and GDN did need to happen, but it happened in a way that was not conductive to player > Developer trust.
Currently my main issues with CoH are the following:
The Neuron Effect - Release something, leave it, go to next shiny. Power Customization is still unfinished, with no support for Power Pools, Ancillary Power Pools. PVP was changed and then left in i13. There's been no new arena maps since the Pocket D cage was added. Ancient Rome zone.
Reluctance to power tinker - There's many powers that have been left for years in forms that mean they are relegated to being skip-only, pretty much. Others are just woefully underpowered, and some power sets could do with a bit of love. (I'm looking at you, Fire Manipulation/Ice Manipulation) There's also the Cottage Rule too, that I never quite got why it was there.
A lack of new, non-booster/pack costume pieces - I'll sell someone elses soul for the new IDF armour that isn't level gated/locked to a single character. It's good that the Vanguard Pack is coming out, now I can only hope for a Roman pack.
The 'New' over 'Revamp' mindset - CoH's old zones and content are ancient. And it shows. But there's always been that "We'd rather make something new than go back to this, it'd take the same amount of effort." vibe when it's come up before. We have a way of generating custom content that hasn't been used for competitions. "This arc is old and you don't like it? Send in your AE-made versions, we can hold a vote/contest to get something neat to replace it with."
And some zones just need something to do rather than new geometry. Perez, Creys, Astoria.
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Considering one of the things that set City of Heroes apart from other MMOs once upon a time was the level of developer communication and developer response, I find this position to be somewhat disingenuous. Do they HAVE to take feedback and communicate with the players? No, not really. It's their business run by their rules. They could choose to walk away and never touch the game again and there won't be anything we can do to change it.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The game is much the same way. The devs can do whatever the hell they want, and the only say we have in it is whether or not we will continue to pay for it. They're pretty good about listening to our feedback and trying to give us what we want, but they don't actually have to do that.
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However, any development studio is in this business to make money, and satisfied customers tend to be much looser with their purse strings. No, the developers don't HAVE to be communicative, but I still think they might want to. It helps more than most people think.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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That's why I said in the part of my post that you quoted: "They're pretty good about listening to our feedback and trying to give us what we want, but they don't actually have to do that." |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Considering one of the things that set City of Heroes apart from other MMOs once upon a time was the level of developer communication and developer response, I find this position to be somewhat disingenuous. Do they HAVE to take feedback and communicate with the players? No, not really. It's their business run by their rules. They could choose to walk away and never touch the game again and there won't be anything we can do to change it.
However, any development studio is in this business to make money, and satisfied customers tend to be much looser with their purse strings. No, the developers don't HAVE to be communicative, but I still think they might want to. It helps more than most people think. |
In essence, they DO listen to us, and they communicate a lot better than the devs of some games, even though there is nothing actually obligating them to do so. And even though they've been communicating less lately, they STILL communicate better than some devs.
Where that falls apart is when players start thinking that because they do indeed listen to us, it means they have to do whatever we say. And that part just isn't true in the slightest.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Pretty much this. I get where the OP is coming from partially (not the part about the comparison to ED though) but based on past experience (even if a few of the old devs are gone) I doubt the devs will give answers on issue release info when stuff is not set in stone.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
That's why I said in the part of my post that you quoted: "They're pretty good about listening to our feedback and trying to give us what we want, but they don't actually have to do that."
In essence, they DO listen to us, and they communicate a lot better than the devs of some games, even though there is nothing actually obligating them to do so. And even though they've been communicating less lately, they STILL communicate better than some devs. Where that falls apart is when players start thinking that because they do indeed listen to us, it means they have to do whatever we say. And that part just isn't true in the slightest. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Issue six had the highest number of subscribers initially, but before Issue seven could be rolled out the largest exodus of the game took place during issue six. |
Originally Posted by Vanden
Which issue 6? The one that brought in hundreds of new players with the brand new expansion? That one? That's the one you think caused a dip in subscriptions?
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Earnings
2004: 31,475 (Only 3 quarters)
2005: 34,265
2006: 25,016
2007: 23,446
2008: 24,217
2009: 22,909
2010: 15,787
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Here's my stance on this: There was a time when the first thing I'd check every time I set foot in the forums was the Dev Digest. I'd follow Castle and BABs to threads even when I had no interest in the subject matter (like Defender balance) just because it was interesting to see their personal take on things and to glean a bit more background into the inner workings of both the game systems and the company. Everything I know about power customization comes solely from what BABs has told us over the years, and he said a lot on the subject.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Where that falls apart is when players start thinking that because they do indeed listen to us, it means they have to do whatever we say. And that part just isn't true in the slightest.
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I can't recall the last time I actually cared to look at the Dev Digest. Must have been weeks. I do check it occasionally, when my thoughts wander to "I wonder if there isn't anything new in there?" Sure enough, there isn't, or if there is, there's like, one post, and it's just support information about how to run the NCsoft Launcher or that certain bugs are known and so. We used to get several developer posts a day. These days we're lucky to get one a week.
When BABs or Castle sat down to explain why certain changes were made and why others weren't, I could see their side of it. Even if I didn't always agree with either of them, I could still see their side and respect it. Sometimes I'd argue with them, sometimes I'd shrug and move on, but in either case it was a lot better than "We don't HAVE to tell you what we're doing and why we're doing it, so we WON'T!" The so-called developer addresses are a good start, but they're publicity stunts more than anything else. BABs and Castle were the guys who felt like they were posting their personal thoughts, not PR spin.
To be honest, I was really looking forward to seeing David Nakayama post more. The guy had a way with words, and he was a master at keeping to a civil discussion even in a heated argument. I really enjoyed his posts, but I don't remember how long it's been now that we haven't seen a single one from him. And that's if we count that one instance where we bugged him to post more, so he posted about four times and went back into hiding.
The developers don't have to tell us anything, but I firmly believe that they SHOULD. Not because they owe us anything, and not because we demand it, but because I feel it's at the very least good business. And, to be honest, they simply haven't been doing that, lately. If you've seen me compare Paragon Studios with EA Games, that's why - they're starting to come off like a silent game studio that cannot be appealed to. Again - communication counts for a lot, and communication has been sad, sad, sad for several Issues now. And I'm getting a little tired of excusing them with "Well, they're probably busy." I know they are, but BABs and Castle were no less busy and they found time to post just the same.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Fair enough. I was initially going to write that it reduced the effectiveness of every power with more than three enhancements of the same type slotted, but that seemed wordy and it ignored the fact that ED doesn't really affect DO's and TO's. So I trimmed a lot of words and a little accuracy.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Tangent incoming:
ED did not make "every single character" less powerful. |
On the topic of dev communication on the boards, while I appreciate it when it happens, if I were a dev, I wouldn't want to put up with us. It doesn't take many loud jerks spewing invective to really ruin my day. Perhaps I'm just a delicate flower, but you wouldn't catch me on these forums with a red name, especially if folks are angry about something (and when aren't they?)
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
Well we know there are the underground Hami and Anti-Matter trials coming, with more trials and incarnate slots in the works most likely. Now, whether they'll release those two trials in i21 or as an i20.5 is the question.
As far as everything else goes, your guess is as good as anyone's else.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
I'm not sure there's going to be an I20.5 - I19:5 was just done to launch the WSTs and add the last 2 tiers of the Alpha slot - I20's already given us 4 complete slots, so there's not really anything left over that needs finishing off, unlike I19 that gave us only half the Alpha slot.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I thought .5's were a thing they were going forward with starting from 19.5, so we could get smaller updates at a faster rate.
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Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
that is my guess, im guessing the power station and hami will be in 20.5, maybe the thing to purchase with astral merits too.
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Not everyone is cut out for public relations, obviously. It takes a certain personality to let vitriol slide off you, or otherwise to explode in rage in dignified ways. Having people follow you from thread to thread to question your intelligence does get old fast.|
Originally Posted by peterpeter
On the topic of dev communication on the boards, while I appreciate it when it happens, if I were a dev, I wouldn't want to put up with us. It doesn't take many loud jerks spewing invective to really ruin my day. Perhaps I'm just a delicate flower, but you wouldn't catch me on these forums with a red name, especially if folks are angry about something (and when aren't they?)
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However, I don't feel having disconnected community reps is entirely the answer, because it's just not quite the same when most of what a community rep answers with is "I don't know, but I'll try to find out" or "I can't do anything about it, but I'll pass on the problem." It starts feeling like you're not communicating with the development, so much as with their bodyguards. Even if we approach this logically and accept that community reps do exactly as they say - which is part of their job - it still comes off as impersonal because you have no eye into what actually happens. So while it's reasonable to accept that your voice is being heard, it doesn't "feel" like it.
The reason I mention this is because there's a significant difference between a community rep saying "The team is aware of this issue and is working on it." and a developer saying "Yes, I fixed that yesterday. I'd missed that on my last pass, but it's in the queue and you'll see it with the next full build." The former feels like a form letter, whereas the latter feels like a fly-on-the-wall look directly into the inner workings.
I'm not sure what the solution is, other than finding thick-skinned developers who can mix it up with the worst of us, but that direct intervention really, really helps.
Personal example: I've spent essentially five years whining about wanting a muscular female texture, getting more and more bitter the more I had to bicker with homophobes about it. Then David Nakayama comes out and says "You know... That's not too bad! I'll see what I can do." Good enough for me. That was, what, six months ago? A year ago? I don't remember, and I don't really care, because that one post was good enough to keep me patient essentially indefinitely. Or at least for a few years.
The more levels of communication you have between developers and community, the more it feels like the people in charge are just being polite and giving you the "your call is important to us, please hold" treatment. And that's bad for morale.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I think it's pretty much accepted that "Soon" in MMORPG terms means "Within the next 1-2 years, hopefully."
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Unless they are talking about PVP then you need to add a "zero" to those numbers ie 10-20 years!|
Originally Posted by Arilou
I think it's pretty much accepted that "Soon" in MMORPG terms means "Within the next 1-2 years, hopefully."
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I cannont agree that i20 is in any way, shape or form is anything like what happened with ED and all the other changes that happened! That was a horrific time and the flame wars on the boards were legendary! We heard statements like "it was decided in a meeting before beta/launch that we should only allow one casting of pets" and yet for 4 issues all we heard is pets are working as intended(data mining shows)and balmo its on test and in production almost before we could say a word! Over and over powers are working as intended and blamo ED and GDN! This is not the case now nor even remotely the same environment. Please note that this is coming from an altoholic who rarely plays 50's and really dosnt like the fact that all incarnets are getting aoe pwrs...the new trials are fun but not for me however lots and lots of people love and i mean really love their 50's so there is nothing wrong with giving them what they want and deserve!
Speaking of deserving we really need a Carnie booster pack nao!
There may have been a little net gain but if they'd done ED without Expanshalone (stupid name and stupid idea as well, should have made it an Expansion, WoW style) then it could have been a very serious problem.
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